The Linux comminity

[SAG]

Who'd of thought Kentucky as a Linux stronghold, right? Must be something in the water....probably years of runoff from IBM/Lexmark.

Oddly enough, that's where I used to work when I lived in Lexington.... well, Winchester.
Am heading back Thursday to drop my kids off at my mom's while wifey and I head to Key West for a week.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Just FYI, the Netflix thing is because of DRM and Netflix.. not because of Linux.. and it has been rectified:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2824623/ubuntu-linux-gets-netflix-without-weird-workarounds.html

I don't see Linux as the "hobbyist OS" - quite to the contrary, it is the Professional's OS. Much like you wouldn't expect a home user to setup a server, I don't expect to see Linux setup by a novice user. Ubuntu is an attempt to appeal to novice users.

I know were far from "bashing", but for lack of a better word, Android is Linux, Apple's iOS is Linux - or to be more correct they are all based on BSD Unix with modified code and kernels. So to say "Linux" isn't easy to use is debatable seeing as many people use Linux everyday without even knowing or questioning that fact.

Now the reason I say Linux is the Professional's OS is because pretty much all serious networking devices use Linux, Sun Microsystems - now Oracle is BSD/Linux based, etc etc.. I doubt you can go a day without being affected by Linux in some way. It's far from Hobbyist, albeit, hobbyists find a home with it because of its open source and wide feature set.

Linux is about choice, like the video says. If you haven't found the right distro for YOU, then you shouldn't blame the whole of Linux.. you should blame the distro attempt to find something else that works for you.

On another note, I have been off and on with Linux since the mid 90's... so I may be more knowledgeable of Linux than some, but not many. I have not had significant problems with finding answers and rarely do I have to post my own questions it's just a matter of Googling.

As far as "snobbish elitist" OS trolls... well, I'm pretty sure Windows and iOS/OS(x) users make up a larger portion of that seeing just the conversations on this board.

I am aware of all of that. I sell and use Linux servers all the time. I just don't pretend that Linux as a desktop offers anything that will make the masses or me for that matter jump to it. I still contend that it is a hobbyist OS. You are not going to change my thinking on that by claiming that it is a Professional OS just because you are offended by the hobbyist label. I don't even argue that Linux is hard to use. There is just no compelling reason for most people to make the leap. People are jumping to phones as their main computing devices for a reason. Ease of use and convenience. It offers something more then a desktop can offer. Linux doesn't do that. Even Mac for the most part doesn't do so enough to take the lead from Windows. Windows has it's problems but it is good enough for most people.

 

[seedubya]

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream.

I think "hobbyist" is the wrong word here, leading to a misunderstanding. I think specialist or niche or non-mainstream - anything you like really but not "hobbyist". I don't see those NASA sub-contractors doing this stuff as a hobby.

 

[phaZed]

nline, not trying to make your mind for you.. and I'm not offended by the hobbyist label, I conceded that fact.

I'm not trying to split hairs here... but when you say:

There is just no compelling reason for most people to make the leap. People are jumping to phones as their main computing devices for a reason. Ease of use and convenience. It offers something more then a desktop can offer. Linux doesn't do that.

...so what exactly do you think is on the phones that people are jumping to? So, what is Linux not doing? Chromium OS/Android IS through and through Linux. iOS is very similar to Linux being based on OSX which is based on BSD. It's important not to get hung up on brand name conventions and see that all this stuff is less-revolutionary than we may think. I'm not trying to have a "ha ha" moment here, but in one set of sentences you have said nobody is jumping to Linux when that is exactly what they are doing.

Also, the only reason Windows is so popular is because they essentially won the OS wars when Apple went out of business. The rest of the world kept going without Apple and still needed to compute things with some modicrum of future support and stability of the companies that they purchase their equipment from. Apple failed at this, and I would contend, still does. Therefor, software was written and businesses used Windows. Where else were they to go? Let's face it, Apple failed and Microsoft marketed themselves better at the time. Better marketing doesn't equate to better product, but I digress.

 

[seedubya]

you have said nobody is jumping to Linux when that is exactly what they are doing.

To be fair, I think he means desktop Linux OSs on laptops and PCs like Mint or Ubuntu which is a fair enough point. In 17-18 years in this business I've only seen a desktop Linux OS twice and they were "hobbyist" home users. I've seen a few (but only a few) servers in SMB and of course the specialist distros M0n0wall, Untangle etc. etc. Ask Joe Soap or Jane Doe what FOSS\FLOSS is and you'll hear something about dental care. As far as out-of-the-box usability goes Linux (e.g. Mint) isn't quite there yet and hasn't been quite there for 15 years.

 

[gunslinger]

To be fair, I think he means desktop Linux OSs on laptops and PCs like Mint or Ubuntu which is a fair enough point. In 17-18 years in this business I've only seen a desktop Linux OS twice and they were "hobbyist" home users. I've seen a few (but only a few) servers in SMB and of course the specialist distros M0n0wall, Untangle etc. etc. Ask Joe Soap or Jane Doe what FOSS\FLOSS is and you'll hear something about dental care. As far as out-of-the-box usability goes Linux (e.g. Mint) isn't quite there yet and hasn't been quite there for 15 years.

I've been in business for 11-12 years and have seen Ubuntu on one business machine. As for Mint, there are still a few things its lacking but its the closest one out there right now I think.

 

[phaZed]

lol seedubya,

I hear you and I understand (I think) well. I suppose the argument is that Linux is everywhere without anyone knowing. As far as Desktop OS's go.. how about the Chrome book and Chromium? I don't really like Chromebooks but that's not the point, plenty of people use it without issue or problems and it is Linux based. It all goes 'round and 'round to the point of.. if you haven't found a Linux Distro that meets your needs, more likely than not, you simply haven't found the right Distro for you. Perhaps even, it's not the particular Distro your having problems with but rather the Window Manager. If you like Mac there is a Distro that looks and works almost just like Mac:
http://tricklinux.blogspot.com/2014/06/seven-different-linux-distributions.html

If you want a "Windows" Linux check out:
http://zorin-os.com/
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/best-linux-distro-first-time-switchers-windows-mac/

I mean, there really isn't anything difficult about it and is made to be easy to use for "switchers" from Mac or Win. All of the "heavy-lifting" hard-core command line stuff is taken care of for the most part. It comes down to the software issue and what's compatible and available - as it seems to be the topic with OSX, or not, or whatever. LOL.

Is Linux ready for the main-stream? No, probably not, and perhaps it will never be. The nice thing about Linux though is that it never claimed to be and Linux isn't a singular thing or company, it's a blanket word for a particular technology. But the argument has been made that Linux is already "main-stream", just nobody recognizes that because it didn't plaster "Linux" on the splash screen - it says "OSX" or "Android" or "Chromium" or "Symbian" or "Blackberry", etc. We're techs, so we should be able to see that as such.

 

[nlinecomputers]

To be fair, I think he means desktop Linux OSs on laptops and PCs like Mint or Ubuntu which is a fair enough point. In 17-18 years in this business I've only seen a desktop Linux OS twice and they were "hobbyist" home users. I've seen a few (but only a few) servers in SMB and of course the specialist distros M0n0wall, Untangle etc. etc. Ask Joe Soap or Jane Doe what FOSS\FLOSS is and you'll hear something about dental care. As far as out-of-the-box usability goes Linux (e.g. Mint) isn't quite there yet and hasn't been quite there for 15 years.

Yes I am speaking of the desktop. It is what the OP was referring to was it not? Sure I've got Linux all around me, my Roku, My routers, my NAS units, and two clients with servers. All of this is irrelevant to the topic of Linux desktops.

Chromebooks? Who uses them? I've seen two chromebooks in client hands so far and both hate them but one of our private schools got them cheap and all the young students got one. They have to use them. And it is as locked down as other "mainstream" linux devices, like Rokus, or routers, or even phones.

 

[phaZed]

Our whole school district of Chesterfield (Population 327,745) and Henrico (Population 318,611) is handing out Chromebooks

The elementary school order will be for 6,500 laptops for students in grades three, four and five, plus 2,200 units for faculty members. They [Chromebooks] will replace Apple MacBooks that were put into use in 2007 and 2008.

http://www.richmond.com/news/local/henrico/article_f246c971-9683-51e0-8271-4b6e03a5f5b2.html
In that article they do say that Chromebooks don't meet their needs.. but in 2015, that's what they have:
http://blogs.scholastic.com/educati...nrico-county-public-schools.html#.VRsvw_nF82g

and Chesterfield:
http://www.richmond.com/news/local/chesterfield/article_2bb017e8-85c9-5101-89be-b902d72e123d.html

Pretty much my entire area's schools are adopting Chromebooks. I don't like it, but hey, big win for Linux/Chromium.

nline - I kinda already put it out there a few times now.. what do you say about Apple OSX seeing as it is essentially Linux too?? Or are we counting those out?

 

[nlinecomputers]

nline - I kinda already put it out there a few times now.. what do you say about Apple OSX seeing as it is essentially Linux too?? Or are we counting those out?

First it is BSD not Linux, nor is it, as a whole, open source. It is a closed source commercial product just like Windows is. (WIndows too has some FOSS software in it's code, mostly in the TCP/IP stack.) It is also sold with it's hardware so it is much like a router or streaming box in that regard. In any case it certainly isn't a hobbyist OS. It has a considerable market share compared to any Distro of Linux, or all distros as a whole. And it has certain professions such as graphic artists that have used it for years. I get asked to support Macs all the time. Can't say that I have any clients that know what Linux is. (Even my two clients running them as servers are pretty ignorant as to the name of the OS)

 

[pcpete]

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream. People who simply want to have their computers just work are invited into the community because they are told it is better. It isn't. Not even close. Windows often doesn't work which is what leads them to look at alternatives. Linux with a lot of effort can be built into something useful, if you enjoy doing that. Most people don't like to really get their hands dirty to have a working OS. Part of the reason for the attitude is that most Linux fans, love researching and diving in the guts of the OS. Most average Joe computer users DON'T.

I agree completely. I used Linux exclusively for several years. It was because I loved to tinker and learn about operating systems. It was my hobby, pure and simple. I love learning and understanding how it worked. I did not use it because it was better than Windows, I just enjoyed the community and playing with it. After I started my repair business I drifted away and just mainly used Windows. I did not want to spend my limited time tinkering with Linux after working all day with Windows. It no longer fit in my life. It still holds a place in my heart.

 

[phaZed]

nlinecomputers,

Yes, but BSD and Linux are essentially kernel forks from UNIX. The only difference from BSD and Linux is that BSD has the Kernel and OS developed by the same guys. Linux has the Kernel and OS stuff developed by *whoever* decides to contribute. Now, if we go deep here.. neither BSD or Linux have code from UNIX - but they both adhere to being POSIX compliant.. which is what it really comes down to. So, for all intents and purposes they are very much the same from an operational standpoint:

The POSIX specifications for Unix-like operating systems originally consisted of a single document for the core programming interface, but eventually grew to 19 separate documents (POSIX.1, POSIX.2, etc.).[5] The standardized user command line and scripting interface were based on the Korn shell[citation needed]. Many user-level programs, services, and utilities including awk, echo, ed were also standardized, along with required program-level services including basic I/O (file, terminal, and network) services. POSIX also defines a standard threading library API which is supported by most modern operating systems. Nowadays, most of POSIX parts are combined into a single standard, IEEE Std 1003.1-2008, also known as POSIX.1-2008.

Apple built their interface on BSD. So, would it be more correct to say UNIX has been widely adopted? I guess my point is that Apple has taken a user-unfriendly BSD and put their UI on top... as Chromium has done with Linux. Apple's "Distro" is OSX and Google's "Distro" is Chromium - but that still doesn't change the fact that the underlying Kernels are still BSD or Linux, interchangeable and largely compatible with each other, and both UNIX based and POSIX compliant. The similarities between the two, under and over the hood, are uncanny.

So, yes, I know BSD and Linux are not the same technically... but Nobody disputes that BSD is UNIX based and Linux is UNIX based.. yet they have no code from UNIX.. so the terms are loosely interchanged, regardless... I am also loosely stating that Linux and BSD are the same, albeit, technically not - for the sake of discussion.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Lol.

 

[nlinecomputers]

@phaZed And your point? Because you have totally missed mine. Who cares about anything you just said? Not the average end user. They just want it to work. If it doesn't work they will not adopt it. If it isn't a good value they will not adopt it. Which is why Windows outsells Mac because while Mac is fantastic OS there isn't anything so different, no advantage so great, as to drop Windows for it. It is good enough for most users, warts and all. Other than being free and being less of a malware target what does Linux offer the end user? (And please don't preach to me about it. I KNOW the proclaimed benefits. I just disagree with them.) And so do most end users or Linux would have taken off and blown Windows away.

 

[gunslinger]

Other than being free and being less of a malware target what does Linux offer the end user?

Completely customizable. Not that it matters to the average consumer you are talking about.

 

[phaZed]

nline,
My only point is that Linux is in use every day by average regular people. You see Linux as not being successful, but I see Linux as already there, in the hands of people and on the shelves of stores. Nobody identifies it a "Linux", but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I'm not looking for a heated debate here.

I guess I did miss your point.

 

[nlinecomputers]

I see the Linux DESKTOP as not being successful. That is ALL I have been referring to here. It is what the OP and the YouTube video refereed to.

With all due respect. You got insulted by my hobbyist remark and as a defense tried to show me all the various favors of Linux to justify your position. And put words in my mouth in the process. I'm not insulted. Just amused. It's an argument I've seen countless times before.

But I stand by my statement. By and large the people who will slap Linux onto a desktop are Computer hobbyists. People who are likely to own more than one PC, running more then one copy of Windows, maybe even VMs, and are likely to build there own rigs, run gaming systems, etc. They use computers for their hobbies and work on them as a hobby.

And to bring this back to the original post. Such power users, are more in tune with their PCs then most other users. People who are NOT our clients because they don't need us. People who often ARE us. So being technically inclined we expect others who take up Linux to be of a similar skill set. And so they don't have the tolerance they should have towards other users who may or may not have those skills or that hobby.

 

[phaZed]

Not interested, dude. Chill out.

 

[coffee]

.

The last area of MS is the desktop. They have lost much of the server market. They screwed up on the phone market too. Now they screw up on the Desktop market.

They better pray that Win10 is a winner or they are in some serious trouble. I have no problem showing my residential clients Linux Mint and how it replaces win8 quite easily. In fact, I have never had a customer come to me and say "I want my windows back". People are getting frustrated with windows. They are looking for alternatives. Who knows? I still expect the Year of the Linux Desktop.

 

[stro]

Oh, On a side note here, Gnome is pronounced "nome" the G is silent. To me that makes these guys in the video sound rather stupid. But what would I know after 16 years of linux right?

Unless some one changed officially changed it, it is actually pronounced Guh-nome. It was originally a GNU (Guh-new) project and was pronounced the same way. I have used it as my desktop since 99 as well, when "October GNOME" was released. I used to run the GNOME news site.

 

[gunslinger]