Thoughts on 8.1?

[gunslinger]

Vista was barely out on the shelves before 7 was in beta and development releases. Windows 9 is nothing more than rumors at this point. Don't plan on seeing that for at least 2 years, maybe 3. As for MS starting to crack: we've been hearing news of their demise for at least 15 years now. The only thing that ever changes is which version of linux will take their place. RedHat, Ubuntu, Mint, Suse? I'm sure next week will be something else.

I'm not sure which data centers you've been in. Most of the big dogs have always preferred Unix. Now that's shifting to various custom OS's and Linux run with only bare essentials, typically a manager of some sort for running VMs. The guests can be any manner of operating system from something simple running Apache to windows server running SQL and exchange. Smaller corporate data centers, think 100> servers, run all kinds of systems varying from debian boxes to windows server. Not that data centers have anything to do with windows 8 or 8.1.

I strongly disagree with you that the correct approach is blowing it out and put 7 on it. That may be the easy answer. Customers that need 7 for some kind of compatibility issue is another thing entirely. However, the only time I have run into that is when a business owner thought it would be a good idea to run out to worst purchase and buy a bunch oh HP consumer desktops. Duh. I don't know if 8 is a failure or not. There are many reasons new machine sales are down, and I'm sure 8 is one of those reasons. However, I think it's because of a lack of proper consumer education, and not due to technical issues. I personally don't like 8, but I still use it on my laptop, our register, and one other box. Our techs' field machines are running 8. We have to know what our customers are using if we expect to be able to work on it. Denying its existence or waiting for its demise is just silly. Regardless of how you or I feel about it, it's here for at least another 2 or 3 years before it gets replaced with who knows what. And after that, we will still see machines with 8 on them, we will still see machines with Vista on them as well. So yeah; it's inevitable.

I'm sure you do just fine with pushing linux on your customers. If it's working out, then more power to you. For me; I tried pushing linux a couple of times. Complete waste of time and money. As for knowing linux: I do quite well, thank you. I like a few distros for various reasons, but I'll stick with MS for day to day desktop use. And I'll keep our highly modified Mountain Lion machine for our kiosk machine. Linux, well, we keep him in the closet still. Let him out from time to time if we're in the mood for a little self-flagellation.

15 years ago I didn't see many decent alternatives to Windows. This is no longer true. Linux Mint, Xubuntu, and OS X are all good alternatives to Windows 7 and all are much better options than Win 8. I don't push Linux on people because I don't really know enough about it to be able to support it. I have been known to push Macs though.


You keep saying its "inevitable". I disagree. The market decides whats popular and whats not. Not Microsoft, as much as they would like to push their garbage down everyones throats. Meanwhile in the real world, I see people avoiding Win 8 like the plague. I see people on Windows 7 machines staying with it because it works, is rock solid and is going to be supported for many, many years to come. I see people wanting their new Win 8 machines nuked and Win 7 installed. For the few left who want an older machine upgraded there is Linux and Win 7. For the people wanting to buy a brand new system there is the custom built desktop or Mac.


So you see, there are plenty of great alternatives to being forced into 8.

 

[angry_geek]

I guess I'm not being real clear. My points: Inevitability; Windows 8 is here. It will be here for the foreseeable future. People will buy it; they will use it. We will have to work on it. We're not even suggesting people spend another $150< to have us install win 7. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, you can put mint on a machine, or sell them a macbook. Maybe, that will work for them. It doesn't for my customers. They prefer the windows interface. I don't care for 8 either, but I still have to know it. Microsoft releases operating systems that over 90% of consumer machines run. Most of the software devs (especially LOB apps) in the world don't even bother with linux or OSX. So, for now and the foreseeable future, Microsoft will dictate what the majority of the world operates. I don't like it anymore than you, but it's a fact. Consumers and techs can whine all they/we want. It's not really going to change much. Maybe MS will throw a start button back on the interface or do something about multi-display usage, but, in the end, they're not going to do a whole lot. That's just life. I would love to see a day when we can sell Linux machines without problems that average users can actually operate and enjoy without having to jump through command line hoops. I don't see that happening anytime soon, especially with the fragmentation. And the fanboyism among Linux nuts doesn't help either. Especially when they start throwing out market share numbers that include Android devices. Hmmm, there's a thought: Notebooks and desktops running Android? I guess the chromebook comes close, however, I've only heard of a handful of those being sold. And mostly as secondary devices.

Basically, I don't see the point of wasting energy complaining about it. I don't like high gas prices and taxes, but I still have to pay them.

 

[Metanis]

PCs aren't cool anymore

I've come to the conclusion that the consumer likes the relative ease-of-use for modern tablets and smartphones. They've lost interest in the traditional PC or Laptop because they are such a nuisance to keep running properly. Neither the flavor nor the version of an OS are significant to the many millions of people who prefer simpler and more robust devices.

Business computing, of course, is another story. WinXP still survives in many businesses and I expect Win7 will outlive many of us.

This would actually be a really good time for something new and unique in the OS world.

 

[carrcomp]

Personally, I use Windows 8 and I like it.

Some of the changes coming with Windows 8.1 make me cringe though. I use the splash screen, and like that my new programs show up automatically, as an example.

I'll wind up installing it, because my customers will want it. I might hate it, I might grow to it.

But it'll be an adjustment.

 

[gunslinger]

I guess I'm not being real clear. My points: Inevitability; Windows 8 is here. It will be here for the foreseeable future. People will buy it; they will use it. We will have to work on it. We're not even suggesting people spend another $150< to have us install win 7. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, you can put mint on a machine, or sell them a macbook. Maybe, that will work for them. It doesn't for my customers. They prefer the windows interface. I don't care for 8 either, but I still have to know it. Microsoft releases operating systems that over 90% of consumer machines run. Most of the software devs (especially LOB apps) in the world don't even bother with linux or OSX. So, for now and the foreseeable future, Microsoft will dictate what the majority of the world operates. I don't like it anymore than you, but it's a fact. Consumers and techs can whine all they/we want. It's not really going to change much. Maybe MS will throw a start button back on the interface or do something about multi-display usage, but, in the end, they're not going to do a whole lot. That's just life. I would love to see a day when we can sell Linux machines without problems that average users can actually operate and enjoy without having to jump through command line hoops. I don't see that happening anytime soon, especially with the fragmentation. And the fanboyism among Linux nuts doesn't help either. Especially when they start throwing out market share numbers that include Android devices. Hmmm, there's a thought: Notebooks and desktops running Android? I guess the chromebook comes close, however, I've only heard of a handful of those being sold. And mostly as secondary devices.

Basically, I don't see the point of wasting energy complaining about it. I don't like high gas prices and taxes, but I still have to pay them.

I agree with you about the Linux problem of fanboys and fragmentation. I disagree that bitching about it doesn't help. We have to voice our opinions to Microsoft and make sure it hits them in the wallet. If we can convince enough people to stay away from Win 8 maybe it will let Microsoft know they really screwed up. Thats how its supposed to work. I think its funny as hell that you say your customers "prefer the windows interface" when there is nothing Windows about win 8 at all, any, what so ever. Linux Mint and OSX both look more like Windows than Win 8...lol

 

[nlinecomputers]

I guess I'm not being real clear. My points: Inevitability; Windows 8 is here. It will be here for the foreseeable future. People will buy it; they will use it. We will have to work on it. We're not even suggesting people spend another $150< to have us install win 7. It doesn't make a lot of sense. Sure, you can put mint on a machine, or sell them a macbook. Maybe, that will work for them. It doesn't for my customers. They prefer the windows interface. I don't care for 8 either, but I still have to know it. Microsoft releases operating systems that over 90% of consumer machines run. Most of the software devs (especially LOB apps) in the world don't even bother with linux or OSX. So, for now and the foreseeable future, Microsoft will dictate what the majority of the world operates. I don't like it anymore than you, but it's a fact. Consumers and techs can whine all they/we want. It's not really going to change much. Maybe MS will throw a start button back on the interface or do something about multi-display usage, but, in the end, they're not going to do a whole lot. That's just life. I would love to see a day when we can sell Linux machines without problems that average users can actually operate and enjoy without having to jump through command line hoops. I don't see that happening anytime soon, especially with the fragmentation. And the fanboyism among Linux nuts doesn't help either. Especially when they start throwing out market share numbers that include Android devices. Hmmm, there's a thought: Notebooks and desktops running Android? I guess the chromebook comes close, however, I've only heard of a handful of those being sold. And mostly as secondary devices.

Basically, I don't see the point of wasting energy complaining about it. I don't like high gas prices and taxes, but I still have to pay them.

Linux as a desktop client for the most part is a joke. If all you do is surf the web you can make use of it, until you want to watch Netflix. Mac can be a serious contender and I've pushed a few clients towards them. As for installing Windows 7 in place of 8. I've had to do that twice for clients that didn't go through me, ran out and purchased cheapo desktop and then couldn't get either the LOB app or a printer to work. That really isn't faulting 8 that much as EVERY new version of Windows has had issues with this kind of thing in the first year or so. Clients that come to me to provide systems will get Windows 7 systems because of that AND because most of my clients DON'T like change and will not tolerate the new Windows 8 interface. Nor do I want to steer clients to it because I don't think it will survive long term. With Windows 8 sales sucking worse then Vista it infers that Windows 8 will always be a minor marginal desktop interface. And just like most techs told end users to avoid Vista the same is happening for Windows 8. I don't advise my clients to use marginal products. There are lots of reasons for the failure of Windows 8 not all of them even related to the product itself. But it doesn't negate the fact that acceptance of it so far is minimal and I don't think it is wise to push clients towards a product that will have limited support simply because of it's lack of sales in the marketplace. I had the same opinion of Vista. In my opinion Vista on proper hardware was a very good product and after SP2 came out it is as stable as 7 is. But the perception is that Vista is an Edsel. So I told my clients to avoid it. In fact back when Vista was the latest OS many clients would ask me about it and you could tell that the question was a simple, if ridiculous, benchmark to gauge a tech. If you thought Vista was a good product then you must not be a good tech because EVERYONE knew that Vista was junk. Every one remember Windows mojave. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojave_Experiment

I'm curious did you have the same opinion of Vista as you do 8 when it was the latest OS. Where you telling clients to buy Vista or were you still selling Xp? Somehow I doubt you pushed Vista much. Few techs I know did.

 

[angry_geek]

I haven't told any clients to buy 8, nor did I tell them to buy vista. Plenty of them will do that on their own. My business clients will get new machines with 7 pro the same as they have been. I don't know exactly how many times I have to repeat myself, but I'll try once more: I don't like 8, but that doesn't mean I can afford to pretend it isn't here and going to be here for a while. I still have to know it and be proficient with it. I am not going to try to sell customers on downgrading. If they want to, fine. If it's a compatibility issue, fine. Once we've shown customers the basics of 8, they're fine with it.

 

[gunslinger]

But the perception is that Vista is an Edsel. So I told my clients to avoid it. In fact back when Vista was the latest OS many clients would ask me about it and you could tell that the question was a simple, if ridiculous, benchmark to gauge a tech. If you thought Vista was a good product then you must not be a good tech because EVERYONE knew that Vista was junk.

Vista was complete garbage and any tech worth anything at all knew it and was honest about it. Any customers that asked me about it at that time got the full story on every single problem I had ever seen with it. Funny thing was on technibble there was me and maybe one other guy who didn't just love Vista. I was bashed every day for not loving the new "fresh" OS. There was 15-20 page threads of me talking about all the issues with Vista and other so called "techs" claiming it was my fault for not knowing what I was doing...lol Now all those same techs want to jump on the "I thought Vista was bad too" bandwagon. bs! These are pretty much the same "techs" who are saying Windows 8 is so great and when 9 comes out they will be saying the thought it sucked right along with the few of us that are so vocal about it.


Wake up people! Just because its new does not make it better!

I haven't told any clients to buy 8, nor did I tell them to buy vista. Plenty of them will do that on their own. My business clients will get new machines with 7 pro the same as they have been. I don't know exactly how many times I have to repeat myself, but I'll try once more: I don't like 8, but that doesn't mean I can afford to pretend it isn't here and going to be here for a while. I still have to know it and be proficient with it. I am not going to try to sell customers on downgrading. If they want to, fine. If it's a compatibility issue, fine. Once we've shown customers the basics of 8, they're fine with it.

No one to my knowledge is buying windows eight. They my accidentally get it because they got a new computer, but they are most certainly not going out buying boxed copies of 8. Microsoft makes its numbers look better by counting every Windows license as a sale. It is not. It just means there was a computer built by a manufacturer somewhere that his windows eight installed. Not that someone actually bought that system. I've shown some customers the basics of 8 and they hate it even more then because they know there was no reason at all for this garbage.

 

[angry_geek]

I never once defended vista. As far as I'm concerned, it was an abomination. It had some good points, but . . .
8 could be much better, but it isn't near as bad as what vista was. When I say people will buy it, I mean with new machines. What most people hate about 8 is the metro interface. It's awful, no denying that. But when people get it figured out, they're generally OK with it. I'm still not selling downgrades unless the customer just really wants to or has a compatibility issue, which is somewhat rare.

 

[mr m]

I just picked up a Win 8 notebook with a cracked LCD panel. It looks like the kid threw a right cross into it out of sheer frustration.

It turns out his Mom then told me she also has a Win 8 laptop that she gave up on. "Where is the start button? Where is the X to close IE 10? What the hell is this thing?"

I told her that 8.1 is being released soon and that it will put back the start button and hopefully present Windows the way consumers expect since Win 95 introduced users to the mouse-driven GUI. If not I'll install Classic Shell or something like it.

My Dad also bought a Win 8 notebook for my Mom. They are in their upper 80's and have been computer users since their first 286. "Should I spend the extra money on a 40MB HDD as opposed to a 20MB?" We still laugh about that.

Anyway, I spent 2 freaking hours on the phone with my pops trying to set up his new rig. 2 hours and he couldn't get the mouse into the right corner and drag. I'm going to try again now. Wish me luck!

 

[Martyn]

^^^^I think this is the problem. Microsoft have dramatically changed the way you use Windows since the first release of Windows. People don't like change and sometimes change is for a good reason but not with this. If you had any version of Windows since the beginning and someone gave you a newer version with no instruction you would have been able to work with it with not much of a problem. Underneath Windows 8 is quicker no doubt but unless you're a techie who is used to using keyboard shortcuts for years there is a learning curve. I've now been involved with 16 Win 8 setups and every one bar one has hated it The one person is a new user with computers so knows no different. I had a Vista Business computer that needed a reload and the person whose computer it was couldn't wait and bought a new one. She phoned me up nearly screaming to help her out. People want to hit the ground running in most cases especially in business.

 

[gunslinger]

I just picked up a Win 8 notebook with a cracked LCD panel. It looks like the kid threw a right cross into it out of sheer frustration.

It turns out his Mom then told me she also has a Win 8 laptop that she gave up on. "Where is the start button? Where is the X to close IE 10? What the hell is this thing?"

I told her that 8.1 is being released soon and that it will put back the start button and hopefully present Windows the way consumers expect since Win 95 introduced users to the mouse-driven GUI. If not I'll install Classic Shell or something like it.

My Dad also bought a Win 8 notebook for my Mom. They are in their upper 80's and have been computer users since their first 286. "Should I spend the extra money on a 40MB HDD as opposed to a 20MB?" We still laugh about that.

Anyway, I spent 2 freaking hours on the phone with my pops trying to set up his new rig. 2 hours and he couldn't get the mouse into the right corner and drag. I'm going to try again now. Wish me luck!

Good luck with that man. You are going to need it. Even with something like classic shell Win 8 is still god awful to even look at, much less use.


As a side note I keep hearing how Win 8 is faster. This is not true. I don't care what geekbench says, Win 7 still feels much snappier.

 

[Markytempeaz]

I believe it's something that we should look forward to. Even though there are a lot of negative comments on this,we should just save them benefit of a doubt!

 

[ohio_grad_06]

Windows 8 is ok for speed. I made myself use it stock for 3 months, still hated windows 8 interface and installed classic shell. My question. We see them already wanting you to pay a subscription for office 2013, which I have no intention of doing(LibreOffice for the win), when will they want users to pay for windows as subscriptions? My hope would be that users would say no way.

 

[TECHNOWOLOGY]

Windows 8 is just frustrating in general, especially if you dont have a touch screen display.

 

[ohio_grad_06]

And you already starting to see manufacturers release Linux and android pc's. Microsoft needs to get the os set to what ppl want or try could get real competition in a few years if they push their users too far. Linux has come quite a ways, I mean look at Linux mint for example and Ubuntu. If they could figure out one main distro and support it with applications like windows does they could be a contender in the next few years.

 

[AndyM]

Until it's here, I have no thoughts....

Andy

 

[coffee]

^^^^I think this is the problem. Microsoft have dramatically changed the way you use Windows since the first release of Windows. People don't like change and sometimes change is for a good reason but not with this. If you had any version of Windows since the beginning and someone gave you a newer version with no instruction you would have been able to work with it with not much of a problem. Underneath Windows 8 is quicker no doubt but unless you're a techie who is used to using keyboard shortcuts for years there is a learning curve. I've now been involved with 16 Win 8 setups and every one bar one has hated it The one person is a new user with computers so knows no different. I had a Vista Business computer that needed a reload and the person whose computer it was couldn't wait and bought a new one. She phoned me up nearly screaming to help her out. People want to hit the ground running in most cases especially in business.

Hi Martyn,

What is interesting to me is that Gnome Development, Ubuntu, and MS all did the same thing. They dramatically changed the desktop. They all have solid user bases and good operating systems but decided to change the desktop. Anyone that has read any post about this subject from me knows exactly how I feel about it so I dont have to go there. But it just seems strange that all three of them decided to do this.

I often commented in the Ubuntu forums that change is not always a good thing. But they all seem to look at you like your a weirdo since you cant handle change.

My biggest beef with any operating system is that changes that are made are not the ones to make. For instance, Most "New versions" of operating systems seem to change the graphics - how a program, desktop works - asthetic if you will. They never fix underlying things.

I think people are quite happy with the menu system and its not something that should be changed. It works and works well. I think MS could do better with change if they just look at the 3rd party utilities as a guild.

coffee (I drank less coffee today so I would not rant )

 

[coffee]

Windows 8 is ok for speed. I made myself use it stock for 3 months, still hated windows 8 interface and installed classic shell. My question. We see them already wanting you to pay a subscription for office 2013, which I have no intention of doing(LibreOffice for the win), when will they want users to pay for windows as subscriptions? My hope would be that users would say no way.

Is that not a 'hoot'!!

So, Lets see, If I do not pay my monthly MSOffice bill then I cannot access my important spreedsheet and doc files.

I m glad I have libreoffice. Works great for anything I want to do.

coffee

 

[Peaceful]

I read somewhere the next Mac OS is going the same way, more touch screen friendly.