Mark as Spam - Which email client(s) pass this information to which email service providers?

[britechguy]

I am becoming more and more frustrated in trying to find some single (or even a couple) resource that will indicate on an email client basis which, when you use their "mark as spam/junk" function, send that information to the email service provider AND which email service providers actually accept that information for tweaking their spam filters.

It seems, for instance, that Outlook tries to pass this information through but if it does it's clear that not nearly all email service providers accept it for filter tweaking.

The same seems to apply to "block this sender," too, and there are many reports of people repeatedly using "block sender" in Outlook yet, the next day, another message (or raft of messages) from that same sender somehow make it through without either Outlook or the email service provider blocking them.

My observation over time is that the battle against spam was, to a significant extent, being won for some years but now it seems to be going just the opposite direction. Gmail still seems to have what I consider "the gold standard" of spam filtering. I can't recall the last time I saw a real spam message make it through to my inbox, or that of my clients, nor a valid message be marked accidentally as spam.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Outlook's mark as spam does nothing but train the local Outlook. If Outlook is attached to Exchange it will train that Exchange instance. None of this intelligence is used at the service provider level as far as I know.

Also, much of that functionality is actually dependent on Exchange too. So I'm not sure you can block sender without Exchange.

 

[britechguy]

Also, much of that functionality is actually dependent on Exchange too. So I'm not sure you can block sender without Exchange.

If that is true (and, note, I'm not saying that it's not) then why in the love of heaven would Outlook not be coded such that the logic were applied, "If account is not Exchange, do not offer "block sender" function."?

This is not rocket science, and I know quite a few IMAP (mostly) and POP (far fewer) accounts that many Outlook users (at home) are using where they're furiously trying to block senders to no effect. There's no reason to believe that a local "Block Sender" function would not, at the very least, set up a filter/rule behind the scenes that says if the message is from <blocked address> then move to spam.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Perhaps it has a mechanism defined for it? IMAP doesn't have one... so this is all custom.

 

[britechguy]

Well, Thunderbird's internal "mark as junk" training seems to do what I'd expect it to do. Outlook's often doesn't. But it's not just Outlook's that doesn't.

And when you add in the feedback loops (which I've never figured out who's feeding information to whom there, either) where if a message is marked as spam from a subscription emailing list the list provider automatically unsubscribes you it gets even messier. And there are a lot of email service providers that insist, no matter how many people report that a given domain is a subscription only service, on marking messages from those types of services as spam.

You'd think a call to an email service provider telling them, for example, "Groups.io is a subscription email service. You cannot and do not get messages from @groups.io unless you have made the effort to subscribe to whatever group is sending them. Please whitelist groups.io since, by definition, a message cannot be spam if you have to actually subscribe to get it," would result in whitelisting. It doesn't.

 

[Sky-Knight]

That's because we've long since abandoned white lists and black lists and moved into active filtration. The system largely doesn't care what the user thinks, it's all keyword matching now.

 

[britechguy]

The system largely doesn't care what the user thinks,

Which is proving to be problematic.

But in that active filtration arena I've seen no one that even comes close to Google and Gmail. I haven't had a spam message make it to my inbox in years and, conversely, if a single "real" message goes to spam once every few years that's been it.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Which is proving to be problematic.

But in that active filtration arena I've seen no one that even comes close to Google and Gmail. I haven't had a spam message make it to my inbox in years and, conversely, if a single "real" message goes to spam once every few years that's been it.

And I'm the same using M365. I don't see junk mail in my inbox either. The difference between GSuite and M365 on this topic is I can configure the latter. The former is a near impassible labyrinth of stupidity.

 

[GTP]

But in that active filtration arena I've seen no one that even comes close to Google and Gmail.

I, (against my better judgement) created a disposable gmail address for myself to be used only for responding/receiving mail from people/businesses I didn't want to give my real email address to.

Within a few days I started to receive junk/spam emails. Marking them as "Junk" has no effect on stopping them.
I just checked the gmail account and there are over 370 spam/junk messages from dating sites, vitamins, e cigarettes, penis enlargement, adult entertainment, women who want to "f*** me now!" news services, etc etc.
None of it was solicited.

Besides the fact that Google scrape every message in and out, Gmail is garbage and I would never use it for anything legitimate.

 

[britechguy]

Besides the fact that Google scrape every message in and out, Gmail is garbage and I would never use it for anything legitimate.

Well, I can't explain why you (and a few [very few] other people I know) experience what amounts to zero spam filtration under Gmail and an even fewer complain that it's so aggressive that many legitimate messages get spam trapped.

I've been using Gmail for years, and my business address is a gmail address, and I stand by my report about the four Gmail addresses that are my own, two that I'm now active with as an executor, and all of the client Gmail addresses I've been dealing with. Spam filtration has been exquisitely accurate with absolutely no input.

The only thing I'm having to do is move the occasional message that gets filtered into one of the non-primary inbox tabs (e.g. Promotions) back to the primary inbox when it really should go there instead. I generally only ever have to do this once and all future messages from that sender and "of that nature" land in the inbox.

[And, by the way, I get tons of spam of the very descriptions you give. I never see it unless I go to the spam folder. e.g:]

 

[GTP]

Reporting them as spam to Google seems to have the effect of telling whoever to "send more!"

[And, by the way, I get tons of spam of the very descriptions you give. I never see it unless I go to the spam folder.]

This ^^
Why do we even receive it in the first place? If Google is so good at filtering spam them why the heck is there even a "Spam" folder? It should never be downloaded to begin with.
If I've marked it as spam and reported it as spam why is it still received?

 

[GTP]

I've been using Gmail for years, and my business address is a gmail address,

I really dont want Google knowing how, why, when, where or what I do in my business because it is MY business - not theirs.
I don't want google knowing who I send mail to or get mail from.

 

[britechguy]

If I've marked it as spam and reported it as spam why is it still received?

Because Google, and all email providers, are not psychic. You have to receive something to classify it, and that includes to classify it as spam/junk and/or delete it immediately after having done just that.

There's also the occasional misclassification (no matter what email provider we're talking about), and most people want to be able to take a quick look at their spam folders just in case.

 

[britechguy]

I really dont want Google knowing how, why, when, where or what I do in my business because it is MY business - not theirs.
I don't want google knowing who I send mail to or get mail from.

Then do exactly what you're doing - don't use them.

We each get to decide what providers of various services we will, or will not, use.

I am speaking strictly about the spam filtering capabilities of Gmail, which are disjoint from whether you want to use it yourself or not.

 

[frase]

I, (against my better judgement) created a disposable gmail address for myself to be used only for responding/receiving mail from people/businesses I didn't want to give my real email address to.

Within a few days I started to receive junk/spam emails. Marking them as "Junk" has no effect on stopping them.
I just checked the gmail account and there are over 370 spam/junk messages from dating sites, vitamins, e cigarettes, penis enlargement, adult entertainment, women who want to "f*** me now!" news services, etc etc.
None of it was solicited.

Besides the fact that Google scrape every message in and out, Gmail is garbage and I would never use it for anything legitimate.

IP hook mate, gotcha! Never use disposable email providers, they are free for a reason - the lure, your the phish.

 

[GTP]

Never use disposable email providers,

You cant use your real address/s either for the same reason. They just get harvested and used in spam campaigns.

 

[frase]

You cant use your real address/s either for the same reason. They just get harvested and used in spam campaigns.

You misunderstand the reasoning of my point. Either continue using fake addresses and have spam or don't.
So continue with your own decisions and integrity of your business and security of clients, it is up to you in the end.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Why do we even receive it in the first place? If Google is so good at filtering spam them why the heck is there even a "Spam" folder? It should never be downloaded to begin with.
If I've marked it as spam and reported it as spam why is it still received?

That’s unrealistic. Gmail while excellent at spam filtering isn’t perfect and Ive had false positives before. Not being able to go into any spam filter and manually undo a mistake isn’t acceptable.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Besides, "receive" is a misnomer in this case, the mail is going into the mailbox. The web view of the mailbox doesn't receive anything, it simply looks into the mailbox.

The data that's in that mail doesn't come to your system until you open it.

 

[britechguy]

Either continue using fake addresses and have spam

Let's face it, take the "fake" out of that sentence and it remains true.

You simply cannot have an email address in active use that will not start receiving spam, and very promptly. That's why spam filtering technology came into being to begin with, and has reached the level of sophistication that it has.

[To the tune of Love and Marriage] Spam and email, spam and email, go together like a two boards with the nail! Let me tell you, brother, you can't have one without the, other!