The Linux comminity

[gunslinger]

These guys said it better than I ever could. AGREED 100%

 

[Slaters Kustum Machines]

Agreed. I like to dabble in Linux, but at a beginner level. I have used different flavors, but typically fall back to Ubuntu because I like it, but getting help with it kinda sucks. I tend to always fall back to Windows though since my FTJ is a Windows environment it just makes sense. If I could get AD tools and SCCM to work on Linux well without VM's I would do it.

 

[gunslinger]

Agreed. I like to dabble in Linux, but at a beginner level. I have used different flavors, but typically fall back to Ubuntu because I like it, but getting help with it kinda sucks. I tend to always fall back to Windows though since my FTJ is a Windows environment it just makes sense. If I could get AD tools and SCCM to work on Linux well without VM's I would do it.

I also dabble. Right now I'm running one dedicated Linux Mint box in my office. I also play with several different distros inside VMs. I normally come back to Mint for the same reasons you come back to ubuntu.

 

[coffee]

I am here to take on the defence of linux community. My credentials? I have been exclusively using linux since 1999. I have been active in the linux community and forums - helping others for many years. I have watched linux grow from being a small hobby operating system to what it is today. Am I some elitist snob? No. I have always donated my time to helping others with overcoming problems when running linux operating systems and spreading the word about how good it is.

This video paints a rather poor picture of the linux community at large. This is not the case at all. Of course there are those that feel they are above everyone else. You will have that in any community. But there are a lot of us out there helping others on the path of software freedom and have never belittled those that need help. IMHO, This video is from those that want to put linux down because they are talking about a very small percentage of people in the linux community. Why make a video about a subject like this when the vast majority of people involved in linux are very helpful to others? Probably because they have an agenda. What there agenda is I have no idea. You see, I do not care. I know what linux is capable of and I know the linux community pretty good.

Over the last few years there have been some very strong emotions pertaining to gnome and ubuntu. This has been a real sore spot with those in the community and its probably some backwash from that, That prompts people to make such blanket statements. Let me explain here.

ubuntu is from canonical. canonical is the "windows" of the linux world. They spy on you and record all kinds of information about you. It was not always that way. Basically, canonical **** all over the linux community with this stuff. A lot of us are still pretty upset about the things they do. Then gnome3 and unity arrived. We all knew it was trash. What upset a lot of us there was the way it was presented to us. It was forced on us. It was put as the default desktop on many flavors because gnome devs quit supporting gnome2 and canonical pushed unity. Therefore, New users of linux were automatically steered towards these two desktops and with anything not tested well there were (are) a lot of problems. So, Thanks to gnome and canonical the linux community was divided and you can imagine the backlash one can walk into when asking for help with those two desktops. Not a lot of users want to help those running these desktop environments. I would say its 50/50 really. So, Walking into a situation like this and asking for help I can see some bashing going on. When you understand this you begin to realize what is really going on.

New users to linux get upset because they are asked to do some "Due diligence" on their own part. They come from the windows world or the Apple tree. They want everything done for them. In linux land you are asked to try and research your problem a bit and look around. For a lot of new users this seems to be an alien concept to them. If you want to get flamed in the linux community just assume that everyone knows what hardware you are running along with any error codes you are getting and expect an answer. its not going to happen and never has. Those that are too lazy to just type in an error message to google and look around are frowned upon.

I do not give much credence to the people in this video. They are just bashing something because they need things spoon fed to them when they have an issue or they do not understand that linux is community driven and if they expect enterprise level support they can pay for that.

Oh, On a side note here, Gnome is pronounced "nome" the G is silent. To me that makes these guys in the video sound rather stupid. But what would I know after 16 years of linux right?

 

[gunslinger]

I am here to take on the defence of linux community. My credentials? I have been exclusively using linux since 1999. I have been active in the linux community and forums - helping others for many years. I have watched linux grow from being a small hobby operating system to what it is today. Am I some elitist snob? No. I have always donated my time to helping others with overcoming problems when running linux operating systems and spreading the word about how good it is.

This video paints a rather poor picture of the linux community at large. This is not the case at all. Of course there are those that feel they are above everyone else. You will have that in any community. But there are a lot of us out there helping others on the path of software freedom and have never belittled those that need help. IMHO, This video is from those that want to put linux down because they are talking about a very small percentage of people in the linux community. Why make a video about a subject like this when the vast majority of people involved in linux are very helpful to others? Probably because they have an agenda. What there agenda is I have no idea. You see, I do not care. I know what linux is capable of and I know the linux community pretty good.

Over the last few years there have been some very strong emotions pertaining to gnome and ubuntu. This has been a real sore spot with those in the community and its probably some backwash from that, That prompts people to make such blanket statements. Let me explain here.

ubuntu is from canonical. canonical is the "windows" of the linux world. They spy on you and record all kinds of information about you. It was not always that way. Basically, canonical **** all over the linux community with this stuff. A lot of us are still pretty upset about the things they do. Then gnome3 and unity arrived. We all knew it was trash. What upset a lot of us there was the way it was presented to us. It was forced on us. It was put as the default desktop on many flavors because gnome devs quit supporting gnome2 and canonical pushed unity. Therefore, New users of linux were automatically steered towards these two desktops and with anything not tested well there were (are) a lot of problems. So, Thanks to gnome and canonical the linux community was divided and you can imagine the backlash one can walk into when asking for help with those two desktops. Not a lot of users want to help those running these desktop environments. I would say its 50/50 really. So, Walking into a situation like this and asking for help I can see some bashing going on. When you understand this you begin to realize what is really going on.

New users to linux get upset because they are asked to do some "Due diligence" on their own part. They come from the windows world or the Apple tree. They want everything done for them. In linux land you are asked to try and research your problem a bit and look around. For a lot of new users this seems to be an alien concept to them. If you want to get flamed in the linux community just assume that everyone knows what hardware you are running along with any error codes you are getting and expect an answer. its not going to happen and never has. Those that are too lazy to just type in an error message to google and look around are frowned upon.

I do not give much credence to the people in this video. They are just bashing something because they need things spoon fed to them when they have an issue or they do not understand that linux is community driven and if they expect enterprise level support they can pay for that.

Oh, On a side note here, Gnome is pronounced "nome" the G is silent. To me that makes these guys in the video sound rather stupid. But what would I know after 16 years of linux right?

I have been playing around with Linux since about 2005. In those 10 years Id have to say about 80% of my experiences with the Linux community has been extremely negative. Coffee, you are one of the very few Linux guys who has genuinely been helpful. One thing you said does bother me though. "They are just bashing something because they need things spoon fed to them when they have an issue" The general attitude I have seen in the Linux community has been one of looking down on the new guy because he really does need things spoon fed to him. I think for a little while these people who are brand new to linux need to be led by the hand. I think if the Linux guys really wanted Linux to grow the way they say they do they would clearly see this. What new people are told about Linux and what they actually experience when using it are two very different things. The Windows and Apple ppl are told "oh, come over to linux. Things just work like Apple but its all free and you can put it on anything and it will just be rainbows and unicorns." Then they install the distro of the day on their 5 year old Dell and their ethernet does not work, neither does their sound. So, they run back to the linux community expecting help and they are greeted with the "we ain't gonna spoon feed you noob"

Do you see how this is a problem for the growth of Linux as a whole? Oh, as far as the G being silent. That bothered the hell out of me. About as bad as people calling it O S "X" instead of OS 10. Its a fuc kin roman numeral people!

 

[ajgyomber]

ubuntu is from canonical. canonical is the "windows" of the linux world. They spy on you and record all kinds of information about you. It was not always that way. Basically, canonical **** all over the linux community with this stuff. A lot of us are still pretty upset about the things they do. Then gnome3 and unity arrived. We all knew it was trash. What upset a lot of us there was the way it was presented to us. It was forced on us. It was put as the default desktop on many flavors because gnome devs quit supporting gnome2 and canonical pushed unity. Therefore, New users of linux were automatically steered towards these two desktops and with anything not tested well there were (are) a lot of problems. So, Thanks to gnome and canonical the linux community was divided and you can imagine the backlash one can walk into when asking for help with those two desktops. Not a lot of users want to help those running these desktop environments. I would say its 50/50 really. So, Walking into a situation like this and asking for help I can see some bashing going on. When you understand this you begin to realize what is really going on.

I do not give much credence to the people in this video. They are just bashing something because they need things spoon fed to them when they have an issue or they do not understand that linux is community driven and if they expect enterprise level support they can pay for that.

Oh, On a side note here, Gnome is pronounced "nome" the G is silent. To me that makes these guys in the video sound rather stupid. But what would I know after 16 years of linux right?

I'm fairly technical and have been working in the industry for quite some time. I have very little Linux experience and would love to learn it more but I have to agree with them. It is not a welcoming community and your comments above reinforce that fact. You started out well in your post but then appear to justify the community's un-inviting behavior. You then go on to say that you discredit the entire video just because they mispronounce "G-nome". I think the "community" as a whole should not automatically assume a new user hasn't done their due-diligence before asking for help. I also think the acceptance of "bashing" is quite simply the problem.

--AJ

 

[SilverLeaf]

New users to linux get upset because they are asked to do some "Due diligence" on their own part. They come from the windows world or the Apple tree. They want everything done for them. In linux land you are asked to try and research your problem a bit and look around. For a lot of new users this seems to be an alien concept to them.

I agree. Like most things, you get out of it what you put into it. From my point of view, Linux is more about the support of FOSS principles, choice, and control. Linux gives you the ability to take complete ownership of your computer. This power comes with a price. While Linux is "free", an investment is required. I think the Community needs to do a better job of managing expectations and explain this up front.

 

[gunslinger]

I agree. Like most things, you get out of it what you put into it. From my point of view, Linux is more about the support of FOSS principles, choice, and control. Linux gives you the ability to take complete ownership of your computer. This power comes with a price. While Linux is "free", an investment is required. I think the Community needs to do a better job of managing expectations and explain this up front.

This is probably the best and most true statement I've heard about the subject.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream. People who simply want to have their computers just work are invited into the community because they are told it is better. It isn't. Not even close. Windows often doesn't work which is what leads them to look at alternatives. Linux with a lot of effort can be built into something useful, if you enjoy doing that. Most people don't like to really get their hands dirty to have a working OS. Part of the reason for the attitude is that most Linux fans, love researching and diving in the guts of the OS. Most average Joe computer users DON'T. Most also could care less about most of the issues that devoted Linux users care about. They don't care about FOSS other than it's nice to have something free. The ethics behind FOSS is immaterial to most users.

The problem with Linux isn't the users of it by themselves. It is the fact that they keep inviting people to a party that no one wants to go to.

 

[coffee]

I have used different flavors, but typically fall back to Ubuntu because I like it, but getting help with it kinda sucks. I tend to always fall back to Windows though since my FTJ is a Windows environment it just makes sense. If I could get AD tools and SCCM to work on Linux well without VM's I would do it.

I have been playing around with Linux since about 2005. In those 10 years Id have to say about 80% of my experiences with the Linux community has been extremely negative. Coffee, you are one of the very few Linux guys who has genuinely been helpful. One thing you said does bother me though. "They are just bashing something because they need things spoon fed to them when they have an issue" The general attitude I have seen in the Linux community has been one of looking down on the new guy because he really does need things spoon fed to him. I think for a little while these people who are brand new to linux need to be led by the hand. I think if the Linux guys really wanted Linux to grow the way they say they do they would clearly see this. What new people are told about Linux and what they actually experience when using it are two very different things. The Windows and Apple ppl are told "oh, come over to linux. Things just work like Apple but its all free and you can put it on anything and it will just be rainbows and unicorns." Then they install the distro of the day on their 5 year old Dell and their ethernet does not work, neither does their sound. So, they run back to the linux community expecting help and they are greeted with the "we ain't gonna spoon feed you noob"

Do you see how this is a problem for the growth of Linux as a whole? Oh, as far as the G being silent. That bothered the hell out of me. About as bad as people calling it O S "X" instead of OS 10. Its a fuc kin roman numeral people!

I have a lot of respect for you as I think we share a lot of values and interests. I think this thread will quickly move into a bashing thread but I will continue

I think your experience with help in the forums might be because of ubuntu. A little hint about ubuntu here --> The devs do not care one bit about you and your experiences/problems. I would share your opinion there with ubuntu. However, As I have told people in the past (and still do), Steer clear of that operating system because of the lack of appreciation for users and the prevailing attitudes there. Go to any of the others and you will be well received. I spoke very openly on the forums about some issues with the politics of ubuntu and I was attacked heavily by the fanboys of ubuntu. I no longer support or have an account with them.

As for asking for help I do not think I have ever ran across one of your posts in Linux Mint or Fedora (I cruze the mint forums now. Not so much fedora anymore) but if you have an issue I will most definitely help you out. There are a lot of users on the Mint forum that will too.

 

[coffee]

I'm fairly technical and have been working in the industry for quite some time. I have very little Linux experience and would love to learn it more but I have to agree with them. It is not a welcoming community and your comments above reinforce that fact. You started out well in your post but then appear to justify the community's un-inviting behavior. You then go on to say that you discredit the entire video just because they mispronounce "G-nome". I think the "community" as a whole should not automatically assume a new user hasn't done their due-diligence before asking for help. I also think the acceptance of "bashing" is quite simply the problem.

--AJ

I do not bash. However, I will stick up for something I really love. My G-nome comment was preferenced with "As a side note". Take it for what its ment.

I do not see how my comments can be construed as "unwelcoming". Please see my reply to Gunfighter.

 

[coffee]

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream. People who simply want to have their computers just work are invited into the community because they are told it is better. It isn't. Not even close. Windows often doesn't work which is what leads them to look at alternatives. Linux with a lot of effort can be built into something useful, if you enjoy doing that. Most people don't like to really get their hands dirty to have a working OS. Part of the reason for the attitude is that most Linux fans, love researching and diving in the guts of the OS. Most average Joe computer users DON'T. Most also could care less about most of the issues that devoted Linux users care about. They don't care about FOSS other than it's nice to have something free. The ethics behind FOSS is immaterial to most users.

The problem with Linux isn't the users of it by themselves. It is the fact that they keep inviting people to a party that no one wants to go to.

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream.

I do not know what you consider "mainstream"? Also, Linux is not a 'hobbyist's O/S'.

http://www.tecmint.com/big-companies-and-devices-running-on-gnulinux/

http://www.comparebusinessproducts.com/fyi/50-places-linux-running-you-might-not-expect

Linux with a lot of effort can be built into something useful

Like perhaps the servers that run this forum?

 

[nlinecomputers]

I'm not talking servers. I don't use Windows Server 2012 on my laptop to watch Netflix. I do use Windows 7 for that. I can use a Mac for that. Hell I can use my phone for that. Can I use Linux for that. Not without a lot of effort, if at all and usually not with the same user experience that I can get on a Windows 7 or 8 running on the same hardware.

The fact that you have to defend it validates my point. No one would call Windows a hobbyist OS. No one would call OS X that. Yet lots of people DO make that claim with Linux and with 50 major distros, each with many many forks who in turn have many many forks my point is made. Just how many home grown variants of Windows are there? Where is the version of Windows that has the features of Gentoo.

I've been in the computer repair business for 20 years. I've NEVER, encountered a Linux desktop system in an office. Nor have I ever sold one nor would I do so. Do I know people that use it. Sure but they built it themselves. Much like people work on custom cars. But the people that own custom cars, like the people that own custom OSs are 1 in 100, probably a higher ratio then that to be honest.

Sorry to insult you but it is a hobbyist OS. Always has, always will be. If it stops being so it will be because ONE distro will have made the leap to commercialization, rather like OS X did by being built on a free OS, or like Ubuntu is trying to do. And either way the Linux fanbois will disassociate themselves from it because they will have compromised some FOSS ideology that only fanboy Linux users really care about.

And I am not knocking you for any of that. If you have your principals and you stand by them I applaud you for that. More people should do so. But don't ever expect to be anything but on the fringe. Most people are sheep. Standing out from the crowd takes more then most people are willing to give. Which is why most people buy standard cars, never root or jailbreak there phones, and use Windows.

 

[coffee]

"We migrated key functions from Windows to Linux because we needed an operating system that was stable and reliable - one that would give us in-house control. So if we needed to patch, adjust or adapt, we could," Keith Chuvala of United Space Alliance, a NASA contractor said at the time of the changeover.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Linux's problem is that it is a hobbyist's operating system that wants to be mainstream.

You really are enforcing my point. I don't have to go further you are doing it for me.

 

[SAG]

I learned back in the 90's that debating Linux/Windows etc was about a pointless as a pecker on the pope.
It's nice to see that almost 20 years later, not much has changed.

I agree. Like most things, you get out of it what you put into it. From my point of view, Linux is more about the support of FOSS principles, choice, and control. Linux gives you the ability to take complete ownership of your computer. This power comes with a price. While Linux is "free", an investment is required. I think the Community needs to do a better job of managing expectations and explain this up front.

Leave it to a Kentucky boy be make a sensible post in a linux/winders thread.
What's wrong with you? How are you supposed to propagate the flame warring with your level headed comments?!?!?!

// I'm a Kentucky boy too

 

[coffee]

@ninelives - > I have no reply to your ramblings. Sorry.

The topic here is 'Getting abused by linux forums for asking for help'.

I dont and never will bash others for asking. I recommend Linux Mint with the Mate desktop. I do not recommend ubuntu.

 

[phaZed]

Just FYI, the Netflix thing is because of DRM and Netflix.. not because of Linux.. and it has been rectified:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2824623/ubuntu-linux-gets-netflix-without-weird-workarounds.html

I don't see Linux as the "hobbyist OS" - quite to the contrary, it is the Professional's OS. Much like you wouldn't expect a home user to setup a server, I don't expect to see Linux setup by a novice user. Ubuntu is an attempt to appeal to novice users.

I know we're far from "bashing", but for lack of a better word, Android is Linux, Apple's iOS is Linux - or to be more correct they are all based on BSD Unix with modified code and kernels. So to say "Linux" isn't easy to use is debatable seeing as many people use Linux everyday without even knowing or questioning that fact.

Now the reason I say Linux is the Professional's OS is because pretty much all serious networking devices use Linux, Sun Microsystems - now Oracle is BSD/Linux based, etc etc.. I doubt you can go a day without being affected by Linux in some way. It's far from Hobbyist, albeit, hobbyists find a home with it because of its open source and wide feature set.

Linux is about choice, like the video says. If you haven't found the right distro for YOU, then you shouldn't blame the whole of Linux.. you should blame the distro attempt to find something else that works for you.

On another note, I have been off and on with Linux since the mid 90's... so I may be more knowledgeable of Linux than some, but not many. I have not had significant problems with finding answers and rarely do I have to post my own questions it's just a matter of Googling.

As far as "snobbish elitist" OS trolls... well, I'm pretty sure Windows and iOS/OS(x) users make up a larger portion of that seeing just the conversations on this board.

 

[coffee]

Just FYI, the Netflix thing is because of DRM and Netflix.. not because of Linux.. and it has been rectified:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2824623/ubuntu-linux-gets-netflix-without-weird-workarounds.html

I don't see Linux as the "hobbyist OS" - quite to the contrary, it is the Professional's OS. Much like you wouldn't expect a home user to setup a server, I don't expect to see Linux setup by a novice user. Ubuntu is an attempt to appeal to novice users.

I know were far from "bashing", but for lack of a better word, Android is Linux, Apple's iOS is Linux - or to be more correct they are all based on BSD Unix with modified code and kernels. So to say "Linux" isn't easy to use is debatable seeing as many people use Linux everyday without even knowing or questioning that fact.

Now the reason I say Linux is the Professional's OS is because pretty much all serious networking devices use Linux, Sun Microsystems - now Oracle is BSD/Linux based, etc etc.. I doubt you can go a day without being affected by Linux in some way. It's far from Hobbyist, albeit, hobbyists find a home with it because of its open source and wide feature set.

Linux is about choice, like the video says. If you haven't found the right distro for YOU, then you shouldn't blame the whole of Linux.. you should blame the distro attempt to find something else that works for you.

On another note, I have been off and on with Linux since the mid 90's... so I may be more knowledgeable of Linux than some, but not many. I have not had significant problems with finding answers and rarely do I have to post my own questions it's just a matter of Googling.

As far as "snobbish elitist" OS trolls... well, I'm pretty sure Windows and iOS/OS(x) users make up a larger portion of that seeing just the conversations on this board.

+5
Very well said. I could not do any better.

 

[SilverLeaf]

pointless as a pecker on the pope.

Nice alliteration.

Leave it to a Kentucky boy be make a sensible post in a linux/winders thread.
What's wrong with you? How are you supposed to propagate the flame warring with your level headed comments?!?!?!
// I'm a Kentucky boy too

I mothballed my asbestos suit a long time ago, but I imagine it still fits should I ever need it again. Who'd of thought Kentucky as a Linux stronghold, right? Must be something in the water....probably years of runoff from IBM/Lexmark.