Toilet paper nowhere to be found

[britechguy]

True, but is that news? Especially here in the US the people's ability to deal with a real crisis has been virtually nonexistent since I was a kid, possibly longer.

I know for myself (age 57) it's definitely been since I was a child, at least. I believe my father's generation (he was born in 1919, went through the Great Depression and was enlisted for WW II) was the last that had any real ability to deal with actual crises.

One must say, though, that crises were a bit more routine in the past than they are now. The last real pandemic was over 100 years ago.

As far as preparedness goes, while things could be better, one cannot prepare for a worldwide pandemic in any meaningful sense of prepare. All the screaming now about a potential lack of ventilators, well, you don't keep reserves that can meet demands that are grossly outside typical needs. It's a waste of time and effort when there are real, immediate, and ongoing needs "in typical times" that need to be addressed, daily, in real time.

Every time I hear about the lack of testing kits I have to ask, "For a a previously unknown virus, do you think you could have had millions of kits on reserve, even if you wanted to?" There are some things, like tests for specific pathogens to give a definitive diagnosis, that can only be created after the pathogen itself, and the method to isolate its signature, are identified. The same concept applies to immunizations, too. When you have a highly novel, and very infectious, agent appear "out of the blue," which can happen, all you can do is work as quickly as human capital and available resources allow.

With regard to hand sanitizer, it is no more effective than hand washing, in fact it's generally less so. It has it's place for when you are in a situation where soap and water is not available, but that's not that many places for most of us each and every day.

I only wish there were a way to instantly impose rational behavior standards across the population as a whole. I know, chances of that are either fat or thin.

 

[phaZed]

Every time I hear about the lack of testing kits I have to ask, "For a a previously unknown virus, do you think you could have had millions of kits on reserve, even if you wanted to?

Well, maybe not on reserve, but Trump denied the WHO's offer to GIVE first 250,000, then 500,000 test to the US - that the rest of the world had in January... instead, Trump decides the CDC should make their own test (Late in the game, at that) and that test was faulty.

Not to mention Trump isn't following any of the CDC's own rules or responses in their 450 page rulebook.

All the screaming now about a potential lack of ventilators, well, you don't keep reserves that can meet demands that are grossly outside typical needs

The need for ventilators or the overwhelming of them could be prevented/slowed if the initial response was correct and we had testing to figure out where to best manage the threat. Due to the Gov'ts poor response.. there is a good chance that that poor response causes ventilator shortages - or shortages in healthcare, generally.

EDIT: Oh, and Trump got rid of the Global Pandemic Team at the CDC

 

[britechguy]

@phaZed,

Believe me, you'll get no argument from me on those points.

But, big world picture, every country in the world would bankrupt itself, and waste an immense amount of energy best spent otherwise, were they to actually try to be "prepared for anything," which is the point I was really trying to make. There's a limit, dictated by reason, as to how prepared anyone or any nation can be for "unknown unknowns," and novel pathogens of a greatly infectious nature are "unknown unknowns." The only thing you do know is that such can appear unexpectedly, but what they'll cause in terms of symptoms is a complete mystery.

I have said many times, even on this forum I believe, that it makes sense to try to prepare for the those things that are foreseeable and probable, but not for every remotely possible, but highly improbable, confluence of events. Rapidly spreading worldwide contagions, while foreseeable, do not fall in the probable category. The last one was over 100 years ago.

 

[phaZed]

@britechguy IMO, right on target, bud. Only thing I contend is that the gov't doesn't even have a "bug-out bag".

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of a horse, the rider was lost.
For want of a rider, the battle was lost.
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
- Benjamin Franklin


There are simple things that government could do to have a broad preparedness, of which we have done away with for political (and often selfish or corrupt) reasons. (am i preaching to the choir?)

 

[Galdorf]

What is going to happen is people will start to panic once you can`t buy the essentials might even lead to riots if it gets bad enough grocery chains need to start rationing so many per customer i can`t even find a loaf of bread around here good thing a loaf lasts me a week.

Don`t these people have morals profiting in time like this is just wrong.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappen...k-lysol-wipes-to-re-sell-for-profit-1.5496733


https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/kijiji-toilet-paper-surgical-masks-covid-19-coronavirus-1.5498327

 

[Porthos]

i can`t even find a loaf of bread

I think it is another kind of loaf the toilet paper hoarders are worried about.

 

[Galdorf]

This is the stuff that causes mass panic.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/business/walmart-store-hours/index.html

 

[phaZed]

Everything's fine, folks! Nothing to see here!

 

[sapphirescales]

Making "price gouging" illegal is a horrible idea unless they also enforce strict limits per customer (logged by ID so people can't just come back and buy more an hour later). If they don't set a limit then they should definitely increase prices to prevent hoarders from stocking up.

 

[sapphirescales]

Sapphire - are you OK, mate? You seem dangerously close to advocating state-controlled rationing and price controls in preference to a laissez-faire free-markets-will-fix-everything solution. I think you might need a lie down.

I hate the government. They always stick their d*ck in there without knowing what the hell they're doing and screw things up. For example, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they make price gouging illegal but didn't force limits for essential products. The end result will be the early ones with all the money will take everything and there will be nothing left. It's better to make the product expensive and have some left than make it cheap when nobody can get it. They absolutely need to enforce quantity limits if they make price gouging illegal.

It's the same sh*t with the medical system. They made everyone have to purchase it, but insurance companies can still pick and choose who and what they want to cover. If they want to force everyone to buy it, then they need to force the insurance companies to allow pre-existing conditions (thank God they did this at least), AND make it so that insurance companies can't jerk you around by refusing to cover the medications you need and restricting you to a small network of sh*tty doctors that are willing to accept the small payments from these insurance companies.

There's no reason why anyone should have to call around and double check if doctors and medications are covered under their insurance. Insurance needs to cover EVERYTHING that someone needs in order to get well, regardless of what it is or what it costs.

 

[sapphirescales]

So perhaps some kind of Universal Healthcare (or "National Health Service") with treatment made available to everyone on the basis of need alone might be in order, then?

I hate socialism, but if the f*cking government is going to steal our money and use us as mules, they should be responsible for the health of the people.

 

[Sky-Knight]

The US House just passed a "relief bill" that authorized $400,000,000 to go to state school lunch programs and EBT programs to feed the kids that aren't in schools that are closed for at least 5 consecutive days.

All well and good right?

Then in the next sentence, it authorizes the Secretary to blow $100,000,000 of it to "distribute" the funds in question...

Now, how many of us here would survive blowing ONE QUARTER of any amount of money, just to transfer it to another account?

Sapphirescales is correct, use of government for certain matters is just stupid, general health and welfare? HA, not possible.

 

[britechguy]

The US House just passed a "relief bill" that authorized $400,000,000 to go to state school lunch programs and EBT programs to feed the kids that aren't in schools that are closed for at least 5 consecutive days.

All well and good right?

Then in the next sentence, it authorizes the Secretary to blow $100,000,000 of it to "distribute" the funds in question...

Now, how many of us here would survive blowing ONE QUARTER of any amount of money, just to transfer it to another account?

Sapphirescales is correct, use of government for certain matters is just stupid, general health and welfare? HA, not possible.

Uh, it's not about distributing the funds. This is not a bank transfer.

How do you think that food gets out into the community, to those shut in? It's not magic, and it's not an insignificant effort (cost or effort wise) to suddenly put in a distribution network for something like this. It's for distribution of the authorized aid, a great deal of which will not be monetary when it comes to what's provided to the end recipient.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Uh, it's not about distributing the funds. This is not a bank transfer.

How do you think that food gets out into the community, to those shut in? It's not magic, and it's not an insignificant effort (cost or effort wise) to suddenly put in a distribution network for something like this. It's for distribution of the authorized aid, a great deal of which will not be monetary when it comes to what's provided to the end recipient.

I understand what you're saying, but read the bill. All the FEDERAL government is doing is handing cash to the States to distribute, there is no Federal distribution beyond a monetary transfer. The money itself is used by the States and Cities, THEY are doing the distribution. And yet they aren't really authorized to do so. In our system, this constitutes corruption.

 

[britechguy]

If you can provide me a link to the bill text, I'll be happy to. I cannot find the full text on Congress.gov, which is usually the first place that has the full text for the public. And given that the bill (sans text) is over 100 pages long (no surprise) I suspect, but cannot definitively state, that the characterization you've presented is oversimplified.

I also full well expect that there will be some flexibility when it comes to service delivery in emergency situations. I'm not saying you're doing the complaining, but government, under usual circumstances, is generally very slow because care has to be taken to review and review and review before something gets done. It's to ensure both thoroughness and evenhandedness. There have to be exceptions to "the normal way of doing things" in true emergency situations. In other words, worrying about the finer points of who's doing actual end point distribution right now is not something I care to do. The New York Times has it nailed,
‘Totally Ad Hoc’: Why America’s Virus Response Looks Like a Patchwork
that would be because it is, of necessity. "Do something!!," is being screamed from all quarters, and justifiably so.

 

[Sky-Knight]

It's not through the Senate, it's only the House. H.R. 6201

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6201?q={"search":["H.R.6201"]}&s=1&r=1

 

[britechguy]

And the text of the bill supports my previously stated premise, and precisely:

"$400,000,000, to remain available through September 30, 2021: Provided, That of the funds made available, the Secretary may use up to $100,000,000 for costs associated with the distribution of commodities . . ."

Getting large amounts of direct aid like food, medicine, etc. (that is, commodities) distributed across the nation and into remote areas, if necessary, is not an inexpensive proposition.

Also note well, "up to." That doesn't mean that this amount will end up being necessary depending on where the said commodities need to be distributed.

 

[britechguy]

This is the stuff that causes mass panic.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/14/business/walmart-store-hours/index.html

If restricting store hours from 6 AM - 11 PM, rather than 24 hours, and closing stores in hotspots "causes panic" rather than being seen as a reasonable response to exceptional circumstances, then heaven help us.

Of course, when it comes to irrational panic, that's about the only thing that can, other than time for the panic to subside.

Around here, things are generally pretty good. I couldn't find 2% milk (unless it was organic or lactose free) but most stores have TP (and are limiting the number an individual can purchase), milk, bread (including commercial and in-store baked), and almost everything else. There are several I was in this afternoon when looking for 2% milk, including Wal-Mart, that have definitely been run down on their typical stock, but I think it was only the local Food Lion that had been almost completely stripped of TP.

I am glad to see stores putting self-imposed quantity limits on stuff that the insane panickers seem to believe they need a months-long to lifetime supply of. The local Food Lion also put a limit of 2 on hand sanitizer purchases. Someone's got to do it, and I'm glad to see that multiple someones in our local retailing community have.

 

[Galdorf]

If restricting store hours from 6 AM - 11 PM, rather than 24 hours, and closing stores in hotspots "causes panic" rather than being seen as a reasonable response to exceptional circumstances, then heaven help us.

Of course, when it comes to irrational panic, that's about the only thing that can, other than time for the panic to subside.

Around here, things are generally pretty good. I couldn't find 2% milk (unless it was organic or lactose free) but most stores have TP (and are limiting the number an individual can purchase), milk, bread (including commercial and in-store baked), and almost everything else. There are several I was in this afternoon when looking for 2% milk, including Wal-Mart, that have definitely been run down on their typical stock, but I think it was only the local Food Lion that had been almost completely stripped of TP.

I am glad to see stores putting self-imposed quantity limits on stuff that the insane panickers seem to believe they need a months-long to lifetime supply of. The local Food Lion also put a limit of 2 on hand sanitizer purchases. Someone's got to do it, and I'm glad to see that multiple someones in our local retailing community have.

exactly stores around here have bare shelves and they are closing them to the public till they can restock now everything is out here i have a month of supplies left i don`t go crazy and buy 20 packs of toilet paper but what is my government going to do if this drags out for months.

 

[britechguy]

. . . what is my government going to do if this drags out for months.

Who knows? And it won't. There's already clear evidence that this is a very fast moving phenomenon and that those who contract the illness either recover fairly promptly or die. And that's not to be crass, heartless, or unfeeling - it's just observing what has happened and continues to happen as the hotspots shift.

Trying to flatten the curve of infection will extend the length of the event, but those who are already sick and will have recovered will be returning to normal routines in droves. The worst of this will likely be during the next 2 to 4 weeks or at least that's my guesstimate. Of course, that's only if voluntary measures for suppressing the rate of infection are followed. If not, and things start raging out of control and the health care system is overwhelmed, things will go south very quickly, and remain that way for a much longer period of time since the kind of panic we've seen so far "ain't nothin' yet" were the worst to occur.