Wikipedia supports piracy

[gazza]

Record companies made absolute killings prior to the internet, look at branson and virgin records, our much margin were they making pre internet?

Here in Australia retail outlets have had to change there business models in order to stay competitive with Internet sellers, they have had to lower their walk-in prices, but they also want the buyer to pay a online tax on purchases over $1000, get stuffed. If it wasn't for the Internet retailers would be still taking consumers for a ride, thank god for the Internet. Why is it alright for business to rape and pillage the consumer yet when the shoe is on the other foot it is not so good.

As I said companies don't give a **** about piracy, it is the reduction in there bottom line, money, surely the big shots that get millions every year for running these companies can come up with something, then again maybe there just to busy feeding themselves.

 

[RegEdit]

Record companies made absolute killings prior to the internet

....and then profit margins leveled off around the time of Napster. Exactly! Thank you for making my point that piracy hurts sales.

And piracy does not discriminate. It bites into independent labels too. Everyone.

 

[14049752]

RegEdit, kindly ignore Gazza's argument... It's not sound. The record companies making a killing before the internet is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the protests of SOPA/PIPA. Nor does it do anything to build a case for piracy being 'ok'. Even if record companies were "raping and pillaging the consumer", pirating their product doesn't make it right (ie, two wrongs do not make a right).


RegEdit, your argument of "Wikipedia supports piracy" is invalid, too. You can be against SOPA/PIPA and also against piracy. It's about the way the bill intends to combat piracy, and the dangers of abuse because its apparent lack of understanding in what the internet is.

You used the idea of a shop owner locking their doors because of risk of theft at night. Let me take it a step further for you. SOPA/PIPA (for the case of this analogy) would allow that shop owner to have anyone punished simply by accusing them of theft. The accused would have no due process and would immediately be punished. The locks in place are a reasonable means of protection. Someone that still wants to steal from you absolutely will...there's probably no way to prevent that 100%....but the locks/alarms/cameras prevent most. Punishing, without due process, those that you simply accuse circumvents the law.....and that is the primary problem with the bills.

 

[dk564]

We FREE americans are going to wind up like china if we keep it up.

TO the US congress- like we say with a windows reinstall- Nuke N' Pave.

 

[RegEdit]

The accused would have no due process and would immediately be punished. The locks in place are a reasonable means of protection.

The problem with the current state of Internet piracy is that due process does not work. I don't have time to wait 6 months to take someone to court if someone posts a torrent on PirateBay. Due process is a joke in the high speed world of file sharing.

Really I'd be happy if the government blocked the IP of PirateBay, Demonoid and a few others. That would make a huge dent in piracy. It's hard to believe that so much time has gone by and nothing has been done to stop PB.

 

[14049752]

The problem with the state of Internet piracy now is that due process does not work. I don't have time to wait 6 months to take someone to court if someone posts a torrent on PirateBay. Due process is a joke in the high speed world of file sharing.

Really I'd be happy if the government blocked the IP of PirateBay, Demonoid and a few others. That would make a huge dent in piracy.

I didn't say that our current system was perfect. My point is that SOPA/PIPA are terribly flawed.

Nor do I think it's the government's job to regulate a means to stop IP theft. Prosecute and punish criminals, yes... But it's up to the one publishing their content to come up with a means to ensure profits. I'm sorry that that's a daunting task, but that's the reality of the situation.

 

[Tekko]

The problem with the current state of Internet piracy is that due process does not work. I don't have time to wait 6 months to take someone to court if someone posts a torrent on PirateBay. Due process is a joke in the high speed world of file sharing.

Really I'd be happy if the government blocked the IP of PirateBay, Demonoid and a few others. That would make a huge dent in piracy. It's hard to believe that so much time has gone by and nothing has been done to stop PB.

It's simply not our governments Job to secure YOUR intellectual property, that's your job. Don't create a digital copy if you cannot secure a digital copy, period.

Is it the governments job to prosecute IP thieves? Yes
Are there laws against stealing IP? Yes
Is it the governments job to secure and protect YOUR Intellectual Property? No

Simple as that.

 

[jbartlett323]

Read the prior post. Someone made the false assertion that the film industry and the music industry has been essentially making money hand over fist and therefore it's OK to steal from them.
It's well documented that piracy has forced the record industry to change their business model. Instead of depending on revenue from album sales (whether physical CD's or digital albums) record companies now focus on making money off of touring. They have completely changed their contracts and requirements of bands to make allowances for declining album profits. You can't rewrite history in one forum post. The decline in total album sales began right around the time of Napster, not in 2008.

Putting aside discussion about profits, why shouldn't content owners be able to control unauthorized duplication of their own media? Do they NOT have that right because downloaders want to start a debate about the cause of loss of profits? To debate the cause of lost profits is a red herring.

Ok, First and formost i would like to start with an old addage that i was taught as a child and everyone has known since literally the dawn of time: Artists Starve! Plain and simple, the Average artist will not make money till he/she is dead, if then. The few get some recognition early, but the majority has the same problems now they had then, and it aint piracy!
That being said, the fact that all the numbers i have read from multiple sources say that the Movie Industry has made record profits in a failing economy must not be true! here's one source about WB, google can show you more of course:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...port-grassroots-campaign-e-parasite-act.shtml
Now thats a bad economy, so surely in a good economy more people will have more money to pira..... uh wait, Buy more stuff, right? So wait, that means the Movie industry stands to make even bigger profits!? however could that be!? They are all going broke from all the damned pirates!!!
Ok, so now that point is out there how about this one: The numbers are a lie!! here's a good link:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...tm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss
Be sure to read the whole thing now, and the source article here:
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/how-copyright-industries-con-congress/
Oh and check out the MPAA blog post that started all that, if you can call that anything but an attack for exposing the truth, well......
Now that you have some reading to do (and you might check out Ars Technica's main page for even more info) lets get back to the point:
SOPA is not about Piracy. Yes thats what it is being aimed at so the Sheeple will not look to close at the rest. It is aimed at any and all content that has ever been infringed. Yes that includes that picture that you downloaded from that random website that you are currently using for a background. It was most likely infringed upon, and you are most definatly infringing. So let take that image and put it on you ImageShack account so you can post it on TechNibble. Good job getting Bryce shut down, because it was infringed upon and posted on the internet...

The problem with the current state of Internet piracy is that due process does not work. I don't have time to wait 6 months to take someone to court if someone posts a torrent on PirateBay. Due process is a joke in the high speed world of file sharing.

Really I'd be happy if the government blocked the IP of PirateBay, Demonoid and a few others. That would make a huge dent in piracy. It's hard to believe that so much time has gone by and nothing has been done to stop PB.

See this is exactly the problem with SOPA/PIPA. THEY DONT UNDERSTAND HOW DNS/INTERNETZ WORKS!! They cant just block a DNS entry. yes they can block an IP address or even a whole IP Range, and i'm just gonna use a Proxy service so i can get where i want to go. How does that do any good at all??
Oh and you dont like current Due Process huh? Well i agree it takes for ever. So lets say your personal website was infringing somehow (i dont care how cause I'M the Industry). I say take it down now, and you must comply. I tell PayPal not to pay you, and they must comply. I tell your ad network not to pay you, and they must comply. Now take me to court, if you dare. that same Due Process time later, and you havent been paid. And you have to pay legal fees. Oh yeah, and you lose, cause i have a Team of highly paid attorneys to your 1 budget attorney (and I'm the industry).

I think you really, really need to take some time to study these bills and really understand what they are trying to do. They will not hinder piracy, and they will be abused, have no doubt. History has taught us that time and time again. If you think it won't, then you my friend are very naive.

 

[hondablaster]

....and then profit margins leveled off around the time of Napster. Exactly! Thank you for making my point that piracy hurts sales.

And piracy does not discriminate. It bites into independent labels too. Everyone.

If you're trying to sell everyone on piracy being bad nobody is debating that. But this law is not the way and in 5 years the U.S. goverment will expand that law into its own uses. They can really care less about your itellectual property.

 

[tempusfugit]

The problem with the current state of Internet piracy is that due process does not work. I don't have time to wait 6 months to take someone to court if someone posts a torrent on PirateBay. Due process is a joke in the high speed world of file sharing.

Really I'd be happy if the government blocked the IP of PirateBay, Demonoid and a few others. That would make a huge dent in piracy. It's hard to believe that so much time has gone by and nothing has been done to stop PB.

Malpractice suits takes a long time too, I think we should just decide in favor of the plantiff every time. Actually, all court cases take a long time, we should just get rid of due process and the legal system all together.. If someone says someone committed a crime, off with their head. No trials.. Think of the money we'd save!! Actually lets get rid of police too, if you think someone broke in to your shop, just shoot them!

There's a reason we have due process, and if you think the big record labels and movie producers will police themselves and make sure they aren't falsely accusing anyone, you're dead wrong.

edit: and I AM debating piracy not being bad, but lets stick to SOPA/PIPA for now.

 

[RegEdit]

It's simply not our governments Job to secure YOUR intellectual property, that's your job. Don't create a digital copy if you cannot secure a digital copy, period.

You can't protect a digital copy of audio. The most recent protection system, ProtectDisc has a very expensive process that hackers have yet to crack, but in the end if you can play it through a speaker then you can copy it.
It IS the governments job to control people because without laws and police the world would be a wild wild west. Now we're getting into a very elementary debate.

There's a reason we have due process

Again, due process is a joke when it comes to fighting a torrent. Just doesn't work. And how much evidence does it take for you to agree to block PirateBay?

 

[14049752]

It IS the governments job to control people because without laws and police the world would be a wild wild west. Now we're getting into a very elementary debate.

Right, but it's not the job of the government to ensure your profitability by protecting your IP. If you believe that the case, then how is my physical property any different? It's my responsibility to protect my physical merchandise...I don't rely on the government to come over to install alarms, lock my doors, install cameras, etc to make sure that nobody's going to steal from me. It's an elementary debate because this is the underlying problems with the SOPA/PIPA bills.

 

[emsbronco]

It IS the governments job to control people because without laws and police the world would be a wild wild west.

No, unless you live in communist China, Government's job is not to control people. Government's job is to ensure a common defence, mediate commerce disputes through the justice system, and ensure the rights of the people are preserved.

Here's the reason why SOPA/PIPA is wrong...from the US Constituion, 5th Amendment:

nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law

SOPA/PIPA will do just this. The proposed bill allows websites (aka property) to be taken down immediately upon any complaint (aka without due process of law).

 

[red12049]

Well why don't do go a step further an make one? You appear to be doubting that people stealing IP hurts the originator of that IP. It either does or it doesn't. What do you think?

I think it's bound to personally and the evidence provided by industry groups representing music and video etc appear to support that view.

I can also see that stopping it might well be impossible, that the producers will need to embrace new ways of extracting cash and charge less and so on. It may be that they can end up selling more units for less in the end. I don't know. I can't see the future. But right now bands are earning less and are having to do more big stadium gigs and tours to make the money they used to.

Opinion: Piracy has *some* effect on profit. How much effect is very open to debate. Do you really believe the BSA figures on software piracy costs? Even some software industry leaders have cast doubt on those figures.

As to bands, many of us have to make do with earning less. Maybe the record companies could decrease their cut if they feel so terrible about that.

Going a ways back, buggy makers tried to have ludicrous laws passed to regulate early automobiles, to restrict their progress in the market. Didn't work, and neither will this. The entertainment industry will simply have to find a new distribution model.

Please don't expect me to cry, wail and feel sorry for the industry that tries to protect an outmoded business model by pushing bad law.

/rant

Rick

 

[red12049]

You can't protect a digital copy of audio. The most recent protection system, ProtectDisc has a very expensive process that hackers have yet to crack, but in the end if you can play it through a speaker then you can copy it.
It IS the governments job to control people because without laws and police the world would be a wild wild west. Now we're getting into a very elementary debate.

Again, due process is a joke when it comes to fighting a torrent. Just doesn't work. And how much evidence does it take for you to agree to block PirateBay?

Here's a thought for you Reg, if you feel that IP is so important that we must suspend due process to protect it...

SOPA is now in effect. Secure in the knowledge that your IP is now protected, you're working away on whatever, until I come along and file an IP theft accusation against you. You website is shut down, and you are out of business for however long it takes to get that ban lifted.

During that shutdown, I heavily advertise and release my software, which is in direct competition with yours. Because you are shut down, my software takes the market, forever ruining whatever chance your software had.

Sure, you'll get that ban lifted eventually, but what will you and your business do in the interim?

At least, your IP was protected.

Due process is VERY important.

Rick

 

[RegEdit]

I come along and file an IP theft accusation against you. You website is shut down, and you are out of business for however long it takes to get that ban lifted.

This is hysteria. The sky is not going to fall. The government is going to block the blatant offenders like PirateBay. They're not going to shut everything down.
For all of the injustice that's been going on with PirateBay for so many years I'd be nice to see some reverse-injustice. Shut them down without "due process". Eventually the courts will find a middle ground, but for now I'd like to see some of these sites shut down over night.
You guys obviously have no intellectual property to protect. Maybe if you experienced seeing someone sabotage your hard work and money by posting an illegal torrent you'd feel a lot differently.

 

[red12049]

This is hysteria. The sky is not going to fall. The government is going to block the blatant offenders like PirateBay. They're not going to shut everything down.
For all of the injustice that's been going on with PirateBay for so many years I'd be nice to see some reverse-injustice. Shut them down without "due process". Eventually the courts will find a middle ground, but for now I'd like to see some of these sites shut down over night.

And you know this how? And you know what folks might do in the future with this new found power how?

Something you should always remember:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out --
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me. Martin Niemöller



Rick

 

[tempusfugit]

This is hysteria. The sky is not going to fall. The government is going to block the blatant offenders like PirateBay. They're not going to shut everything down.

without due process, how do you know?

Also this gives corporations the power to shut someone down, not just the government. Companies have already said they would target eBay with this, so again, why are you so sure?

 

[RegEdit]

And you know this how? And you know what folks might do in the future with this new found power how?

How? You hear this all the time. For example, following 911, new search policies at the airport brought out the hysterical "my rights are being violated" crowd.

 

[red12049]

How? You hear this all the time. For example, following 911, new search policies at the airport brought out the hysterical "my rights are being violated" crowd.

And they are still protesting. Some would say rightfully so. Why would you call them "hysterical" for exercising their right of free speech? Has anyone called *you* that for doing exactly the same thing right here?

But you still haven't answered my questions. How do YOU know what the government plans to do if this law is passed as proposed? And how could you possibly know what future governments might do with this law?

Did you ever think you would hear of an American citizen executed by his government without a trial? See Anwar al-Awlaki. Whatever you might think of his actions, he was still an American citizen. Our government, and some of ou corporations are not as pure as you seem to think. That last sentence was written by a veteran who went to a war zone to fight for this government.

Rick