WiFi in new very large house

scottay

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Hi all,

I've been tasked with installing wireless into a new, very large house. I think it's pushing 11,000+ sqft with a 4000 sqft separate garage/workshop. It's all single story, with the exception of a small built out basement for a gym and guest bedroom. There is access to the entire house in the "basement" but it's not all finished.

The owner is involved with Cisco somehow, and he prefers Cisco equipment if possible. My initial thoughts on equipment:
-- SG200 PoE switch.
-- RV320 router.
-- WAP321, WAP371 or WAP561 APs.

I'm fairly set on the switch and the router unless someone has some persuasive argument against them. I use both a lot and am very familiar with them. The APs are a different story... I like the 321's and have used quite a few of them. The 371 would give them AC capabilities, but I don't like being locked into 5GHz only. I'm leaning toward the 561 because they're simultaneous dual band so if they ever come across a 2.4GHz only device they won't be out of luck. Also, since it's simultaneous, a 2.5GHz device won't drag down the entire network. I've also contemplated UniFi APs. I've used them and like them as well; however, they're not 802.11af, they run on their own PoE technology, so I'd be forced to use their switch, which I don't want to do.

The owner would prefer not having these mounted in plain sight. My initial thought on placement was to mount them to the rafters above the ceilings so they're up high and get the best coverage; however, it dawned on me that the attic will get extremely hot in the summer, as well as cold in the winter. They have an operating temp range of 32-104, so that won't fly. Next, I thought maybe throwing them in the basement, but building materials will definitely get in my way. The floors are going to be riddled with granite, tile, hard wood, etc, plus the floorboards are thicker than normal. That's a no go... Ok, so what am I left with?! I can put them on the ceiling in closets, the pantry, etc. I might be able to get away with one or two in a hallway where they're not as noticeable.

At this point, the house is framed and has most of the wood in place. There's no sheet rock, flooring, etc in place yet. I went up with a little Linksys wireless router just to see how the structure deals with wireless, and my initial testing was descent. I'll need to wait a bit until more of the construction is done, but the cabling guy needs to run the cables next week. I need to know how many and generally where I want them so he can get the cables in place. Last year when all this was just blueprints I estimated 2 in the separate garage and 6 in the main house. I wasn't sure if 6 was overkill or not, but I didn't know what type of building materials were going to be used and I wanted to ensure my bit covered the worst case scenario.

I've uploaded one of the blueprints that I was given with my preliminary rough locations. I've removed any personal information, and any other info that the owner would not want to be released. I have listed my preliminary dbm reading and the locations I measured them. Also, I'm not worried about the garage, it's a big, open area with 2 walls. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is my first wireless project of this size, all of my other wireless experience is mostly one or two APs in a business or small-moderate house.

Thanks!
 

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First, you can't test without the house being fully built and all appliances in. Those will all increase interference. I'll give a good example. We did a WiFi install at an office while it was being built awhile back...structure complete, desks and cubicles coming next week. Did the install, heat mapped it and all was well. Got calls of intermittent WiFi. Went back onsite. Determined that the cubicles were causing wireless signal to become weak in same areas. Had to install 3 more APs for full coverage.

Are they not pulling cables and installing wall jacks so you have to quesstimate on where the APs will go? I would have pushed for a few wall jacks in every room. Explain the added cost over the years with putting APs in the attic vs wall jacks and hiding behind furniture due to cost to replace due to location, device life span shortened due to extreme conditions, etc. Also point out that if they plan on running internet based services such as gaming, TV, Roku, whatever...it would be best to have a hardwired connection. Most APs can be hid behind furniture and status indicator lights turned off if needed for more discretion.

Secondly, if you want to use Unifi APs, if you chose the Pro model...that should support standard POE and their passive POE. I would not use the AC units just yet if you plan on using the controller as last I heard it was having issues.
 
Oh, as for the bit about how many APs, I would tell them how much you think it would take (seems you've done that already) but stipulate that if they go this route, you do not guarantee full coverage as it is impossible to tell until construction is complete and performing a heat map. I just took a quick glance at it and I think you'll need more than that...consider that most people in their homes, would like it to extend outside the house to their pool (here in hawaii) when they go to the mailbox, whatever. I'd feel more comfortable with 10+.
 
Thank you so much for the reply!

Yes, basically I'm having to estimate the positions prior to everything built. That the reason I'm so worried about it and am doing as much preliminary work as I can... The primary reason for the wireless is the home automation system he's using runs on wireless, so all of the wall switches, thermostats, etc, etc need to be connected. As such, outside coverage isn't an issue, I just need to ensure that there are no (or very minimal) dead-zones. Also, we tried to convince him to put cable and jacks in each room, but he wants everything wireless. Even the office doesn't have a jack, I'm stunned.

I didn't know the UAP-Pro had 802.11af! I just looked at the datasheet since you mentioned it, and you're right on the money. Does anyone have any comparison between the Cisco WAP561 and the UAP-Pro? Performance wise they look similar. I've used UAPs a few times before and really like them. I stopped using them because their controller software wouldn't allow me to setup various sites on my laptop, so it didn't work for me as a business; however, their new software is capable of separate sites, so I may migrate back to them. I might order one of each and do some of my own testing, but if anyone has experience with both to share I would love it.

Based on your recommendation, I think I'm going to tack on a few APs to the bid and explain why. If there was ample cable in the house I could position them easily after the construction is done and maximize each AP, but without everything in the house there's no possible way. I need to be prepared to have an AP virtually in each room depending on building materials. My initial bid was 6 in the main house, 2 in the garage. I still think the 2 in the garage will be ample, there's not much to block the signal. I may add 4 to the main house just to cover my butt.

If I find that I installed "too many" APs is there any risk of them stepping on each other and causing dropping? If I remember correctly, they'll all be on the same channel, so it's really like one big AP. If that's the case I doubt it'll be an issue. I'm sure I can adjust the power to fine tune as well. Thoughts?

Thanks again!
 
I'd probably start with 6 maybe 8 APs. With higher density like that, (many APs)...you want to turn the power down on each one. You want them on separate channels...unless you have a true roaming feature enabled on the controller (but most home grade wireless clients don't do true roaming very well so I'd go with just separate channels).

Hard to tell without a site survey as you go along and construction is done. While still under construction...now is the time to have the wiring guy pull wiring. Have him do more than you plan on using..since it's cheap and easy while still under construction. Can just leave un-used ones coiled up behind sheetrock.

I have a 3,600 sq ft 3 story home, my single AP is in my distro rack in the man cave in the basement, I have some brick walls, full signal upstairs, even good signal out in the back yard at the pool and in the pool house. I've done some large offices with 6 or < APs...start small, add as necessary. Too much will cause too much signal overlap and decrease performance and increase problems. I use Ubiquitis TouchSwitch...their own POE switch, to power multiple APs in larger setups where I don't want the POE injector dongles hanging and looking untidy.
 
I'd probably start with 6 maybe 8 APs. With higher density like that, (many APs)...you want to turn the power down on each one. You want them on separate channels...unless you have a true roaming feature enabled on the controller (but most home grade wireless clients don't do true roaming very well so I'd go with just separate channels).

Hard to tell without a site survey as you go along and construction is done. While still under construction...now is the time to have the wiring guy pull wiring. Have him do more than you plan on using..since it's cheap and easy while still under construction. Can just leave un-used ones coiled up behind sheetrock.

I have a 3,600 sq ft 3 story home, my single AP is in my distro rack in the man cave in the basement, I have some brick walls, full signal upstairs, even good signal out in the back yard at the pool and in the pool house. I've done some large offices with 6 or < APs...start small, add as necessary. Too much will cause too much signal overlap and decrease performance and increase problems. I use Ubiquitis TouchSwitch...their own POE switch, to power multiple APs in larger setups where I don't want the POE injector dongles hanging and looking untidy.
What AP do you have at home?
 
Thanks for the info.

I went up to the house today and did a little more testing. I also talked to the guy running cable and had him plan on 2 extra cable runs for the "just in case" factor. I'd rather have too much cable than not enough.

Although the owner prefers Cisco, I just sent him an email mentioning Ubiquiti. I don't know if he has any interest in wireless outside by the pool or on the deck (asked in the email), but if he does Ubiquiti is his best bet. They have a full range of APs that all work nicely together, so adding outdoor APs isn't an issue. Also, I just found out that they're going to build another structure on the property at some point, so getting wireless there without digging up landscaping would be a pain in the neck unless we use a Ubiquity (or similar) product to beam the wireless over there. All of Cisco's stuff with these capabilities are in the thousand dollar range and require a controller...

Does anyone have any experience with the WAP561 (or WAP551)? I use a lot of WAP121 and WAP321 and generally like them; however, they do get weird sometimes. Every once in a while they freak out with Apple devices, too. The UAP's that I've installed have had virtually zero issues in 2 years, the WAP's I've installed have periodic issues (not real often, but a few times a year I seem to have to go mess with them). I don't have any experience with the WAP500 series, and I've read that they're pretty solid.
 
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