Server job for local business, please advise

[d3v]

Hi all, I've been an IT tech for 7 years now and am very good at anything to do with repairing computers however when it comes to anything to do with servers I feel terrified and always turn down these sorts of jobs however a long-time business customer of mine who is also a friend and is very laid back wants me to setup a server in one of his coffee shops upstairs office on which he wants to put his cash tills and also Sage.

There's no deadline for me so I can take my time and learn as I go along, and no cash outlay as I'm using an old core 2 duo tower I have spare running Windows Server 2012 Standard 64-bit.

My question is basically where do I start with this project? I honestly have no idea where to start and would appreciate links to suitable guides/articles that I can study over this weekend as I start work with the customer this Monday.

 

[jbartlett323]

Hi all, I've been an IT tech for 7 years now and am very good at anything to do with repairing computers however when it comes to anything to do with servers I feel terrified and always turn down these sorts of jobs however a long-time business customer of mine who is also a friend and is very laid back wants me to setup a server in one of his coffee shops upstairs office on which he wants to put his cash tills and also Sage.

There's no deadline for me so I can take my time and learn as I go along, and no cash outlay as I'm using an old core 2 duo tower I have spare running Windows Server 2012 Standard 64-bit.

My question is basically where do I start with this project? I honestly have no idea where to start and would appreciate links to suitable guides/articles that I can study over this weekend as I start work with the customer this Monday.

Well... First I would start with a server. That Core2Duo box is ok to learn on, but don't use it for his production, unless ya like problems...
Next, I would realize that a server is just a regular computer doing a few extra things and has horrible licensing requirements, and jump in feet first with testing.
Then I would find out exactly what he wants it to do, research,research,research, followed by test,test,test.
Then I would make sure the research and test cycles were as secure as possible, research some more, test some more.
Then finally, when you have gone through all of this, get him set up. By this time you should be fairly comfortable with what your doing! And if your not, refer to the third step above...

 

[d3v]

Hi there, the Core 2 Duo is an E7500 which is a very fast 45nm chip. It has 4gb of DDR3 high speed gaming RAM, so I would of thought this would be a very capable machine to act as a server, no?

 

[seedubya]

Hi there, the Core 2 Duo is an E7500 which is a very fast 45nm chip. It has 4gb of DDR3 high speed gaming RAM, so I would of thought this would be a very capable machine to act as a server, no?

Forget the term server for a minute and forget the OS, spec etc. etc.
Focus on what you want to achieve for your customer.

Why does he want a "Server"?
What does he\you think it's going to do for his business?
What will it "Serve"? e.g. files\apps\email\AD etc. etc.

Answer those question FIRST.

 

[Knightsman]

I would set him up with a good dell, in the range of about $1800-$2200. A T420 will probably do exactly what he needs:
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-t420/fs

Don't be scared of servers, servers by themselves are not scary.
Active Directory, virtual lans, security, can be scary until you get your feet wet and play with it.

Sage, and cash tills (assuming software) should be a piece of cake. The software itself will probably install what is needed, if not, check out installing sql server (might come installed depending on which software package you get). The most you will probably have to do, is have a shared folder if another computer (registers) communicate with that machine. Lastly, use the software support as a resource, tell them you need to get sage installed, and they typically do it for you, you watch them, so if need be, you can do It next time. If nothing else, you learn about how the programs operates by how they set it up.

Sounds like he doesn't need any of that. This will go easier than you think, trust yourself, you know what your doing.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[HankArnold]

Understand the customer's requirements first.

I agree with others that you need to better define the project's requirements before jumping into a "solution". Otherwise you have a solution looking for a requirement.

First off, it's not clear from the post that your friend needs a server, There is no mention of any connectivity requirements. Even if there are, with what sounds like a small operation, you may be able to get away with a workgroup instead of a server/client setup (or even a stand-alone PC).

The biggest mistake you can make is to let the customer dictate the solution/strategy. You need to let the customer tell you the *REQUIREMENTS* and *RESULTS* that he wants along with any limitations he may have. The you can decide on the best strategy.

You need to research sources like TechNet for documentation on how to set up a server, DNS, DHCP, etc.. Definitely test & learn how to do it. You might think about downgrading to Server 2008 R2 instead of 2012. 2012 is very new and drastically different than previous server operating systems.

Good luck.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Hi there, the Core 2 Duo is an E7500 which is a very fast 45nm chip. It has 4gb of DDR3 high speed gaming RAM, so I would of thought this would be a very capable machine to act as a server, no?

The C2D was a fairly fast desktop processor. And 4 gigs of RAM was good for Windows XP, and sorta marginally OK for Windows 7. Yes they'll run Server 2012 ...technically. But depending on what other services are running on that server (lets start with an accounting app)...it won't be a ball of fire. 4 gigs of RAM was good for Server 2003 and prior...but with Server 2008...you really want to START with 8 gigs...and go on up from there.

Servers typically have Xeon processors, which have architectures which allow them to run databases much better...and multitasking.

But now comes the real difference in servers. The rest of the hardware.
Motherboards which are designed for servers....different chipsets, more slots for expansion, higher stability with very stable drivers designed specifically for the server OS. Network cards that are server grade...designed to handle more concurrent connections..unlike desktop computers which have desktop grade network cards. Options for redundant hot swap power supplies. You can spread those across dual APC units. Options for REAL RAID controllers...hardware based, not poor performing limited in options "fake RAID" controllers of desktop computers. And most importantly....options for hot swap hard drives...namely enterprise grade hard drives...10,000rpm and 15,000rpm SAS drives. Drives with MTBF ratings of 5 years.

And don't make the mistake of going for the cheap entry level servers...those "100" series models. With HP Proliants...start with the ML350 class. With Dell, I start with the PE 420 models...and go on up from there...although for some super small clients I've used their PE 320 model.

Going with true server class hardware allows you to have a server that gives you nothing but uptime...which is what a business needs. Especially with a point of sale system. They can't afford to have downtime during business hours.

You'll also want to get comfortable with how to setup and manage a network using active directory. How to run the network from the server...DHCP, DNS, domain user accounts, and with the workstations...the different between the local user groups (which you should no longer use once you join a domain) and the domain user groups. How to set domain users in the local admin group if needed. How to deploy and manage printers from the server. How to properly back things up. How to install antivirus on a server (it's not like installing on a desktop....there are a TON of exclusions and changes t file extension types to scan to do...I see so many other techs ignore this and servers have problems when you do).

 

[Markverhyden]

To echo some of the other comments. You need to get a good handle on what the customer's expectations are. How do they expect things to play out and work? How long to they expect to keep the system?

As we all know putting together a machine based on s/w minimum specs is a recipe for disaster. Can tell you all the number of times some one has pulled out the box with specs saying that it meets the specs. They can't seem to get it in their head that minimum means it works, barely.

And look at the whole picture. What things they might think about adding in the future? What is the condition of the network? Are they running on an old 10bT hub? Old Cat3 wiring?

The system you have is fine for basic lab work scenarios but I would never put something like that out in production in this day and age. Not sure about pricing across the pond but around here a good entry level server will run you around 1500 USD. Make sure and have a conversation about how long they can live with it down as that will determine what type of service contract you get. I've had customer's stick with the standard next business day. But some can't even live with it being down an hour so they end up having a backup server system setup.

 

[d3v]

hi all many thanks for all the tips and advice.

First day was a few days ago and we basically setup the server in a nice corner of the top floor office and linked it in to the router. Setting up the active directory service and domain was a pain but through a couple hours trial error I managed to get it going, then I thought adding the other 3 PC's that are downstairs but also linked in to the same router that the server is connected to would be easy- until we realised one was running XP home, the other Windows 7 Home Premium, and the third XP Pro.

Seeing as only one of the three was capable of joining a domain I set about trying to do so however this too proved difficult and after an hour or so we called it a day and I left, advising him that I upgrade all his machines to Professional versions of Windows before we go any further, and downgrade the server to 2008 in order to work with XP (server 2012 does not support XP)

To be honest I was winging it every step of the way and can't imagine getting this sorted in any sort of prudent time frame.

Will keep the thread updated as I go on.

 

[nesrinamb]

I have to be honest with you this sounds like it went really bad. Also I recommend replacing all the win XP computers with win 7. Also go to YouTube and look at how to deploy win server. I understand your just learning but do some more research and maybe setup a virtual box testing environment

 

[Markverhyden]

hi all many thanks for all the tips and advice.

First day was a few days ago and we basically setup the server in a nice corner of the top floor office and linked it in to the router. Setting up the active directory service and domain was a pain but through a couple hours trial error I managed to get it going, then I thought adding the other 3 PC's that are downstairs but also linked in to the same router that the server is connected to would be easy- until we realised one was running XP home, the other Windows 7 Home Premium, and the third XP Pro.

Seeing as only one of the three was capable of joining a domain I set about trying to do so however this too proved difficult and after an hour or so we called it a day and I left, advising him that I upgrade all his machines to Professional versions of Windows before we go any further, and downgrade the server to 2008 in order to work with XP (server 2012 does not support XP)

To be honest I was winging it every step of the way and can't imagine getting this sorted in any sort of prudent time frame.

Will keep the thread updated as I go on.

With regular server it is imperative to have a spotless DNS setup and that is where most problems arise during the initial setup. That is one nice things about SBS. The magical M$ wand is waved and DNS is there and all is good in a simple environment.

You also need to move DHCP to the server and not use the router DHCP. Once that is done joining should be good to go if the clients are ok.

To be honest you should upgrade all of the clients so they are running the same pro version of OS. Leaving one on XP and the others on W7 is asking for support problems.

Best of luck!!

 

[seedubya]

Honestly, I don't know why you asked for advice in the first place. I mean, if you're not going to follow ANY of it why bother?

You've been told that your plan is inadequate\non-existent - ignored that.
You've been told that your hardware is inadequate and unsuitable - ignored that too.
But instead you decide to wing it - f**king with your "friend's" business network without a bloody clue about what you're doing and ignoring all advice to the contrary! Some friend you are. It's no wonder that this industry gets a bad name - it's foolish, unprofessional bull**** like this that brings it.

Now you have to spend more money - oh wait - you did pay for that Server 2012 licence, didn't you?

 

[nesrinamb]

Honestly, I don't know why you asked for advice in the first place. I mean, if you're not going to follow ANY of it why bother?

You've been told that your plan is inadequate\non-existent - ignored that.
You've been told that your hardware is inadequate and unsuitable - ignored that too.
But instead you decide to wing it - f**king with your "friend's" business network without a bloody clue about what you're doing and ignoring all advice to the contrary! Some friend you are. It's no wonder that this industry gets a bad name - it's foolish, unprofessional bull**** like this that brings it.

Now you have to spend more money - oh wait - you did pay for that Server 2012 licence, didn't you?

yea you pretty much said what i wanted to say but I held back.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PCAddictsLive/videos

the youtube channel has a step by step on setting everything up.

Again I understand your just learning servers but when i read your post I thought WTF! YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING.

My advice is since you don't have a real timeline set in stone is to watch the videos and set up a test environment using virtual box. Wont be the same as hands on but if you continue this rout and set up your friends business this way hes gonna be pretty upset when theirs a bunch of random issues.

Best of luck and i don't mean to come off as a d bag.

 

[Markverhyden]

yea you pretty much said what i wanted to say but I held back.

http://www.youtube.com/user/PCAddictsLive/videos

the youtube channel has a step by step on setting everything up.

Again I understand your just learning servers but when i read your post I thought WTF! YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING.

My advice is since you don't have a real timeline set in stone is to watch the videos and set up a test environment using virtual box. Wont be the same as hands on but if you continue this rout and set up your friends business this way hes gonna be pretty upset when theirs a bunch of random issues.

Best of luck and i don't mean to come off as a d bag.

I know. Finding out you have clients that don't work in a AD environment after the fact is not SOP. But maybe his friend really does not care.

 

[HankArnold]

Do you have the licenses for Pro versions?

I hope you have told the client that "upgrading to the Pro version legally will require buying licenses.

If you are paying for new license, you should consider W7 for all machines and keep the server at 2012.

Hank Arnold (Microsoft MVP)

 

[d3v]

hi guys please chill, he knows I'm learning the server side of things, isn't desperate for the thing to be up and running, and we have agreed I only get paid if everything is up and running properly, so there's no stress involved at all.

He wants me to upgrade all machines to Win 7 Pro so I'm just waiting on him to give me the go ahead on that at the moment.

In the meantime I'm reading and watching as much Server 2012 info as I can, that youtube channel has been an excellent resource, thank you for pointing it out and this is one of the reasons I started the thread in the first place!

Just one question. Do servers need to be on some sort of ISP "business package" that features a static IP or is his standard domestic ISP internet subscription ok? I think it's 30mb, but the main concern is weather or not a static IP lease is required from the ISP to run a server environment??

And please don't take my disbelief the wrong way but I am very surprised this spec of a machine won't be able to serve 3 static PC's down stairs and 2-3 remote VPN client laptops. Is a E7500 and 4GB RAM really that old/obsolete?!?!

 

[Markverhyden]

Servers only need to have a static IP if the plan is to have access to Server services from the outside. So, for example, if you want to run email or web on it you need have a static IP. Technically there are ways to get around that using dynamic DNS but you can still have issues.

Don't know about across the pond but ISP's in the US, for the most part, don't really care what OS is being run. Just what kind of traffic. Most ISP's have some language in their T&C's that residential accounts cannot run services such as web, email, etc. But I've only heard of one case where a customer had an issue and that was because of the email and DHCP address block issue. So he had to get a static.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Servers only need to have a static IP if the plan is to have access to Server services from the outside.

Servers should always have a static IP...as a servers IP is technically what's set on its LAN connection...TCP properties.

The internet connection feeding that office which the server is on, has options of being dynamic..or static.

However, a business should be on a static account with their ISP because of several reasons.
*Business grade accounts have higher SLA's...higher uptimes, faster response times, better support, and fewer..if any...limitations on traffic. Quite a few times I've seen how a non-business account with the ISP has had issues when that business tried to kick in services down the road...illustrating that the ISP does block certain types of traffic on non-biz accounts.

 

[TAPtech]

And please don't take my disbelief the wrong way but I am very surprised this spec of a machine won't be able to serve 3 static PC's down stairs and 2-3 remote VPN client laptops. Is a E7500 and 4GB RAM really that old/obsolete?!?!

For your environment it will work just fine. I still wouldn't recommend using it for two main reasons:

1) Reliability. We have all seen desktop PCs that run constant for 10 years without problems. However, that is usually not the case. They just are not built to the same quality and redundancy that server hardware is. Even with a base model Dell server that is essentially desktop stuff- Dell spends more time on drivers and selects the most stable and higher quality components for them. Gaming RAM is meant for speed and not reliability. You would be much better off with a Business class workstation for this sort of thing with components that focus on reliability and robustness vs. cheap speed.

2) Professionalism. As a computer guy, you know you can squeak by with certain things for your personal computers. Maybe you'll just make up your own Molex connector or salvage some wires to extend a 12V power lead in the case. Or you may overclock your CPU or GPU for some extra punch. You wouldn't do that on a client rig though. Same thing here. You need to keep in mind what's best for the client, and remember that your time isn't free. You shouldn't be setting him up with a rig that is $500 less, only to be called out for a $300 service call once every 2 months because the thing is unreliable.


I am not sure why there are some accusations of software piracy though, I see no evidence of that in the thread. If you are just starting out, this looks like a really good learning opportunity for you. Make sure you keep data backed up and secure at all times. Make sure you don't have really mission critical operations running off of the thing and learn as much as you can. You'll learn a lot in your lab but nothing comes close to the experiences you will get by helping out clients. They will deliver the most unique and screwed up situations for you to dig through!

 

[nesrinamb]

"And please don't take my disbelief the wrong way but I am very surprised this spec of a machine won't be able to serve 3 static PC's down stairs and 2-3 remote VPN client laptops. Is a E7500 and 4GB RAM really that old/obsolete?!?!"

Yea chances are that their wont be that many people accessing the system simultaneously but I feel the vpn connection would suck up a fair amount of processing cycles. Best of luck with everything.