American Politics (Namely, Healthcare)

[anonymous Mac Tech]

This thread has been split from this topic: http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12107
Which was about government incentives in business. However, a healthcare discussion began and so this separate thread has been created.

So what is your genius plan? Do away with taxes and let everyone give what they feel is fair? What about the countless services that are provided to you with tax money?

We'd be better off if everything was privately funded..Think if everything besides the essentials (i.e. military, police, fire) was privately offered and funded. Give us back our tax money and let us decide who to spend it with. No more national deficit and a much lower tax burden for small businesses and individuals and probably a much better economic situation.

 

[NWPhotog]

If I lobby and get a law passed that says everyone with last names beginning with A-L may, at their pleasure, hold guns to the heads of anyone with last names beginning with M-Z and take 50% of their property during any year, does that make it right? Legal theft is still theft.



To seek elected office within a system that can only be described as a group of men and women offering services at gunpoint (i.e. pay for them or else) is to become a member of that esteemed group, and thus, even if you work to minimize its scope, you are still paid with stolen money (taxes).



The best way to change the system is, in my opinion, to educate people as to its nature (see above), and show them that peace and voluntary interaction is a much better alternative to using force to get what you want.




If you find yourself in a world where the only real choices you are offered are which gang of thieves will plunder your land every single day you breathe, then yes, I'd say you have every right to complain.



McAfee, Norton, or others who offer things of value to me in exchange for things of value to them give me a choice of whether or not to make the exchange. If I walk into a store and am not allowed to leave without parting with my valuables in exchange for things I did not want, that is a much different set of circumstances.

After seeing you are in Illinois your extreme views made a little more sense. I don't think governments any where is quite as corrupt and a burden on its citizens as those in Illinois. Luckily I live in a state where government is much more in check and to a large degree does what its citizen wish it to. Police, Fire and roads are the main purpose but I think citizens have a right to choose more services if they choose. If it goes too far individuals certainly have a right to vote with their feet and choose a state or local more suitable to them. Everything balances out if you et it (and live outside of Illinois).

 

[Cue]

We'd be better off if everything was privately funded..Think if everything besides the essentials (i.e. military, police, fire) was privately offered and funded. Give us back our tax money and let us decide who to spend it with. No more national deficit and a much lower tax burden for small businesses and individuals and probably a much better economic situation.

That is very wrong.
Best example is the American health system.

You only get cured if you have the money to do so.
Private enterprise health care has its goals set on making money, not saving lives.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

That is very wrong.
Best example is the American health system.

You only get cured if you have the money to do so.
Private enterprise health care has its goals set on making money, not saving lives.

You think its going to be any better with the extreme liberal health care plan with the Death Board deciding who lives or dies? At least under the current plan there is a choice, even if it is based on Money. I'd rather have quality health care at a high price than the government managing the system. Thats okay, you'll see soon enough..

 

[Skyhooker]

So what is your genius plan? Do away with taxes and let everyone give what they feel is fair? What about the countless services that are provided to you with tax money?

I know you're only trying to be belligerent, but I don't have a "genius" plan, because I'm not a genius. I'm only pretty smart, very intellectually honest, and completely unafraid to peel away the next layer of the onion for what I'll find there. I only know that there are but two ways for people to interact: voluntarily or by force. Only one of those is the proper way. I know it's the first.

I also know that, whereas I am not a genius, genius exists. Mostly it's the simple, everyday genius of people offering what they love to do or make to others who have something of value to offer in return. The real genius of that is that, no matter how greedy or grasping anyone is, so long as they do not use force or fraud in their exchanges, everyone is immeasurably more prosperous as a result. Anything that people value, whether it's bread or roads or schools or medicine or physical protection, gets provided by someone who offers it for sale. If it's valuable, people are happy to pay for it. If it's not, they don't, and the service or product disappears.

What happens if people are free, and this is something no one could ever plan or manage, is the incredibly complex yet amazingly coordinated and efficient dance called the free market. All this from people acting only in their own self-interest, yet it's as if they acted only for others, because everyone is better off.

As far as the "services" you mentioned, if they're really doing me a service, I'll happily pay for them - just not at the point of a gun. If they're of value to someone else but not me, let them pay for them. If they're of value to no one, or only to those who would provide them at gunpoint, let them fade into history.


@NWPhotog: Yes, I suppose living in this filthy so-called state has brought home the truths I've discovered more fully or clearly than had I lived elsewhere. I've always been one to question pretty much everything, though, and I think I would have come to the same realizations no matter where I lived, though perhaps more slowly. As did Neo in "The Matrix," I choose the red pill.

Unfortunately, voting with your feet will no longer find you a place of freedom, only greater or lesser degrees of slavery. Besides, I'm trying to point out that there are thieves and murderers in our house. We shouldn't have to move out, but kick them out instead.

Peace


Sky

 

[JimO'C]

You think its going to be any better with the extreme liberal health care plan with the Death Board deciding who lives or dies? At least under the current plan there is a choice, even if it is based on Money. I'd rather have quality health care at a high price than the government managing the system. Thats okay, you'll see soon enough..

Yep, this is country is going to hell in a hand basket, THANKS!

 

[itwaskaisersoze]

We'd be better off if everything was privately funded..Think if everything besides the essentials (i.e. military, police, fire) was privately offered and funded. Give us back our tax money and let us decide who to spend it with. No more national deficit and a much lower tax burden for small businesses and individuals and probably a much better economic situation.

Wow- this is the first time I've seen a rant on this forum! I hate to fuel the fire, but it's hard for me to keep quiet on this issue. I strongly agree with anonymous Mac Tech. Our government is too big, and stupid, and cannot be trusted with large sums of money. Why? Because in the end, nobody has to take responsibility for their failed initiatives. They just blame it on someone else and move on. If that money were in the consumers' hands, consumers would be more responsible with it. Consumers have to make every penny count, they have loved ones to look after. Some may laugh at this, but it's true.

I strongly discourage people from accepting assistance from the government. We haven't needed this much help in the past, so why should it be different now? Every penny of assistance or subsidizing that we accept only puts this country deeper in debt, and sooner or later it has to be paid. And we all know how debt it paid.

 

[JimO'C]

Wow- this is the first time I've seen a rant on this forum! I hate to fuel the fire, but it's hard for me to keep quiet on this issue. I strongly agree with anonymous Mac Tech. Our government is too big, and stupid, and cannot be trusted with large sums of money. Why? Because in the end, nobody has to take responsibility for their failed initiatives. They just blame it on someone else and move on. If that money were in the consumers' hands, consumers would be more responsible with it. Consumers have to make every penny count, they have loved ones to look after. Some may laugh at this, but it's true.

I strongly discourage people from accepting assistance from the government. We haven't needed this much help in the past, so why should it be different now? Every penny of assistance or subsidizing that we accept only puts this country deeper in debt, and sooner or later it has to be paid. And we all know how debt it paid.

Glad most of us here are all on the same page

 

[kentuckyjoe]

New here, but i can't help chiming in on this one. I've worked at the same company for 10 years, and was recently laid off with "no hope for recall in the foreseeable future", so I'm right in the middle of this one. AGREE our government is way to big and is the cause of all of this B.S., but with that said out of the $100K or so in taxes I've paid in my life, I plan on getting some of that back now. Un-employment has run out, wife has taken 2 jobs and I can't find work, so YES I'm going to take food stamps, etc. (if I absolutely have too) and use the rest of my savings to get my business off the ground. BUT, this will only be temporary. See, it's my money, I paid taxes so I don't feel bad about taking it. My goal is to be on my own 2 feet ASAP. Unfortunately America is a cradle to the grave society where people come to expect handouts in order to live. It is fine for a temporary fix, but people who abuse it (like doing what the OP said) should be thrown in prison for awhile and upon release pay oh.... let's say.... about 70% income tax, to repay there debt. Just my .02

 

[PCSupportGlasgow]

I'd rather have quality health care at a high price than the government managing the system. Thats okay, you'll see soon enough..

Free Healthcare works well here in the uk and to a high standard, and i'm sure the canadians are quite happy with the way it works there. so why couldnt it work in the USA?

 

[JimO'C]

Free Healthcare works well here in the uk and to a high standard, and i'm sure the canadians are quite happy with the way it works there. so why couldnt it work in the USA?

Just the fact they now they would have the right to chose who lives and who dies, instead of me, I WANT TO CONTROL MY LIFE, the US goverment is supposed to be "lassie fair" (hands off) but were moving more and more towards socializm every day, the things that make this country so great are going right out the door.

Pretty soon people will start jumping the border to get OUT of the US.

 

[hondablaster]

Free Healthcare works well here in the uk and to a high standard, and i'm sure the canadians are quite happy with the way it works there. so why couldnt it work in the USA?

Haha there are alot of Americans that do not have an educated opinion. And most of the time its conjecture. example. deathboards..... LOL

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

Haha there are alot of Americans that do not have an educated opinion. And most of the time its conjecture. example. deathboards..... LOL

Yeah I said deathboards. Uneducated? I'm a college grad, how about you?

 

[Cetamega]

Yeah I said deathboards. Uneducated? I'm a college grad, how about you?

You do realize that "death panels" don't exist in a single version of health care reform, right?

I used to hold some respect for you. It has all flown out the window. Please look for information somewhere other than Fox News.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/

If you can find one bit of evidence of anyone wanting to kill people instead of paying for their health care, I will eat my shoe.

Socialized health care works great in other parts of the world. It isn't going to kill grandma to save a buck, and it isn't going to be the end of the world. It is ridiculous that people should have to pay what they do for healthcare when they can't afford insurance.

Yep, this is country is going to hell in a hand basket, THANKS!

Is there a single generation that hasn't said this?

Lets only give police protection to those that can afford it.
Lets only give health care to those that can afford it.
Lets only give decent education to those that can afford it.
Lets only care about those that can afford it.

A completely free market without regulation doesn't work. See Enron. The powerful **** all over those that can't do anything about it.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

I used to hold some respect for you. It has all flown out the window. Please look for information somewhere other than Fox News.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/palin-vs-obama-death-panels/

If you can find one bit of evidence of anyone wanting to kill people instead of paying for their health care, I will eat my shoe.

Socialized health care works great in other parts of the world. It isn't going to kill grandma to save a buck, and it isn't going to be the end of the world. It is ridiculous that people should have to pay what they do for healthcare when they can't afford insurance.

Is there a single generation that hasn't said this?

I'll quit watching Fox news when you quit watching MSNBC. Of course they aren't going to put the phrase "death panel" in the bill. But lets write a bill and not say what it consists of and just RAM it through the house and senate before the end of the year, and then we can talk about it. Wonder why some of your liberal buddies in the senate were all in love with the bill and then completely did a 360 just before the vote, and they were from your own party. The majority of the population doesn't even want this bill. I thought this was a government made by the people for the people? But according to the libs we don't know what is good for us and we will have this thing anyhow. There will be a death board due to the severely declining quality of care and instead of the severely ill coming to this country for state of the art treatment, people will instead go to other countries due to the declining quality of care and what the government will deem unnecessary procedures. How is that for saving money? BTW hope you like the taste of your shoe..

Lets only give police protection to those that can afford it.
Lets only give health care to those that can afford it.
Lets only give decent education to those that can afford it.
Lets only care about those that can afford it.

A completely free market without regulation doesn't work. See Enron. The powerful **** all over those that can't do anything about it.

Why not just leave the boarders wide open and give health care to illegal aliens while they stay here and not pay taxes and continue to commit crimes against American citizens? You say a completely free market doesn't work but it has a much better record than socialism or did you not know about the fall of the Berlin Wall and the former Soviet Union?

 

[Tweak]

No specific comments on health-care exactly but I did recall seeing a show about Canadian health-care and many of the people interviewed did not make it sound very good at all...having EXTENSIVE medical issues (still ongoing) for around 20 yrs I don't really like the idea of it changing if ANY of those interviewed are anywhere near accurate.

Quick Google search turns up plenty of info, some which my actually be useful...one potential example http://www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html

 

[hondablaster]

@AMT if you read the entire webpage you will find that the people WANTED the more "socialized" public option. Acording to that site. Your link actually works against your main initial point. Correct! They actually did not want the Liberman modified bill they WANTED THE PUBLIC OPTION!

So how this actually helps YOU!, and your entire argument is lost on me. We are a government of the people and we did not get our public option. Did you even read the whole thing or just do a google search really fast and post a link thinking it would help your debate? Your right the people want a public or "socialized" as you put it, option.

 

[crabig]

Obamacare is bad medicine

Regardless of public opinion, Obama-care, in it's present form is unconstitutional. The federal government's job is to protect the citizenry, not to provide for it.

“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury.” – Alexander Tytler

Health care reform is simply the latest move by a certain segment of the political and elite class to exert power over the hoi polloi. If they control the health care industry, they can control what we eat, how much we exercise, whether we smoke, pretty much everything we do, all in the name of reducing the burden on the public health care system.

Medicare is being touted as the model for Healthcare reform. What a joke! Medicare is 45 years old, 10 times the estimated annual cost, and so infected with fraud and waste, that it will be broke by the end of the decade (2018, IIRC).

The fed has not even tried any legitimate cost cutting measures to reduce the amount that the public has to pay to obtain quality health care, they're just trying to take it over (public option). What's the friggin' rush? There are many things that can be tried that will lower the cost, without creating a new bureaucracy.

Tort reform (Get rid of multi million dollar "pain and suffering awards". The only ones who win from that, are the lawyers)
Allow purchase of insurance across state lines
Get rid of mandates for what insurance has to cover. - If I'm a 25 year old male, or a 60 year old female, why do I want to buy a policy that covers pre-natal care? Because the state says ALL insurance policies must cover that.
Give small businesses and individuals the same tax advantages for insurance that large corporations get - I pay $500 a month for insurance, but I'm not allowed to write it off as a deduction, because I'm a sole proprieter.
Allow groups and associations to purchase group policies for their members, not just employers. How great a rate could we get if all the members of Technibble, USA could negotiate with an insurance company for a group plan?

None of these ideas would cost taxpayers a dime, and they would significantly reduce health care costs in the US. But, they would not allow for the power hungry in DC to gain any more control over us.

Just my .02

 

[rusty.nells]

Here's what we Americans might expect.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ife-saving-drugs-NHS-rationing-body-NICE.html

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2006/may/06050904.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gives-birth-just-days-22-week-care-limit.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692973435303415.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...e-may-be-denied-priority-nhs-care-429844.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-teeth-12-NHS-dentists-refuse-treat-her.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...shes-old-5-000-life-saving-heart-surgery.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2007/jun/08/health.politics

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Patient-39removed39-from-waiting-list.3733871.jp

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...mned-death-NHS-withdraws-expensive-drugs.html

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

@AMT if you read the entire webpage you will find that the people WANTED the more "socialized" public option. Acording to that site. Your link actually works against your main initial point. Correct! They actually did not want the Liberman modified bill they WANTED THE PUBLIC OPTION!

So how this actually helps YOU!, and your entire argument is lost on me. We are a government of the people and we did not get our public option. Did you even read the whole thing or just do a google search really fast and post a link thinking it would help your debate? Your right the people want a public or "socialized" as you put it, option.

I figured you would say something like that. But obviously you totally missed the point of the link. I'll maybe try to explain it when you are mature enough to listen...Just read the last paragraph and that summarizes everything. It's not that the American health care system doesn't need work, but this bill is not the answer.