Hoarders Make Me Sick

[YeOldeStonecat]

Sadly there does come a point where "enough is enough" as far as a global/economic shutdown.

The "isolation" was mostly to slow the wicked fast spread from overwhelming hospitals. Not to halt the flu. The flu will keep going, slowly spreading, occasional peaks/spikes....hopefully now those spikes will not be enough to overwhelm hospitals.

It's relatively easy to toss glossy numbers around like "we saved lives via isolation"..."we flattened the curve".
Now...the immeasurable long term effects...suicides from businesses and careers lost, from retirement funds lost, from lost homes, repossessed cars, huge deep debt from credit, and the amount of people put out on the street because of no jobs, lost income, couldn't pay rent or mortgage, providers for families unable to provide...their spouses and children starving.

Many elders, if faced with the choice, would choose to allow their offspring to continue with successful lives and work and all that stuff we're losing now, by allowing themselves to be sacrificed. I don't know what parent would not do that!

 

[pcpete]

Sadly there does come a point where "enough is enough" as far as a global/economic shutdown.

The "isolation" was mostly to slow the wicked fast spread from overwhelming hospitals. Not to halt the flu. The flu will keep going, slowly spreading, occasional peaks/spikes....hopefully now those spikes will not be enough to overwhelm hospitals.

It's relatively easy to toss glossy numbers around like "we saved lives via isolation"..."we flattened the curve".
Now...the immeasurable long term effects...suicides from businesses and careers lost, from retirement funds lost, from lost homes, repossessed cars, huge deep debt from credit, and the amount of people put out on the street because of no jobs, lost income, couldn't pay rent or mortgage, providers for families unable to provide...their spouses and children starving.

Many elders, if faced with the choice, would choose to allow their offspring to continue with successful lives and work and all that stuff we're losing now, by allowing themselves to be sacrificed. I don't know what parent would not do that!

nicely said!

 

[phaZed]

Now...the immeasurable long term effects...suicides from businesses and careers lost, from retirement funds lost, from lost homes, repossessed cars, huge deep debt from credit, and the amount of people put out on the street because of no jobs, lost income, couldn't pay rent or mortgage, providers for families unable to provide...their spouses and children starving.

While I agree with your overall assessment that lockdown can't be indefinite, and each of the problems you listed are indeed problems to be reckoned with...

The problems you list are not, in my view, problems caused by the shutdown.. those problems have only been exacerbated by the pandemic, not caused by it.

Maybe if 78% of people were not living paycheck to paycheck they would be able to weather the storm.
Maybe if wages rose with inflation over the last 40 years, instead of enriching the super-rich, people wouldn't need to live paycheck to paycheck.
Maybe if we didn't give 10+ Trillion from the treasury to the ultra-rich and "shot-callers" we could have had a larger safety net that didn't run dry of funds - those crumbs that were left over.... that are means-tested as well!

Etc. Etc... point being, if the "average person's economy" was doing well before the storm, we could have weathered it better. But it was abhorid already. All it needed was a "crisis" of any sort to show the cracks, and now people can fall in. Same as 2008-09.

This thread has been a "popcorn eating" display of what's wrong with this entire country... nobody is really grasping what is going on here. The country is being liquidated - this crisis is not going to waste for the power players. They would rather you go bankrupt and steal your homes, cars, and any other possessions they can. They would rather steal your wages to produce cheap labor with minimal benefits and safety nets. See, the corporate cleptocracy is what really matters. Not people.

We're watching the largest transfer of wealth from the lower and middle class society to the top % of people... again.

I don't want my parents or any older people to die so that the ultra rich can get a little richer... sacrificing them isn't going to make our lives better - that's the red herring.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

While I agree with your overall assessment that lockdown can't be indefinite, and each of the problems you listed are indeed problems to be reckoned with...

The problems you list are not, in my view, problems caused by the shutdown.. those problems have only been exacerbated by the pandemic, not caused by it.

Maybe if 78% of people were not living paycheck to paycheck they would be able to weather the storm.
Maybe if wages rose with inflation over the last 40 years, instead of enriching the super-rich, people wouldn't need to live paycheck to paycheck.
Maybe if we didn't give 10+ Trillion from the treasury to the ultra-rich and "shot-callers" we could have had a larger safety net that didn't run dry of funds - those crumbs that were left over.... that are means-tested as well!

Etc. Etc... point being, if the "average person's economy" was doing well before the storm, we could have weathered it better. But it was abhorid already. All it needed was a "crisis" of any sort to show the cracks, and now people can fall in. Same as 2008-09.

.

That's all rosy and warm 'n fuzzy ideal sounding....but also a condition pre-dating this exact flu topic by many decades. Thus..a totally separate issue.

This issue is actually about the average Joe. Let's look a the average small business owner. Yeah the super/mega rich will be fine through all this, and honestly they're not my concern. My concern is..my family, my neighbors, my friends, my colleagues...most of which are in the same boat I'm in. Many of which...are doing worse...I'm lucky enough to have a job that is essential and still needed. I have lots of friends who...own small businesses, or work at businesses..that are not essential. Sure...many can work from home...but..their business type is such that they're dead in the water..so why work from home when there's nothing to do?

And..BTW...similar issues happening in other countries, many of which aren't doing as well as the US because some countries aren't doing bailouts/handouts.

The "safety net"...regardless of economy...that's often/usually within ones own control. If a person chooses to have a 3 month cushion, or a 6 month cushion, or a big 1 year rainy day fund...or...chooses to live paycheck by paycheck...much of that is a choice. Don't always have to get a new car every 3 years or a new 1,000 dollar iphone every other year. Many people just choose to live above their means. And then an issue like this happens...and BOOM..they're in the hole.

 

[phaZed]

I'm not trying to be contrary here or have a line-by-line rebuttal even though it may come out that way

That's all rosy and warm 'n fuzzy ideal sounding....but also a condition pre-dating this exact flu topic by many decades. Thus..a totally separate issue.

That's exactly my point. You shouldn't be blaming the coronavirus for the decades-old problems that existed prior. So when you say "long-term immeasurable effects of coronavirus/lockdown" - It isn't. It's quite literally the effects of those long-term issues now coming home to roost.

My concern is..my family, my neighbors, my friends, my colleagues...most of which are in the same boat I'm in. Many of which...are doing worse...I'm lucky enough to have a job that is essential and still needed. I have lots of friends who...own small businesses, or work at businesses..that are not essential. Sure...many can work from home...but..their business type is such that they're dead in the water..so why work from home when there's nothing to do?

I'm not sure I'm fully grasping what you're trying to point out, here. Yes, if your 'work' isn't telecommutable or viable for remote, don't work. OK, I agree. The problem is that, in my eyes, people that are "out of a job" during this should have been taken care of and they were not. Instead, multi-national companies that made Billions in profits were "bailed out" to the tune of Trillions. Oil companies are getting bailed out, airlines are getting bailed out. We get $1200 per person for a 3-4 month "outage". Well, gee, thanks for that $2.50/hr pay (1200 \ 480 hours)! Whoopty doo! I'm soooo happy that corporations are getting bailed out into "profit" (not break-even) - of which WE will have to pay back. We privatize the gains and socialize the losses.

And..BTW...similar issues happening in other countries, many of which aren't doing as well as the US because some countries aren't doing bailouts/handouts.

I will happily accept whatever evidence you can point to to prove that - genuinely interested. From what I have been reading (not scientific nor taken as gospel; it's just too early IMO), the US is doing one of the worst jobs and is fairing the worst, or at least at the top of the list of the worst. Our problems stem from our "JIT" (Just in time) manufacturing (or lack thereof) and our being a "service economy". Most other countries have production of their own which allows them to produce for themselves... we have to "order" stuff from others. That's just one issue out of a dozen others I could fill this post with to compare/contrast other countries. NOTE: when I say "the US is one of the worst" I am/articles are comparing 1st world, "globalist" countries. Not Sudan, for instance. eg. Italy and Spain have had their own issues prior to CV19 that have caused extra anguish.... making them harder to directly compare.

The "safety net"...regardless of economy...that's often/usually within ones own control. If a person chooses to have a 3 month cushion, or a 6 month cushion, or a big 1 year rainy day fund...or...chooses to live paycheck by paycheck...much of that is a choice. Don't always have to get a new car every 3 years or a new 1,000 dollar iphone every other year. Many people just choose to live above their means.

Ya, but the numbers don't bear out what you state. Nor does the US fiscal policy of credit and debt. Let me start with Debt/Credit. Our entire system is based on Debt. If everyone were to "act responsibly" and not get debt the system would crash and burn... that should tell you something about our fiscal policy and how debt is foisted upon us as "the way to go" - so, it makes it that much harder to blame the little guy for participating in a "debt system" when there is hardly an alternative. eg. Try to get a house or a car loan without prior debt... paid or unpaid. Try to get an apartment that isn't an absolute **** hole... good luck.
The cardinal sin in this country is being responsible... I'm a perfect example... 12 years ago I had never had debt, I always simply paid for the things I wanted. Well, that makes me "risky" for having no prior debt. Try getting a house? Nope. Try Getting a car note? Nope. Try getting a $2000 loan for a pro hard drive recovery/cloner(mostly to build credit) - from the bank you have been with for 8 years prior? Nope. I had to take on debt in the form of Credit Cards and loans that were co-signed by my parents... simply to build my "Credit". I was punished for "not owing anybody anything" and showing that I have lived the previous 10+ years of my life responsibly.

Secondly, by the numbers:
The average take home for the US worker is $39,129 per year (118 Million people) or $3261/month after taxes. Link
The average take home for a household is $63,179/yr. Link
The average US rent for a two bedroom apt is $1343 and is rising 4.1-5.5% YoY. Link
The average Mortgage payment on median home price($257,000) is $1140 (30yr) or $1646(15yr) - avg of those is $1393. Link
A family of four's grocery bill is avg of $1075/month. Link
Health insurance on avg. for a single individual is $7188/yr or $20576/yr for a family. Link
Utilities for a typical US family is $2060/yr. Link
Car insurance avg is $1758/yr. Link
Average Homeowners insurance is $1192/yr. Link

So, let's talk "family" as opposed to "individual".
$63,179 - Family Take-Home
- $16,716/yr mortgage
- $12,900/yr Groceries
- $20,576/yr Health Insurance
- $2060/yr Utilities
- $1758/yr car insurance
- $1192/yr Homeowners insurance

That's $55,202 right there, nothing else. That leaves only $7,977/yr of "discretionary spending", or $664.75/mo.

Now factor in clothes, gas, car repairs... other normal things that we all have to deal with
Avg fuel and maintenance costs for a "small sedan" @ 15K miles /yr is $6354/yr. Link and Link
Clothing/Clothing services for a household, avg is $1604/yr. Link

That leaves you with $19 left over FOR THE YEAR.

So, it's not hard to see why people are cash-strapped when you do the numbers. It's not iPhones and new cars every three years, as you say. I know you were simply using those as examples for sake of argument... but let's look at that too... Are people really spending on frivolous items? Is a cell phone not a necessity in this day and age?

The US population in totality is 328-331 Million people.
The US sold 17 Million vehicles in totality, for 2019. That doesn't sound like everyone is buying cars. At this rate, people are keeping their cars for 19.4 years! (331 \ 17=19.4).

As for phones.. that can be a mixed bag.. 185 Million iPhones were sold in 2019, down from 200 Million in 2018. The kicker is that the $599 iPhone XR was the best selling at 48% of sales... the $1000 iPhone only captured 9% of sales. Link

Really, though.. when you work through it.. it's not hard to see why people are cash-strapped... and IMO, it isn't because they're all out there spending like drunken sailors. It's because Health insurance is rising 5%+ every year. It's because everything is getting more "expensive" to the tune of 5-12% YoY(depending on sector) while wages have stayed relatively the same (less than 2.5% avg. YoY wage growth up until 2017). From the 1980's wage growth has halved. Costs didn't. Inflation didn't. There's the problem.

 

[britechguy]

@phaZed,

Yep, and you're not alone in recognizing the long standing state of affairs. One of your comments immediately echoed a quotation I snagged way back in 2008:

With the bailout of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, the Reagan revolution has at last realized the robber barons’ dream: privatize the profits and socialize the debt. Nicely done, fellas.
~ Candida Pugh, Oakland, CA, Sept. 8, 2008

Not to mention that it goes back well before Reagan, though his policies put all this on hyperdrive.

This country has socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor.
~ Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

And I'd say that since the Reagan era we could change MLK's observation, substituting, "ultra-rich" for "rich," and "everyone else" for "poor." But make no mistake, the poor have taken the worst of the brunt.

<Cue music:> The rich get richer and the poor get poorer,
In the meantime, in between time,
Ain't we got fun!

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

So when you say "long-term immeasurable effects of coronavirus/lockdown" - It isn't. It's quite literally the effects of those long-term issues now coming home to roost.....

. We get $1200 per person for a 3-4 month "outage". Well, gee, thanks for that $2.50/hr pay (1200 \ 480 hours)!

So...if people are living paycheck by paycheck...how is a multi-month unemployment going to help? With diminished wages upon return to work...whenever that might be...next fall? Next winter? If they're lucky and their prior employer is still in business. Or..they were young entrepreneurs and their startup biz closed it's doors and now it's time to be the boomerang kid and return to living with mommy and daddy?

That 1200 dollar/ 2400 dollar personal/household stimulus check..I doubt many here qualify for it..most of us here aren't going to get anything from that...most of us should have income that exceed its qualifiers.

And come next year, when the value of the dollar from handouts declined? Things get pricier? COL goes through the roof...compounded with smaller wages?

Let me be clear, I'm not blaming the virus itself...we've had enough hints for decades this was going to happen. I'm blaming the reaction to it.
The way the rich have become richer, the government..(both sides)...is just there to service it self, the middle class is disappearing, the poor are poorer..that's all not debated, and water is wet and the earth is round. That's old news. I'm focusing on the shutdown..and the longer that goes..the worse things will get for a LOT of people. The numbers from the hurting are slowly growing.

 

[Sky-Knight]

It is very true that the only reason COVID is a disaster is systemic economic stupidity, that's all summed up with the buzz words "wealth disparity".

All the money going into unemployment and such is effectively worthless. Those using those benefits will consume the resources, the resources will pass into the hands of rental property owners, store owners, and various service owners. Those owners even if they are smaller operators, will ultimately use that money to buy something else and on up the chain the money goes. In shorter order than anyone wants to admit, the wealthiest 1% will have control of all those funds... on top of the bailouts they already got directly...

So now they are flush with cash, just in time for the city and state governments, along with countless individuals and small business owners to declare bankruptcy, which shoves property up to auction on the cheap. Property that can now be bought up by the 1% flush with cash.

Here's some news you may have missed to support the above: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2...x_b4pYY62rwQB6vhUK2VFNDGUf-VOoIetVuoHaEc6D9kc

Which leaves us all with less...
Living in areas with governments that now rent their own properties instead of owning them...
Which drives up tax rates, weakens our government, and transfers power into the hands of unelected monsters that paid Congress to make this happen to begin with.

Did the US fight a war to cast off a Monarchy? Why are we all so OK with the likes of JP Morgan Chase and Wells Fargo owning everything? Once they own everything they are simply a new monarch!

And who passed the bills that enabled all this? The House... the Senate... and the Oval office... near unanimously. I assume other nations have similar events going on.

We the people are very much in trouble. If we go back to work, we do so at the risk to our own lives and our loved ones. And those that caused this mess to begin with profit from us, and weaken us for the trade. It's a wonderful world we live in.

And no, none of this is new... President Lincoln had this to say about it, in a letter to Congress written in 1862:

It is not needed, nor fitting here [in discussing the Civil War] that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions; but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effect to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor, in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them, and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded thus far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now, there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

“Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights.

The American experiment has been in trouble for a VERY long time. COVID just shined a bright light on it. Most other capitalist nations suffer from the same problem in various degrees.

Going back to work at the risk of ourselves, is the trap... that's how we continue this mess. You want a fix? You need systemic disruption... you need the financial sectors to collapse. You NEED a depression. We cause that by staying home.

On either path we all suffer, our families suffer. But one of them has hope for our children, the other enslaves them to the same stupidity.

 

[callthatgirl]

Florida beaches and pools open. I can swim again and it's for exercise, so this shut down didn't help me with my health in that aspect.

Back to hoarders, it wasn't that bad here, but I love email hoarders haha.

 

[Kitten Kong]

Guys I know that this is hard times for everyone, with the lockdown in place globally, and tempers are high.

But can we please remember to be nice to everyone. I don't want to take action against anyone here, but will do if I deem it necessary.

Thank you.

 

[VISA MC]

Well, that makes me "risky" for having no prior debt. Try getting a house? Nope. Try Getting a car note? Nope. Try getting a $2000 loan for a pro hard drive recovery/cloner(mostly to build credit) - from the bank you have been with for 8 years prior? Nope. I had to take on debt in the form of Credit Cards and loans that were co-signed by my parents... simply to build my "Credit". I was punished for "not owing anybody anything" and showing that I have lived the previous 10+ years of my life responsibly.

That is simply not true, but many people think it is. You need to use a mortgage company or bank that does manual underwriting. I had the same issue trying to buy a car with dealer financing. I could write a check and buy it but they wouldn't loan me the money. My bank manually underwrote the loan and I bought the car that way. You need someone to manually look at the numbers and your situation, the old fashioned way, and you'll be fine.

Secondly, by the numbers:
The average take home for the US worker is $39,129 per year (118 Million people) or $3261/month after taxes. Link
The average take home for a household is $63,179/yr. Link
The average US rent for a two bedroom apt is $1343 and is rising 4.1-5.5% YoY. Link
The average Mortgage payment on median home price($257,000) is $1140 (30yr) or $1646(15yr) - avg of those is $1393. Link
A family of four's grocery bill is avg of $1075/month. Link
Health insurance on avg. for a single individual is $7188/yr or $20576/yr for a family. Link
Utilities for a typical US family is $2060/yr. Link
Car insurance avg is $1758/yr. Link
Average Homeowners insurance is $1192/yr. Link

So, let's talk "family" as opposed to "individual".
$63,179 - Family Take-Home
- $16,716/yr mortgage
- $12,900/yr Groceries
- $20,576/yr Health Insurance
- $2060/yr Utilities
- $1758/yr car insurance
- $1192/yr Homeowners insurance

That's $55,202 right there, nothing else. That leaves only $7,977/yr of "discretionary spending", or $664.75/mo.

As you say, these are averages. It can absolutely be done, people have to be smart. In 2008 I had less than $600 to my name. I was in a new state, new city and knew really nobody. I got a job within walking distance of a one bedroom apartment to save fuel and money. It was $525 a month. I made $18,000 a year at that job. Over 4 years I got raises and the rent stayed the same and I built up a little bit of savings and worked on computers and did basic web development for local businesses. I had a Samsung Blackjack phone, no cable (still don't), a 1992 car, liability only insurance, etc.

The issue is everyone thinks they need $200 cable packages, $1,000+ cell phones, brand new cars, boats, jet skis, four wheelers, 2,000 square foot houses etc. And they simply can't afford it. With consumer financing everywhere you can finance a pack of gum and people do it.

People can bake a choice but the vast majority want instant gratification and don't understand the ramifications down the line.

Now the rest of my story for anyone interested, it's 2020 my company services customers in 5 states and crossed the 7 figure mark.

I do think I am in the minority and peer pressure is real, but it can absolutely be done. People don't need the best of the best if they can't afford it.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@VISA MC Basic knowledge of how money works, something that should be taught as part of our K-12 education system, and yet isn't...

And because of that, endless terrible decisions, multiplied over an entire economy, leaves the population without the resources to care for themselves when the hard times come.

So you're not entirely wrong when you say people are poor because they choose to be, that's a fact. However, here in the US there's a massive hole in your logic... chronic medical.

I'd be in your position right now with either of the companies I own, but 5 years ago one of my kids became diabetic, and now he requires $2500 / month in supplies or he DIES. Our medical system can get you back on your feet if something happens most of the time, but anyone with any real medical challenge is flat knocked out of the economic race. That bill is higher than what I pay in Federal taxes, 2.5x my mortgage... and that's AFTER I fork over $2200 / month for medical insurance. This also doesn't take into account the time I sink into analyzing his blood sugar because he's just that darned unstable. Seriously, it's easier to track down an Emotet infection than it is to manage his blood sugar... But it's not like I have a choice, I'm rather responsible for keeping him breathing.

So there goes my spare time and money usually used for marketing... All because my son got the wrong cold...

Such influences utterly destroy any changes of economic prosperity for the individuals in question. And don't mistake me, I'm not calling for socialized medicine. Insulin in particular is made right here in the US and sold in Mexico and Canada for pennies compared to what it's sold at here. And that's AFTER we've subsidized that operation on every governmental level. And that's just the stuff I know about because I live it. But we have a huge problem as a people, because none of us can survive any real medical issues.

Because yeah, otherwise with a bit of fiscal planning, and banking on yourself you can go very far on even a min wage income. But people have to be willing to give things up to get ahead. And the largest thing you give up? kids... childbirth is the single largest indicator of poverty... yet another life lesson high school aged kids should be taught uniformly. But all of this is the real issue if you think about it. COVID sucks, but any disaster would have tripped us up as a civilization because of the general lack of resources at the bottom. And why that happens is a very complex situation, a good portion of which is in the hands of the "poor" people involved.

But never forget, you have nothing if you don't have your health is still very true here in 2020. And if you've managed to say relatively healthy, you can break the chains of poverty. But that's still an *if*, so yes you are indeed lucky. Enjoy it!

 

[phaZed]

@YeOldeStonecat @VISA MC
I understand the argument of "pulling one's self up by the bootstraps", as they say. However, that problem is only a smaller proportion of the whole.

How does one square the fact that in February of 2019, US income inequality was back to levels of the great depression and the Gilded Age? Historically, those events would be considered an uneven playing ground for "everybody" - and generally "not their fault", but the fault of power and greed.
How could THAT not be the overarching problem? To think that we would go back to a person in the bread lines during the great depression and tell them that their not trying hard enough smacks of not facing the reality of the situation, IMO.

 

[VISA MC]

@YeOldeStonecat @VISA MC
I understand the argument of "pulling one's self up by the bootstraps", as they say. However, that problem is only a smaller proportion of the whole.

How does one square the fact that in February of 2019, US income inequality was back to levels of the great depression and the Gilded Age? Historically, those events would be considered an uneven playing ground for "everybody" - and generally "not their fault", but the fault of power and greed.
How could THAT not be the overarching problem? To think that we would go back to a person in the bread lines during the great depression and tell them that their not trying hard enough smacks of not facing the reality of the situation, IMO.

Personally, I don't really care about the inequality rates etc.
Almost every business owner I talk to cannot find employees, there's a fast food pizza chain in my town starting at $14/hour which is $30k a year. Mind you, you wouldn't be paying a $2k mortgage on that, but you could certainly afford to live as long as you live within your means. If it's a family of two, they could live comfortably if you live within your means.

However, here in the US there's a massive hole in your logic... chronic medical.

You are correct. I have unlimited admiration for people that are in your position. However, it was "average" numbers that were listed and I would have to say that the average American does not have to plan around a chronic medical condition.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

@YeOldeStonecat @VISA MC
I understand the argument of "pulling one's self up by the bootstraps", as they say. However, that problem is only a smaller proportion of the whole.

How does one square the fact that in February of 2019, US income inequality was back to levels of the great depression and the Gilded Age? Historically, those events would be considered an uneven playing ground for "everybody" - and generally "not their fault", but the fault of power and greed..

I have not been disputing the fact that "the small % of rich get richer, and the middle class is disappearing, and the poor get poorer".
That is a whole separate topic.

I was born and raised into lower middle class...by very conservative parents that lived very frugally. Last house on the street to get cable, I didn't get a console gaming system when other friends did for Christmas, parents had used cars more often than new cars. Both worked hard...and saved for the future....for retirement. They're ones who would have had a couple of years worth of nest egg to live off of during a closure like this. But 3 years before my dad was to retire and enjoy a nice retirement...cancer took him down. So that changed my whole mind set to work hard, but play harder and live for "now".

Anyways, if we're typing on this forum, we're in the IT field..and we're in control of our jobs, and our income. We're fortunate enough be in a career that allows us to make as much money as we want...if we work hard. We're not limited to some factory time clock punching card ...waiting for some meager 2.5% COL living every 3-5 years on our mid to upper teens hourly wage.

I've been doing OK for the past few years. My 401k did GREAT last year!
My wife...a high school drop out who hit the streets at around age 14 because of a horrible home life, has become a very successful Realtor...usually in the top 5% in our state, making 6 figures.(whelp...except not this year...but hopefully the 2nd half of the year will pick up).

Yup..it's up to you and how much you can pull up your pants!

 

[britechguy]

Yup..it's up to you and how much you can pull up your pants!

That premise has been disproven, repeatedly, by social science research that's been replicated.

It is very far from "up to you" and the persistence of the myth that it all lies with the individual is just that: a myth.

(By the way, and not that it matters, but my upbringing was not all that different from yours. I just realize that luck, and a lot of assistance from people and programs like student loans [before those became a way to trap students], is what made all the difference. I would no sooner be where I am exclusively of my own work and volition than I could be on the surface of the moon under the power of my own arms to fly me there.)

 

[pcpete]

All I know when it comes to what we want to have in our lives we can look for ways to achieve it or look for excuses why it won't happen. Either way we look, we will succeed This basic law of nature applies to everything

 

[britechguy]

All I know when it comes to what we want to have in our lives we can look for ways to achieve it or look for excuses why it won't happen. Either way we look, we will succeed This basic law of nature applies to everything

That, I cannot disagree with. If you're convinced that something can't happen you can pretty much guarantee it won't. If you're convinced you can achieve something, you may not achieve it, but the quest to do so will generally result in your ending up in a better situation (and in your figuring out what you can achieve).

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

That premise has been disproven, repeatedly, by social science research that's been replicated.

It is very far from "up to you" and the persistence of the myth that it all lies with the individual is just that: a myth.

We'll have to agree to disagree...I know waaaaaayyyyy too many people that came from bad scenarios and succeed with hard work and determination.

 

[Sky-Knight]

We'll have to agree to disagree...I know waaaaaayyyyy too many people that came from bad scenarios and succeed with hard work and determination.

They didn't get sick...

Also, I know those people too, the problem is they are a statistical minority. To make matters worse, successful people tend to surround themselves with such. So we get roped into an ugly confirmation bias loop too.