D7's DataGrab vs. Fab's AutoBackup 4 Tech

[Martyn]

Seeing as how you already use D7 you have access to most of the informational features that D7/DataGrab offers over Fab's already, so not much benefit other than the partition and wild card searches...

But I'm not trying to get existing users of Fab's to make the switch as much as I'm trying to improve DataGrab... and you are correct, I'm starting to see that data RESTORE is a must and something that I need to make a priority. In my routine now I manually just copy the files back to where they should be. I haven't made data restore a priority because the manual copy is as simple as copying the users/docs and settings folder over the top of the one on the fresh install... but I'm starting to see that even as simple as that is, it should probably be automated.

I'm the same as others, I use Fabs all the time and the restore function is absolutely imperative for me.

 

[FoolishTech]

I'm the same as others, I use Fabs all the time and the restore function is absolutely imperative for me.

Can you tell me if Fab's automatically creates the user accounts when restoring the data, or must the user accounts be created manually BEFORE restoring the data?

Complications of having to create and login each user account before putting the data back is the big hump on why I never finished the DataRestore functionality of DataGrab.

 

[Martyn]

Can you tell me if Fab's automatically creates the user accounts when restoring the data, or must the user accounts be created manually BEFORE restoring the data?

Complications of having to create and login each user account before putting the data back is the big hump on why I never finished the DataRestore functionality of DataGrab.

You create the account and select the account data you want to restore.

 

[Jeffreynya]

No, what I said is most definitely correct - try it and you will see. Your Altiris tool may very well have a workaround, however. I'd love to know the secret. Well, technically I can stop windows from creating an alternate profile path by filling out a certain registry key, however doing so won't trigger all the stuff that windows does when a user first logs in; side effects include no themes, user start menu shortcuts not being created, etc. etc.

I will see if I can get more details on the tool and how it works. But I use it every day. I get a new PC with no user profiles on it and use this small little tool to create a users profile from there login name. Once its created I move all the data from the backup and take the PC to the user. They login and go about there day with a perfectly functioning profile. So it is possible and does work just fine.

-edit I should note that when the user logs in it does go through the normal profile stuff you would normally see when you login for the first time, but my docs, favorites and desktop remain untouched and all the data that was moved to them is there for the user to access. So it does not at the start create a fully functional profile, but after first login its good to go.

 

[FoolishTech]

You create the account and select the account data you want to restore.

So you have to manually create the user first. OK, but don't you also have to login the user that you created first so that the user profile can set itself up?

What I was working on with my DataRestore.exe, is that it created the user accounts for you, then logged in each one first so the profile was created and setup properly, prior to restoring the data. I'd like to find a better method where you don't need to login to the user account after creation and before data restore.

I will see if I can get more details on the tool and how it works. But I use it every day. I get a new PC with no user profiles on it and use this small little tool to create a users profile from there login name. Once its created I move all the data from the backup and take the PC to the user. They login and go about there day with a perfectly functioning profile. So it is possible and does work just fine.

-edit I should note that when the user logs in it does go through the normal profile stuff you would normally see when you login for the first time, but my docs, favorites and desktop remain untouched and all the data that was moved to them is there for the user to access. So it does not at the start create a fully functional profile, but after first login its good to go.

Do me a HUGE favor. Before running your tool to create the user profile, get a program called RegShot. You can get it on SourceForge.

In RegShot, check the option to scan a directory, and point it to \Documents and Settings (or \Users if it's Vista/7) then take the first SNAPSHOT.

Leave RegShot open. Next, run your tool to create the user profile. After it has finished creating the profile, run the second SNAPSHOT of RegShot, and then run the COMPARE option. Zip up the resulting html file and upload it to this thread.

That result file will pretty much hold the KEY to figuring out how to do this. As I said, creating a new user account is trivial, but preparing it for first use is where I am completely stumped. I could very much use a result file to see what your program is doing to the file system and registry to prepare the new user account properly.

 

[Jeffreynya]

Sure I can do that. May take me a few days as we are swapped, but I will get to it.

 

[Martyn]

I don't think it is a big problem to create an account first.

Say you want to do a N&P so you use Fabs for the backup and back all the profiles. The reality is there is only one account but say there are three.
You reload the OS and create your first account then restore the data. Then create the other two accounts and log in with each restoring the data to each one. It isn't a big deal to do it that way. I like the way Fabs works in a sequence but I have now had a look at Datagrab and it looks good. As like others Fabs was already there and I have been using it for months if not more than a year so i'm quite into bed with it.

 

[uprighttech]

So you have to manually create the user first. OK, but don't you also have to login the user that you created first so that the user profile can set itself up?

Yes, you have to login to each profile that you want to restore and choose the location of the profile backup that you want to restore.

As far as manual restore, it is trivial for docs, pictures and such, but Fab's will backup/restore lots of other data that isn't as simple like Outlook PST's and autocomplete file, Outlook Express, Window Mail, Windows Live Mail, Thunderbird, Chrome, Firefox, Picasa, Skype, Messenger, Wallpaper and Screensaver, Windows Sidebar, Office activation file, mail setting, etc, etc (don't have in front of me now, but there is a lot more). Just a couple of clicks and all that data is right back where it should be. Manually restoring all of that would take WAY longer.

 

[FoolishTech]

Sure I can do that. May take me a few days as we are swapped, but I will get to it.

Great! I'll wait for your results! PM me if you would as I might not catch this thread in a few days time

I don't think it is a big problem to create an account first.

Say you want to do a N&P so you use Fabs for the backup and back all the profiles. The reality is there is only one account but say there are three.
You reload the OS and create your first account then restore the data. Then create the other two accounts and log in with each restoring the data to each one. It isn't a big deal to do it that way. I like the way Fabs works in a sequence but I have now had a look at Datagrab and it looks good. As like others Fabs was already there and I have been using it for months if not more than a year so i'm quite into bed with it.

Hey NP, as I said I'm not trying to convert people necessarily; I don't mind ppl having preferences that aren't my own apps of course (as long as you at least use D7 itself them I'm satisfied hehe), but more or less I just want to compare the two (learn a little more about what Fab's does and does not do) and improve DataGrab.

Now I will say that creating each user account and having to login first before restoring the data is absolutely a PITA IMO when there are multiple user accounts. That is exactly why I've never completed Data Restore functionality of DataGrab......... I'm glad to see that Fab's doesn't do that either!!! Now I don't feel so bad about DataGrab lacking in that area.

But if ppl don't mind doing the user account login before restoring data (I can easily add the ability for DataGrab to backup and create the actual user accounts automatically) then I can go ahead and whip up data restore functionality, no problem!

In fact, until I figure out proper user profile creation without the need to login, I think I will go ahead with the DataRestore functionality and let ppl login the accounts themselves, and just add in the user profile creation whenever I get it figured out...

 

[FoolishTech]

Yes, you have to login to each profile that you want to restore and choose the location of the profile backup that you want to restore.

As far as manual restore, it is trivial for docs, pictures and such, but Fab's will backup/restore lots of other data that isn't as simple like Outlook PST's and autocomplete file, Outlook Express, Window Mail, Windows Live Mail, Thunderbird, Chrome, Firefox, Picasa, Skype, Messenger, Wallpaper and Screensaver, Windows Sidebar, Office activation file, mail setting, etc, etc (don't have in front of me now, but there is a lot more). Just a couple of clicks and all that data is right back where it should be. Manually restoring all of that would take WAY longer.

LOL I see your list, I've already made it check out the spreadsheet comparison I referred to in my first post.

But the way that DataGrab backs up those files like you are talking about (e.g. Outlook NK2, etc.) it preserves the directory structure, so restoring all of that really is as trivial as copying over the entire Docs and Settings/Users folder from DataGrab's backup location over top of the folder on the fresh install.

The only exception is certain mail store formats like OE's DBX files, I don't just shove them into a preserved directory structure backup because they would be ignored and you would need to reimport them manually anyway.

HOWEVER, I recently added the ability to backup OE user account information to a .REG file, and I SUSPECT that importing the reg file will allow OE to automatically pick up the DBX files if they were in a preserved directory structure, so I might just change that exception - I'll have to do some experimenting.

 

[Martyn]

Great I would rather use one program for everything. As said it's the rest of the stuff like Outlook etc. Fabs is a great program and if Datagrab can do at least the same I will use that functionaity as well.

 

[Rodrick]

I use almost every one of your apps and D7 is a lifesaver. With that said, I had Fabs before, it's never let me down and when I tested out DataGrab it seemed less polished which at that time I read as most likely less reliable (may or may not have been true, but I wasn't about to even give it a try on client's machines). Granted this was earlier days of D7

The main reason I use Fabs is the sheer amount of different things it backs up and how flawlessly it restores (at least with one user account which is 90%+ of the machines I work on).

Caveats I've found in order to give you a target as to what we find acceptable:

• Many apps require installation of course before restoration, installation often overwrites restored files.
• Accounts need created and logged on (often I just restore that profile while logged in as the user being restored).
• Outlook profiles only restore properly about 4/5ths of the time, and pretty much never if Outlook has been opened before restoration.

Oh, not a caveat but a stupid thing that my home customers (and some business end users) absolutely love … the backup and restoration of their background texture and preferences, even between different OS versions. Something that we techs think "Really? That's the killer feature for you end user?" but many have commented upon.

Oh, and the folder structure seems to restore between OS versions and architecture (x86 vs x64). I often use Fabs to backup from an XP machine and restore to a fresh Win7 x64 machine with no troubles. That's the killer feature for me (not sure how DataGrab handles that situation).

 

[uprighttech]

LOL I see your list, I've already made it check out the spreadsheet comparison I referred to in my first post.

But the way that DataGrab backs up those files like you are talking about (e.g. Outlook NK2, etc.) it preserves the directory structure, so restoring all of that really is as trivial as copying over the entire Docs and Settings/Users folder from DataGrab's backup location over top of the folder on the fresh install.

I'll check out the spreadsheet soon. On phone now.

Does your process of maintaining the entire directory structure work between Windows versions (for instance XP to 7)? XP has Application Data folder where 7 uses AppData. Fab's works great when backing up and restoring between different versions. Sorry of this question was already answered in the spreadsheet.

 

[Rodrick]

Answering a ? mark on the spreadsheet for Fabs v4 at least:

• Backup to UNC paths: Yes

Quicklaunch: Yes for many of my end users this is necessary as they utilize this heavily (note: can't restore quicklaunch to Win7 since it doesn't use quicklaunch)

The item listed as

Full List of Installed Applications

and other such things are just reported right? Might want to make that clear since there can be no restoration of such data automatically. IIRC, Fabs doesn't do any reporting of information that it cannot restore.

 

[FoolishTech]

Oh, and the folder structure seems to restore between OS versions and architecture (x86 vs x64). I often use Fabs to backup from an XP machine and restore to a fresh Win7 x64 machine with no troubles. That's the killer feature for me (not sure how DataGrab handles that situation).

Never noted any differences in x86 vs x64. For XP to Vista/7, no problem - see same question/answer below.

Does your process of maintaining the entire directory structure work between Windows versions (for instance XP to 7)? XP has Application Data folder where 7 uses AppData. Fab's works great when backing up and restoring between different versions. Sorry of this question was already answered in the spreadsheet.

Yes, actually the differences between XP's Application Data and Vista/7's AppData structure, or XP's My Documents structure vs. Vista/7's, all of that is actually taken care of not by DataGrab (and probably not by Fab's either) but by Windows Vista/7 itself when you copy the files back over. It's actually a neat and little realized feature of Windows thanks to junctions and redirection points for backwards compatibility.

Example, I can backup an XP box and have all my user profiles in the backup location\Documents and Settings. When I migrate that to a Vista/7 box, I just select all the user profiles in Documents and Settings from the backup loc, and copy. Then paste to the \Users folder on the fresh install of Vista/7.

During the file copy, Windows itself will automatically move "\My Documents" to "\Documents", it will also prompt you to move "My Documents\My Pictures" to "..\Pictures", etc. etc. for the folders inside My Documents now stored in the root of the user profile, and it will also automatically move Application Data folders to their respective locations inside AppData.

So even when migrating data to a newer version of Windows, it's still as simple as copy/paste the user folders and you're done. Windows takes care of all of that for you.

Backup to UNC paths: Yes

Fixed, thanks!

Quicklaunch: Yes for many of my end users this is necessary as they utilize this heavily (note: can't restore quicklaunch to Win7 since it doesn't use quicklaunch)

But... what shortcut in quicklaunch that you backup/restore actually works until you install the app - which would install the quicklaunch shortcut anyway?! I'm sorry, I fail to see the point in backing that up... EDIT: Note I can just imagine that yes it would be useful if someone say, had manually placed a shortcut in there to something like a frequently used excel file, or similar, but in all my years I don't think I've ever seen an end user do that lol. I've only ever seen quicklaunch shortcuts be placed there by app installs...

The item listed as and other such things are just reported right? Might want to make that clear since there can be no restoration of such data automatically. IIRC, Fabs doesn't do any reporting of information that it cannot restore.

Yes I noticed Fab's doesn't do that... Yes, the list of installed apps is merely that, a list. This was actually a user-requested feature and I feel it is important to have a full list of applications that the system had installed, so you can look it over and re-install what is necessary (if you go that extra mile for the client.) I do go that extra mile - granted I don't look at the list and install every little thing on it (toolbars LOL), but it's nice to browse it and pick out the key/important apps that you know your client will miss, so you can go ahead and reinstall them for the client.

Just my opinion, but it's also useful as I've had clients try to tell me they had office installed previously when they in fact did NOT. (in some cases it wasn't MICROSOFT office but OpenOffice or even Microsoft WORKS they were talking about; without that list I would have no way of knowing what they were talking about or proving otherwise should I need to.)

 

[Rodrick]

But... what shortcut in quicklaunch that you backup/restore actually works until you install the app - which would install the quicklaunch shortcut anyway?! I'm sorry, I fail to see the point in backing that up... EDIT: Note I can just imagine that yes it would be useful if someone say, had manually placed a shortcut in there to something like a frequently used excel file, or similar, but in all my years I don't think I've ever seen an end user do that lol. I've only ever seen quicklaunch shortcuts be placed there by app installs...

Let me give you an example: In one of my clients businesses, those that are on the phone need a way to see who's logged into the queue and who's out to lunch etc. The voip system they have only allows that information to be displayed in an admin console. There is a heavily modified uVNC shortcut that automatically connects them to the server running that application. Many move that to the quicklaunch. I also see a lot of mapped drives, etc. in the quicklaunch. None of these things are hard to recreate but its one more thing to remember to do and I'm going for as hands off as I can be.

We've all seen those users who, when presented with a desktop without the IE icon on it cannot figure out how to launch IE? Some of those are my customers and have discovered the quicklaunch toolbar When it's not directly to an app but rather a folder or a customized shortcut …

 

[FoolishTech]

Let me give you an example: In one of my clients businesses, those that are on the phone need a way to see who's logged into the queue and who's out to lunch etc. The voip system they have only allows that information to be displayed in an admin console. There is a heavily modified uVNC shortcut that automatically connects them to the server running that application. Many move that to the quicklaunch. I also see a lot of mapped drives, etc. in the quicklaunch. None of these things are hard to recreate but its one more thing to remember to do and I'm going for as hands off as I can be.

We've all seen those users who, when presented with a desktop without the IE icon on it cannot figure out how to launch IE? Some of those are my customers and have discovered the quicklaunch toolbar When it's not directly to an app but rather a folder or a customized shortcut …

Hmm... point taken. I'll add Quicklaunch to DG backups just in case.

EDIT: now that I think about it, what I really should do in addition to that, is add Quicklaunch to D7's broken desktop/start menu shortcut detection. I've taken to running that D7 feature after restoring data to a system with DataGrab, as it can auto-delete all of the restored shortcuts to software that isn't installed on the fresh OS install. That would make me feel a lot better about backing up / restoring possibly dead shortcuts in Quicklaunch...

 

[codegreen]

I'm a heavy D7 user, so I tested DataGrab. The deal-killer for me has already been mentioned: no automated restore. Fab's is so easy I don't even have to think about it. I know that DataGrab preserves the directory structure so it's a simple copy (with some exceptions?), but Fab's is just a couple of clicks and it handles everything. Also, selective restore is much easier with Fab's; if I've backed up setting that I don't want to go to the new machine, I just leave that unchecked for the restore. I'm not sure I can explain it properly, but DataGrab's interface and lack of automated restore increases the mental friction of the operation to a slightly uncomfortable point, which I don't get with Fab's.

Also, don't discount the usefulness of modem settings backup. A significant portion of my home-user clients are older rural folks. I don't have work with dialup connections often, but when I do, it's useful to have that checkbox in Fab's. I'm actually carrying an external modem in my tool bag which has seen some use in troubleshooting connections. I realize, however, that I'm in the minority.

 

[stevenamills]

I've found D7 a little more reliable when permissions are screwed up - at least it gives a warning, while FABs either pukes or misses users.

The deal killer for me, though, is DataGrab sees absolutely no users on my personal Win7 machine - a serious drawback. Fabs sees everything.

 

[uprighttech]

Also, selective restore is much easier with Fab's; if I've backed up setting that I don't want to go to the new machine, I just leave that unchecked for the restore.

Yes, I often will let it backup everything, but I don't necessarily restore everything to the new machine. Nice to be able to select which things I want to restore and which I don't.

Also, don't discount the usefulness of modem settings backup. A significant portion of my home-user clients are older rural folks. I don't have work with dialup connections often, but when I do, it's useful to have that checkbox in Fab's. I'm actually carrying an external modem in my tool bag which has seen some use in troubleshooting connections. I realize, however, that I'm in the minority.

I'm with you. I live in the largest county (by area) in Kentucky, which has only one city of any size. The entire county has about 75,000 people, and less than half of them reside in that city. So, lots of folks here still live out in the county where there are no good high speed internet options yet (or they are unwilling to pay for cellular or satellite). Being able to backup/restore their modem settings is a nice option.