Gun control / Anti gun control

[Xander]

Misleading video. He's looking at "violent crime" which covers a lot of ground which would include fist fights. Let's see the same numbers specifically based on gun crimes and see how much 'worse' England and Wales compares then.

 

[TechLady]

Links/videos/rants/essays/whining by conservative think tanks and libertarian groups are no more convincing to us than it would be for YOU to be convinced by essays and the like from Mother Jones and Michael Moore. Really.

FBI data? That has some credibility. 99% of everything else you guys have posted? An instant fail as a "source" in any university class on research or critical thinking.

 

[Screwloose]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

The US is hardly the leader in homocide rate in the world ... people need to stop painting the picture like the US is the wild west and everyone is dying left and right.

 

[HFultzjr]

Links/videos/rants/essays/whining by conservative think tanks and libertarian groups are no more convincing to us than it would be for YOU to be convinced by essays and the like from Mother Jones and Michael Moore. Really.

FBI data? That has some credibility. 99% of everything else you guys have posted? An instant fail as a "source" in any university class on research or critical thinking.

Wrong......I actually agree with some of the "essay" contributed by Michael Moore posted 12/24/12.


Even "our" beloved Michael Moore has stated Gun Control is not the answer to our problems. As much as I don't agree with Michael Moore, even he gets that our society faces more problems than gun control.

I have inserted some text from a recent Michael Moore article below, along with the link to the entire article, so as not to take it out of context.

Yes, Michael Moore still promotes Gun Control, be has at last stated that there are other issues that need resolved

Text from article........

So here's my little bit of holiday cheer for you:

These gun massacres aren't going to end any time soon.

I'm sorry to say this. But deep down we both know it's true. That doesn't mean we shouldn't keep pushing forward -- after all, the momentum is on our side. I know all of us -- including me -- would love to see the president and Congress enact stronger gun laws. We need a ban on automatic AND semiautomatic weapons and magazine clips that hold more than 7 bullets. We need better background checks and more mental health services. We need to regulate the ammo, too.

But, friends, I would like to propose that while all of the above will certainly reduce gun deaths (ask Mayor Bloomberg -- it is virtually impossible to buy a handgun in New York City and the result is the number of murders per year has gone from 2,200 to under 400), it won't really bring about an end to these mass slayings and it will not address the core problem we have. Connecticut had one of the strongest gun laws in the country. That did nothing to prevent the murders of 20 small children on December 14th.

In fact, let's be clear about Newtown: the killer had no criminal record so he would never have shown up on a background check. All of the guns he used were legally purchased. None fit the legal description of an "assault" weapon. The killer seemed to have mental problems and his mother had him seek help, but that was worthless. As for security measures, the Sandy Hook school was locked down and buttoned up BEFORE the killer showed up that morning. Drills had been held for just such an incident. A lot of good that did.

And here's the dirty little fact none of us liberals want to discuss: The killer only ceased his slaughter when he saw that cops were swarming onto the school grounds -- i.e, the men with the guns. When he saw the guns a-coming, he stopped the bloodshed and killed himself. Guns on police officers prevented another 20 or 40 or 100 deaths from happening. Guns sometimes work. (Then again, there was an armed deputy sheriff at Columbine High School the day of that massacre and he couldn't/didn't stop it.)

I am sorry to offer this reality check on our much-needed march toward a bunch of well-intended, necessary -- but ultimately, mostly cosmetic-- changes to our gun laws. The sad facts are these: Other countries that have guns (like Canada, which has 7 million guns -- mostly hunting guns -- in their 12 million households) have a low murder rate. Kids in Japan watch the same violent movies and kids in Australia play the same violent video games (Grand Theft Auto was created by a British company; the UK had 58 gun murders last year in a nation of 63 million people). They simply don't kill each other at the rate that we do. Why is that? THAT is the question we should be exploring while we are banning and restricting guns: Who are we?


Link to entire article........

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/gun-violence-united-states_b_2358115.html


Another Michael Moore video showing that even he sees that there are more to the issue than Gun Control

http://www.cchrint.org/videos/videos-we-like/michael-moore/



And "Moore"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022095326


I could go on and on, but I think YOU should spend some more time checking out you're "beloved" Michael Moore. I think even he knows that Gun Control is not THE answer, but our problems are much much deeper.

Here is a Google search to get you started.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...pw.r_qf.&fp=359fc9f1eacfbfb8&biw=1366&bih=596

Enjoy the reading!

 

[NETWizz]

Ha ha ha ha ha!

Oh hey...by the way, remember when all the NRA guys said that Travon Martin would still be alive if he'd had a concealed 9mm? Me neither!

http://youtu.be/-ld4AB_aFOs

I don't remember the NRA guys ever commenting they felt Travon Martin should have been carrying. He is a criminal, a hood rat, and the last person whom I would want to be carrying a gun. Thankfully Zimmerman had the gun not Trayvon.

He would still be alive if he didn't try to beat the crap out of an armed victim...

Much of this story hasn't come out yet, but the gun wasn't at fault... Either Trayvon was at fault for assaulting Zimmerman, or Zimmerman was at fault for shooting Trayvon. Either way, the gun was just a tool.

 

[gunslinger]

When it comes to gun control you have two types of people. The ones who are controlled by the left wing media and wish to remain ignorant of actual logic or facts and the ones who actually control the media and know full well the ultimate goal is total disarmament of the people so they can do what ever they want.


Guns kill people the same way cars cause people to drive drunk and spoons make people fat. Sounds stupid when gun control "logic" is carried over to other inanimate objects doesn't it?


People want to feel good and feel like they are doing something about the problem without having to address the real issues.

 

[Xander]

Fetch the tinfoil hats, Myrtle!

When it comes to gun control you have two types of people. The ones who are controlled by the left wing media and wish to remain ignorant of actual logic or facts and the ones who actually control the media and know full well the ultimate goal is total disarmament of the people so they can do what ever they want.

Thank you. Funniest thing I've read all day. Don't worry - that didn't come across as completely paranoid and insane in any way, shape or form. You should go back to your bunker, though.... the satellites will be reading your thoughts any moment now.

 

[TechLady]

This thread:

 

[gunslinger]

Thank you. Funniest thing I've read all day. Don't worry - that didn't come across as completely paranoid and insane in any way, shape or form. You should go back to your bunker, though.... the satellites will be reading your thoughts any moment now.

Here you have an example of the first group.

 

[TechLady]

Here you have an example of the first group.

And you find personal attacks an effective method for your non-arguments?

 

[Disposable_Me]

I don't really want to read the past 17 pages, but has anyone brought up controlling ammunition sales rather than guns?

 

[TechLady]

I don't really want to read the past 17 pages, but has anyone brought up controlling ammunition sales rather than guns?

Yeah, 17 pages later I can't even remember, but I have no problem with this. You don't need a machine gun -style buttload of ammo just to kill a deer...in fact, if you really know what you're doing, you can do it with a bow and arrow, just like the natives did. They had no other methods and did just fine. It's possible. Huge clips are just not necessary.

Also, HFultzjr, if your point was to portray Michael Moore as one of your own, you are sadly mistaken. While I actually agree with what Moore wrote, he's not going to be coming to the gun nut side anytime soon. I READ his entire post, did you? Because you pasted in what I already pasted from Moore last month.

All the strenuous gun defenders here might be surprised to see the things we probably agree on with the issue if they just paused the indignant nastiness for a moment.

 

[gunslinger]

Yeah, 17 pages later I can't even remember, but I have no problem with this. You don't need a machine gun -style buttload of ammo just to kill a deer...in fact, if you really know what you're doing, you can do it with a bow and arrow, just like the natives did. They had no other methods and did just fine. It's possible. Huge clips are just not necessary.

Wow. Just wow. This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is the kind of logic being used. This is not about killing a deer. Its not about hunting either, It about my God given right that I was born with to do what makes my happy as long as its not hurting anyone else. Me owning 5 guns or 500 "machine gun" style guns as you call them is not hurting anyone, me owning 20,000 rounds of ammo is not hurting you or anyone else. You logic is completely flawed. Does you owning a car and having the right to drink at 21 automatically make you a drunk driver waiting to happen? By your logic the very act of you owning a car and the possibility of you driving it while drinking is enough reason to take those things and rights from you.


You cannot pass enough laws to the point where its imposible to hurt others. How about enforcing the laws when people do? Why is it You could get drunk and drive multiple times endangering peoples lives every single time and yet walk free?

Why is it I know family members who have been arrested on meth charges 15 times before being put away?

Yet I could saw the barral down on a shotgun to less that 18" and its an automatic 5 year in federal prison. Never hurt anyone, never threatened anyone, never endangered anyone.

 

[AlaDes]

Wow. Just wow. This is exactly what I'm talking about. This is the kind of logic being used. This is not about killing a deer. Its not about hunting either, It about my God given right that I was born with to do what makes my happy as long as its not hurting anyone else. Me owning 5 guns or 500 "machine gun" style guns as you call them is not hurting anyone, me owning 20,000 rounds of ammo is not hurting you or anyone else. You logic is completely flawed. Does you owning a car and having the right to drink at 21 automatically make you a drunk driver waiting to happen? By your logic the very act of you owning a car and the possibility of you driving it while drinking is enough reason to take those things and rights from you.


You cannot pass enough laws to the point where its imposible to hurt others. How about enforcing the laws when people do? Why is it You could get drunk and drive multiple times endangering peoples lives every single time and yet walk free?

Why is it I know family members who have been arrested on meth charges 15 times before being put away?

Yet I could saw the barral down on a shotgun to less that 18" and its an automatic 5 year in federal prison. Never hurt anyone, never threatened anyone, never endangered anyone.

The last paragraph here is not only the truth, but also reminds me of my criminal justice classes in college. What's the difference in crack and cocain? Other than the way you use it, not much. However, you can get more jail time for possessing or distributing crack because of how our legal system is constructed. Of course, there's more to the crack versus cocain issue than I care to talk about, but my point is this: Our justice sytem is broken, not because we don't have enough laws, but because the ones we do have aren't being enforced.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I realize nobody will take the time to read this article......but it really does shine the light on the real problem...

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/15/sandy-hook-shooting-why-did-lanza-target-a-school/?iid=obnetwork

"...noted in a 2011 article in the Journal of Police Crisis Negotiations, school shooters have generally been found to 1) have a history of antisocial-personality traits, 2) suffer from mental illnesses such as depression or psychosis and 3) tend to obsess about how others, whether other individuals or society at large, have wronged them. (These conclusions are similar to the findings of a 2002 U.S. Secret Service report on school shootings.) These individuals seethe with rage and hatred and despondency, until they decide to lash out at individuals or a society they believe has done them great wrong. Mental health, as well as our failure to address it as a society, is at the core of these events."

 

[ComputerRepairTech]

I realize nobody will take the time to read this article......but it really does shine the light on the real problem...

http://ideas.time.com/2012/12/15/sandy-hook-shooting-why-did-lanza-target-a-school/?iid=obnetwork

"...noted in a 2011 article in the Journal of Police Crisis Negotiations, school shooters have generally been found to 1) have a history of antisocial-personality traits, 2) suffer from mental illnesses such as depression or psychosis and 3) tend to obsess about how others, whether other individuals or society at large, have wronged them. (These conclusions are similar to the findings of a 2002 U.S. Secret Service report on school shootings.) These individuals seethe with rage and hatred and despondency, until they decide to lash out at individuals or a society they believe has done them great wrong. Mental health, as well as our failure to address it as a society, is at the core of these events."

Theres tons of people like that...heck im like that sometimes but I understand the value of a life and thats the most important thing.

 

[Xander]

From the other angle...

When it comes to gun control you have two types of people. The ones who are controlled by the right wing media and wish to remain ignorant of actual logic or facts and the ones who actually control the media and know full well the ultimate goal is justification of arming of the citizenry so they can go into foreign lands for oil and murder hundreds of thousands of civilians.

If you have a single gun in your house, you can say your are protecting your family. If you feel the need to stockpile weapons, you are preparing to kill people; you just haven't decided who yet.

 

[gunslinger]

When it comes to gun control you have two types of people. The ones who are controlled by the right wing media and wish to remain ignorant of actual logic or facts and the ones who actually control the media and know full well the ultimate goal is justification of arming of the citizenry so they can go into foreign lands for oil and murder hundreds of thousands of civilians.

If you have a single gun in your house, you can say your are protecting your family. If you feel the need to stockpile weapons, you are preparing to kill people; you just haven't decided who yet.

Good try at baiting. History disagrees with you. The numbers also disagree with you. You grew up in a different place with completely different values. That I can understand. But don't try to act like you are taking the high ground on this. I have the right to own anything and do anything I choose as long as its not hurting anyone else. Me owning guns is not hurting anyone. You logic is flawed. Again, you are trying to say its the thing and not the person that is evil.

Liberty is the freedom from government to live how you want as long as you do not harm others and take responsibility for your actions. The Bill of Rights does not give me any rights, all it does is recognize that I was born with certain rights that the government cannot take away.

Now If I have you pegged and I think I do. You will next try to side step anything I have said, and try to piss me off so you can "show people what all us Irrational gunowners are like"

 

[Xander]

Yup, wave your supposed "Bill of Rights" like a flag. Salute it. You can hide behind a fear of government if you want but there is no rationale for stockpiling weapons other than the eventual murder of others. Your own government made that "Bill" so that you'd all think guns are cool and they have brainwashed you successfully. So well that you don't object to the slaughter of Iraqis or Vietnamese or training Bin Laden and his guys. Yay guns! Mission accomplished.

Now, if I have you pegged and I think I do, you will go all whargarble about guns and rights and freedom and 2nd Amendment and OH!OH!OH!, about that point, need to wipe up your desk and light a cigarette.

 

[Freedom PC Solutions]

Gun control is just control of the populace, nothing more. The main reason for the second amendment is so WE can protect ourselves from ever increasing govenment power.

Here are some facts:

1. "Gun Control" only affects the law abiding. Criminals naturally disobey laws, hence the name criminal.

2. According to the FBI site on crime statistics, more people are killed with blunt objects than rifles of all types. Notice I said rifles of ALL types. This includes so called assault rifles. In 2011, 496 people were murdered with a hammer or a blunt object compare to just 323 murders that were committed with a rifle. Blunt objects also beat out the number of murders committed with a shotgun which was 356.

3. Also according to this website, handguns account for 6,220 deaths and knives account for 1,694 deaths.

4. The term assault rifle came from Hitler. It is a translation of the German word Sturmgewehr (Storm Rifle). This was in reference to their machine pistol which they used to "storm" enemy positions. The name itself instilled fear. Hence the reason it is used so frequently by politicians and the media in their subversion tactics.

5. According to the US Army. In order for a rifle to be an "assault Rifle" it must be a "short, compact, selective-fire weapon that fires a cartridge intermediate in power between submachinegun and rifle cartridges." The key word here is selective fire, meaning it can fire in full auto mode. The media will also distort the truth by calling semiauto handguns automatic handguns or auto loading handguns.

6. The second amendment was written so we would be able to defend ourselves with weapons similar to the military. If it was just muskets they were refering to then they would have said muskets and not arms.

To finish, it is my firm belief that they are after these "assault weapons" to make it easier for them to take the other weapons, take the second amendment and then take the rest of our rights. Because the second amendment guarantees us the rest of our rights.

Besides, if criminals really want weapons all they have to do is ask Eric Holder.

I almost forgot, the staunchest supporters of "gun control" (New York, California, Chicago) have the strictest gun laws but yet the most murders from rest of the states.