Gun control / Anti gun control

I think you would want to consider, not the size of country, but population density. The US is among the least crowded nations in the world (114th), tied with Venezuela. Monaco is #1, effectively being a city-state. Monaco has cultural diversity. There should be shootings happening there constantly. There aren't.
Japan is #27 and the UK, is #37, incidentally. Nobody can deny that the UK doesn't have its fair share of mixture of cultures and they're a lot more crowded than the US.

You didn't get what I meant by size....there's soooo much more to consider when talking size and factoring in how the US is populated, amount of population, differing regions of density when it comes to population, comparing % of total population to % population living in urban areas (cities) socio/economic strata, cultures, classes of people..upper class areas, lower class areas, etc.
 
First of all there is no need for name calling, if you can't handle someone who doesn't agree with you then you get off the damn topic.

If you read my post before you got all hot and bothered I suggested that all guns but hunting rifles should be banned. This guy used an assault rifle, explain to me the need to have one please? I would really like to hear the opinion of such an Einstein.

The guns were obtained legally, that's the damn point! If people couldn't obtain them legally then there would be less on the street. Where do you think the guns come from that criminals use? They obtain guns from people who got them legally, whether they are stolen or sold it still means legal guns provide more availability to the people that should not have them.

If You can't see past the end of your nose that's not my problem. Something like I suggested takes time, everyone these days wants a quick fix to a problem. Over time they would be harder for a person to get illegally, think about it.

Now as far as obtaining a gun legally there should be stricter laws, yes I said it "Stricter". I think it should go as far as a physiological evaluation, and you should also have to give out information as to who you live with and if they could be a threat or have mental issues. Right now all you need to do to get a gun is not have a violent felony!

I thought this was a mature forum not a teenage chat room, check your issues at the door please.


I apologize if I offended you or name-calling, but you have no idea how angry the anti-gun crowd makes us gun-rights activists... Please understand, we aren't the ones committing these crimes!

There is nothing wrong with hunting, true! However, what is wrong with us owning guns for other legal purposes such as target practice and most importantly self-defense?

It IS clear what the Second Amendment has to say about this: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."


If you read my post before you got all hot and bothered I suggested that all guns but hunting rifles should be banned.
That is just it. I did read your post! What exactly gives you the right to decide what weapons we can and cannot have? Who exactly are you to tell me I cannot have my handguns or sporting rifle (i.e. AR-15)? What gives ANYONE the right to deny me the right to protect myself and my family and friends with weapons of my choosing?


Last week it was reported the shooter used an assault rifle then it was reported he used hand guns only and that the assault rifle was left in his car. Now the story is back to he used an assault rifle.

The term "assault" rifle itself is a misnomer.

The guns were obtained legally, that's the damn point!
The guns were NOT obtained legally. He stole them from his mother and shot her, too. You may think gun rights activists armed this guy, legally. We didn't! He was a criminal and illegally obtained arms.

This guy used an assault rifle, explain to me the need to have one please? I would really like to hear the opinion of such an Einstein.

The real threat is the fact that our own government is armed to the teeth. The 2nd Amendment does not only regard one’s personal self-defense, but it speaks to the broader ability of the people to keep a potentially oppressive, out-of-control government and its standing army in check. Simply put citizens need to have such weapons because as Thomas Jefferson said, "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." We don't even need to use the guns... There mere possession scares the crap out of our leaders who want to take them away because they know that deep down inside their corrupt sh*t stinks, and it makes them afraid to carry out things like Agenda 21 (One-World Government). There is no freedom where people are not allowed to keep posses arms.


If people couldn't obtain them legally then there would be less on the street. Where do you think the guns come from that criminals use?

True, but EVERY gun on the street would therefore be illegal. I wouldn't want to live in a world where only the police and criminals have guns. Guns would scare the cottage cheese and non-dairy creamer out of me in a world like that! the guns that criminals use come from crime; since, by very definition they are not legal guns.


I think it should go as far as a physiological evaluation, and you should also have to give out information as to who you live with and if they could be a threat or have mental issues. Right now all you need to do to get a gun is not have a violent felony!

Right, and exactly who do you think should do this physiological evaluation?
Right now to buy a gun you need (legally):
1. To go to a Federal Licensed Firearms Dealer.
2. Fill out a form 4473 and provide valid Identification
3. Have a background check that ensures you have NO crimes of domestic abuse, violence, or any felonies of any kind whatsoever. It also checks that you have never been admitted to any mental institutions (against your will i.e. court order).

Why should they check the other members of your household? It IS the gun owner's responsibility to secure his or her guns!


Think that's bad? Anti-Gun Activists are calling for the shooting of NRA members. That's right! Where is the irony in that?

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I dont know all the ins and outs of American gun laws so I wont be able to contribute this this thread in the ways the others can, but one thing I can say is the way the US goes about publicizing these shootings. The American media go about it completely the wrong way.

Of course the media needs to cover an event like this, but they tend to make the shooter famous. We know the names of these people and we know what they look like. It makes shooting up a school more appealing. Obviously these shooters are already really disturbed and are probably at the point of committing suicide. But why not go down famous and shooting?

In Australia back in 1996 we had a shooter kill 35, injure 21 with an AR-15 and a L1A1. Of course the media covered the shooting, but they rarely said the name of the shooter. They just referred to them as "the shooter" which denied him of his "fame".

I would like to see the American media do more of this.


I totally agree. The Mass Media is doing things like tallying how many victims there were, that this one is the worst, etc... Even comparing this shooting against other shootings as if it is a video game score card giving publicity to the shooter. Naturally, there are going to be copycats who are going to try to "one up" this shooting simply because the media is going about it the wrong way.
 
I really do appreciate the time you put into this post NETWizz and thanks for clearing up the name calling. Anyway, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I also agree with this:

Originally Posted by Bryce W
I dont know all the ins and outs of American gun laws so I wont be able to contribute this this thread in the ways the others can, but one thing I can say is the way the US goes about publicizing these shootings. The American media go about it completely the wrong way.

Of course the media needs to cover an event like this, but they tend to make the shooter famous. We know the names of these people and we know what they look like. It makes shooting up a school more appealing. Obviously these shooters are already really disturbed and are probably at the point of committing suicide. But why not go down famous and shooting?

In Australia back in 1996 we had a shooter kill 35, injure 21 with an AR-15 and a L1A1. Of course the media covered the shooting, but they rarely said the name of the shooter. They just referred to them as "the shooter" which denied him of his "fame".

I would like to see the American media do more of this.

But on the one point, I do believe gun owners should secure their guns and I think most gun owners do.
 
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This I agree with. It's ridiculous that I can carry my loaded Walther on my hip in Missouri, but, before I cross the Illinois state line, I have to unload it, break it down, and stow it in a locked box in the back of my car.

Exactly. Your Carry Permit should work in ALL 50 States, and they should ALL have the same criteria to pass/fail... They should work as a driver's licence. ALL States should become "Shall Issue," so someone in Georgia doesn't have more rights than someone in California.
 
I really do appreciate the time you put into this post NETWizz and thanks for clearing up the name calling. Anyway, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this issue.

We do agree on Bryce's post though!

But on the one point, I do believe gun owners should secure their guns and I think most gun owners do.

It IS their responsibility to secure their guns. Obviously this kid's mother didn't do her responsibility. For people like me without children, securing my weapon means on the nightstand or the floor next to the bed.:D

Not under the pillow because I may take it apart and not put it back togehter properly if I have war dreams. :D
 
The real threat is the fact that our own government is armed to the teeth. The 2nd Amendment does not only regard one’s personal self-defense, but it speaks to the broader ability of the people to keep a potentially oppressive, out-of-control government and its standing army in check. Simply put citizens need to have such weapons because as Thomas Jefferson said, "When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." We don't even need to use the guns... There mere possession scares the crap out of our leaders who want to take them away because they know that deep down inside their corrupt sh*t stinks, and it makes them afraid to carry out things like Agenda 21 (One-World Government). There is no freedom where people are not allowed to keep posses arms.

Do you really believe that the government is concerned about a bunch of guys in surplus store bought camo armed with SKSs and AKs? I'm pretty confident the standing army of the United States wouldn't have to mobilize in full force to thwart the mighty militia movement. Realistically, I think we're beyond the day and age where, even if justifiable, the citizenry could truly overthrow a corrupt government.
 
D...snipped... Realistically, I think we're beyond the day and age where, even if justifiable, the citizenry could truly overthrow a corrupt government.

There may be a few North Africans / Middle Easterners disagreeing with you lately.
 
Realistically, I think we're beyond the day and age where, even if justifiable, the citizenry could truly overthrow a corrupt government.

Precisely. It's hilarious to think a civilian weapons collections would result in even a hiccup from a real government military action.

There may be a few North Africans / Middle Easterners disagreeing with you lately.

Yeah, um...we're not in Africa or the Middle East. We are in the United States, and we have the largest and highest funded military in the world...it's a truly laughable assertion that anything you have would do a damn thing. I mean, really. :rolleyes:

...you have no idea how angry the anti-gun crowd makes us gun-rights activists...

Yes, and the fact that the people here with all the guns appear to have the greatest struggle with tempers...it's not exactly enhancing your cause.
 
Precisely. It's hilarious to think a civilian weapons collections would result in even a hiccup from a real government military action.

Yeah, um...we're not in Africa or the Middle East. We are in the United States, and we have the largest and highest funded military in the world...it's a truly laughable assertion that anything you have would do a damn thing. I mean, really. :rolleyes:

Yes, and the fact that the people here with all the guns appear to have the greatest struggle with tempers...it's not exactly enhancing your cause.

By and large the tide of history contradicts your view. I suspect there have been very few rebellions/revolutions that BEGAN with the uprising being more militarily powerful than the regime being confronted. Have there been any? The people in power always begin with more guns and soldiers.

Effective defense against tyranny doesn't require a citizenry with such overwhelming firepower that they can face down the entire military force possessed by such a government. It only requires that needed to make a military act by a government against it's own citizens so distasteful as to be unthinkable.

And since the unthinkable sometimes becomes reality, as in Syria today, the willingness and ability of citizens to make a defense against an unjust government even in the face of overwhelming odds must be preserved.
 
Do you really believe that the government is concerned about a bunch of guys in surplus store bought camo armed with SKSs and AKs? I'm pretty confident the standing army of the United States wouldn't have to mobilize in full force to thwart the mighty militia movement. Realistically, I think we're beyond the day and age where, even if justifiable, the citizenry could truly overthrow a corrupt government.


It isn't an individual they are worried about. They fear mass riots like in grease with ALL the rioters armed. You have seen how many times demonstrators and protesters get hit with fire hoses, pepper spray, bean bags, and rubber bullets. Well, Government fears that one day those protesters are going to bring real weapons... and they know the day they do the police are going to back down and at the very least have to re-group and go get their tanks, fully auto guns, etc... and at that point many would simply decide they aren't paid enough/not my job. Does that mean one person or one group even stands a remote chance in succeeding? Heck no, but just having deadly force and outnumbering them scares them (government)... because they ultimately know they govern by the people by consent of the people.


Yes, and the fact that the people here with all the guns appear to have the greatest struggle with tempers...it's not exactly enhancing your cause.

Tempers? Just ****** people like me off with the left-wing libtardism (not saying you)... people who think they should control everything. i.e. Same kind of similar thinking lead to outlawing the buying or selling of sodas >16 oz in New York. Yeah, that's right! Some liberal prick has his grasp so far up your asses business you can't even decide what size soda to have if you live somewhere like New York! "Oh, but why should anybody need a soda that is larger than that?" they ask... "because they f**king want a bigger one. That's reason enough!"

Also, we gun rights people aren't the ones threatening to kill anyone at all. Only the anti-gun people are threatening to kill... the NRA president. We are merely under attack here by the anti-gun crowd who want to take away our guns and make us all defenseless sheep... Even if they have to kill us to achieve their goals. We simply don't want other people deciding what is best for us. If you personally will allow yourself to be hearded up and sent by bus to FEMA re-education camps (concentration camps), that is your decision/your business... I wouldn't stop you, but don't decide it for the rest of us!


What if an anti-pollution crowd lobbied to outlaw your gasoline powered automobiles and have them confiscated depriving you of transportation... but then they say, "It's okay... Eco friendly Golf Carts and Bicycles are still allowed." <=Would you sit idle by and let yourself be deprived of the basic right to transportation? If no, then don't try to deprive us of the basic right of self defense.
 
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Boy I have to say, I had my doubts, but the ideas put forth in this thread have completely changed my views on the subject of gun control. Thank you for such an edifying conversation!

Maybe we should try to change people's political and religious views next.
 
Personally I think Robert Heinlein had it right - "An armed society is a polite society"

I'm not here to change anyone's views or tell them what they can and cannot decide for themselves. I only wish the anti-gunners took the same approach.

For all of the inflamed rhetoric and dubious statistics the fact remains that the 2nd Amendment was put in place "precisely" to protect the citizenry against any form of tyrannical government.

I believe the pro gun crowd gets frustrated by the naivety of the opposition but even given that - they would fight and die for their opponents right to disagree - they just want the same in return.

Will my AR compete with a fully auto M4 or M16? Probably not but then I would never make a direct assault on a position in which I was outgunned. Custer taught us better than that.

You think the full military power of the government would prevail in a true toe-to-toe conflict?

Consider - there are a bit less than 3 million active duty and reservists currently.

There are more than 80 million gun owners.

If any of the recent conflicts from WW2 on are a measure the military (assuming full strength) would inflict at MOST a 13 to 1 loss ratio (barring use of WMD's). That would leave them short by about 41 million. I would also take into account the active and reserve number would shrink considerably if anything truly did happen - after all they swear to defend the constitution not the government itself.

So yea gun ownership is a deterrent to the government.
 
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I think what you need to ask yourself is when the next Adam Lanza walks into a school, do youwant teachers to have to defend your child using only those rounded scissors?

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