Little advice on running cable between buildings

['putertutor]

As the ground thaws I am looking at finishing up a project that has been on deck for some time. Going to trench and run cable to connect two buildings. Running pvc conduit the whole way, with burial grade cat5e. The run, if it were straight, would be just over 300', but as straight as we can run it we will be 350' at least, probably closer to 400'. So we will be running to an outbuilding and placing a repeater in there.

I have a couple of concerns. First, the outbuilding is not insulated or heated, so I am concerned about cold weather - it's gets below freezing here regularly over the winter. My limited experience with outdoor installs tells me this will not be an issue. Is that right?

Also looking for any suggestions about what to use for that repeater. It's just connecting a router in one building to an ap in the other. Also looking for a lockable box with internal power outlet to place it in. Any suggestions?

 

[kwisher]

IIRC, 300 meters is the maximum distance for Cat cabling. Better check before you invest any more $$$, might have to go with fiber. I would not install anything less than Cat6 for any new installations.

 

[Markverhyden]

You are on the edge but I've had runs 400'+ work just fine for "normal" use. Mind you, no massive file transfers or streaming media. By repeater I'm guessing you mean the AP. Ubiquity has outdoor rated equipment and is a favorite of many on here. As far as temperature, don't worry. First place the electrical characteristics of metal improve as the temperature drops. And anything energized probably not fail to a temperature that will cause a failure.

 

[mr m]

I think kwisher meant 100m/328' max runs. Mark is also right. I've seen a 660 foot Cat 5 cable act as a backbone for 50 users! Collisions averaged 60%+ so it limped along but I don't recommend that. The 328' max is because of the signal timing designed to allow multiple access and minimize collisions and resending of the data frames.

To do it by the book and guarantee your work 328' is the maximum for copper.

Most switches/repeaters I've seen will operate from 0-140 F. These folks make repeaters for copper in harsh and normal environments. http://www.perle.com/products/stand-alone-ethernet-extenders.shtml

I've never seen a lockable metal enclosure with power. The enclosures I've seen had knockouts on the box that I ran metal conduit to and had to install a metal outlet box internally but you can pay an electrician to do that if needed.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Why not point to point wireless bridges? Skip digging a trench and laying pipe and pulling cable.
If you do run cable, get outdoor/ground rated. Jacket is thicker. When you run pipe underground, the low spots can collect water. When it freezed..."pinching" of the cables happens and screws with the even twisting, thus screws with attenuation.

But...why not nice simple easy to deploy and inexpensive point to point wireless?

 

['putertutor]

Yeah, I know I'm close distance-wise, but there will be a fair amount of heavy usage - streaming videos, Skype, etc. - and I'd rather go by the numbers.

As far as doing wireless, that is in place now, but because of local geography (trees) and environment (angry teen boys who like to mess with things like external antennas) I want to go with buried cable.

Stonecat, are you saying to forego conduit and direct bury? I will be using gel filled burial grade cable regardless, but do you think there will be more issues with conduit than without?

 

[CompConfig]

On outside jobs we use conduit, glued at the seems and above ground and sealed at the ends. Have never had an issue but we have never had to exceed 200 feet.

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

The overall maximum distance for 10/100/1000BASE-T ethernet is 100 meters, but the maximum distance for a Permanent Link run is 90 meters (Patch Panel to Wall Jack), this allows for 5 meters of patch cords on each end. For a Channel Link run the maximum is 100 meters ( no patch panel or wall jack).

Yes you can go longer and yes it may or may not work, but if you do go longer you are almost guaranteeing that your speed will go down and any large file transfers or streaming will also have many issues.

Have you thought of not running ethernet directly and using something like Ethernet to ADSL2 adapters? With this type of option you only need a single twisted pair and the distance limit increases. Down side is most limit the network speed to 100M and you can't do POE over it.

As to the type of cable you need. Be sure you use an outdoor wet rated cable. Just because it's for outdoors doesn't mean it's rated for wet conditions and that is what you are going to have when you run in through underground conduit.

Is the powered lock box for the repeater or the AP?

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Stonecat, are you saying to forego conduit and direct bury? I will be using gel filled burial grade cable regardless, but do you think there will be more issues with conduit than without?

No...you still want conduit. Still want to hard protect the cable from various things.....abrasion from rocks from expand/contract hot/cold temp changes, teeth of mice and moles that LOVE plastic, even termites enjoy plastic. Overall stresses of frost heave.

Re: wireless and vandalism...have the APs mounted inside, in window frames.

 

['putertutor]

I like those perle extenders @mr m linked to. I could go building to building without a midpoint, but they are pricey at ~$600 for the pair I would need. If I can get the buy in for that, I think I may go that route. If not, I will run it with the midpoint switch in the outbuilding. I've not used or seen those before, are they reliable? The last thing I want is to bring this solution to the table, get the buy in, and then have to replace it in a year.

 

[kwisher]

Oooops, yes I meant 100 meters in my OP. Depending on what type/amount of data you are pushing I'd also look into a fiber run.

 

[pceinc]

Why not use fiber? You can order that much cable terminated with a pull loop built in for under $500. Couple of $80 Startech Gigabyte Media converters and you are good to go.

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

I like those perle extenders @mr m linked to. I could go building to building without a midpoint, but they are pricey at ~$600 for the pair I would need. If I can get the buy in for that, I think I may go that route. If not, I will run it with the midpoint switch in the outbuilding. I've not used or seen those before, are they reliable? The last thing I want is to bring this solution to the table, get the buy in, and then have to replace it in a year.

You should be able to find good ones for cheaper than that.

Newegg has this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...OydmgHmgnOebYyOzZI4AthoCNzTw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

Why not use fiber? You can order that much cable terminated with a pull loop built in for under $500. Couple of $80 Startech Gigabyte Media converters and you are good to go.

Fiber is also a good option, but the problem with it is how many techs have the proper cleaning tools to use it. Fiber connectors should never be plugged into any sockets unless both have been properly cleaned. Not cleaning them runs the risk of permanently damaging them and/or having the the fiber link run at a lower speed due to them being dirty.

 

[pceinc]

Fiber is also a good option, but the problem with it is how many techs have the proper cleaning tools to use it. Fiber connectors should never be plugged into any sockets unless both have been properly cleaned. Not cleaning them runs the risk of permanently damaging them and/or having the the fiber link run at a lower speed due to them being dirty.

That used to be the case. However, now that Leviton makes pre-polished field terminating connectors, anyone with half a brain can do it.
They make wipes for this purpose. As longs as you're not doing it in a dust storm, there shouldn't be any problems.
Also, if purchasing a pre-made cable, the cable will come with protective ends on the fiber connector which are removed at installation.

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

That used to be the case. However, now that Leviton makes pre-polished field terminating connectors, anyone with half a brain can do it.
They make wipes for this purpose. As longs as you're not doing it in a dust storm, there shouldn't be any problems.
Also, if purchasing a pre-made cable, the cable will come with protective ends on the fiber connector which are removed at installation.

I respectfully and completely disagree and so does the Fiber industry.

Here are some articles and papers on the subject
http://www.cablinginstall.com/artic...operly-cleaning-fiber-during-termination.html
http://www.cableorganizer.com/articles/fiber-optics-tutorial/cleaning-fiber-optics.html
http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/suppor...-digital-hierarchy-sdh/51834-cleanfiber2.html

Read the last paragraph on page 3 of this paper as it talks about dust caps
http://www.ofcconference.org/getatt...Trends-in-Fiber-Optic-Connector-Cleaning.aspx

Here's some outtakes of that paragraph

........ An assumption is generally made that the dust caps on the connector’s optical contacts ensure that the connector’s end face is clean and ready to use. Quite the opposite. As Lee states, “Most people think they can remove the dust cap and plug it in. In fact, the inside of the dust cap can actually have signifi cant dirt or other contaminates that are easily transferred to the contact’s end face......

As the use of Fiber-optics contenues and the speeds increase. Insuring that the interconnects are clean so as not to interfere with the light transmission is becoming more and more important than ever before

Unfortunately I could not find the paper that I was looking for that covers the pitfalls of poor cleaning of fiber connectors

Every manufacture, industry group, and organizations stress the importance of properly cleaning both the cable connector and the equipment socket connector prior to mating. Fiber is not a plug-n-play item.

 

['putertutor]

I won't be using fiber as I have no experience with it and don't want to learn on this job. And, outside of the distance, it really doesn't provide any benefit in this case.

@Mercenary Roadie thanks for the link. I started looking and found some other options as well.

I think this is the route I will take. Thanks for all the input!

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

I found that article that I couldn't find earlier. It's in the February 2015 edition of Cabling Installation & Maintenance magazine.

This is the article I was looking for.

http://www.cablinginstall.com/artic...sentials-and-evolution-of-fiber-cleaning.html

The very last question and it's answer are the main points I wanted to get across on the need to properly clean Fiber before every connection.

 

[pceinc]

The first part of my reply "that used to be the case" was directed towards your first statement that not many techs have the proper cleaning tools. I think if you're purchasing fiber cables you would also purchase the cleaning wipes since they are cheap. We use Sticklers outdoor clean wipes that are foil sealed for all applications. These are used when to clean the stripped fiber before splicing as well as cleaning the ends before connection is made.

To quote myself "They make wipes for this purpose."

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

The first part of my reply "that used to be the case" was directed towards your first statement that not many techs have the proper cleaning tools. I think if you're purchasing fiber cables you would also purchase the cleaning wipes since they are cheap. We use Sticklers outdoor clean wipes that are foil sealed for all applications. These are used when to clean the stripped fiber before splicing as well as cleaning the ends before connection is made.

To quote myself "They make wipes for this purpose."

Lets take a look at your OP shall we

That used to be the case. However, now that Leviton makes pre-polished field terminating connectors, anyone with half a brain can do it.
They make wipes for this purpose. As longs as you're not doing it in a dust storm, there shouldn't be any problems.
Also, if purchasing a pre-made cable, the cable will come with protective ends on the fiber connector which are removed at installation.

Your second statement is with Leviton pre-polished field terminating connectors, anyone with half a brain can do it. You and I both know that is not true. Field terminating any fiber connector is a skilled process and Levitons pre-polished connectors doesn't change that and has nothing to do with cleaning the connectors prior to mating them.

Your third point out that they make wipes for that purpose which is true, but wipes don't solve the static issue and they cannot be used on sockets
Your fourth point states so long as you're not in a dust storm you shouldn't have any problems. That is an incorrect statement, you ever noticed those tents and special trucks with the fiber bundles running into them even on calm days. Any dust, dirt or even fingerprint oil can cause issues and damage.

Read the articles I posted especially that last one as it answers all of the questions as to why you need to clean the connectors and what it is that you are cleaning off of the connectors. You can not and will never be able to know if the connector ends are clean just by looking a them.

The Stickler wipes will do part of the job if they are use with the cleaning fluid and the holder. By themselves they are no better than using you shirt and you still need the proper cleaning tools to clean the equipment sockets as wipes don't fit.

Your final statement says that all pre-made cable come with protective ends i.e dust covers. Again read the last like I posted and the last question and answer for a detailed response from an authority in the field as to why dust cover don't do what their name says.

I'll state it again. Most techs do not have the required tools to properly clean fiber connectors and I even add that most of those that have them don't know the proper use of them.