Linux on the desktop

[Diggs]

For a decade now I've always thought that Linux was just about ready to turn the corner and start gaining market share on the desktop but as the stats below show it just hasn't/isn't going to happen after all these years.



In turn, there are more Linux kernels in the online world (40%+ of all traffic) than Windows kernels (~36%). Linux overtook Windows in the online world (back in 2016 I think) due to the predominance of Linux servers/crawlers..

 

[Altster]

Yeah, but let me tell you something.... As a geeky type of person (me) I've enjoyed taking on the world of Linux and have settled on Linux Mint 18.3. I've also looked at other distros but for the desktop, Mint is my way to go. I actually enjoy using the CLI but know that the average Joe / Josephine will have trouble with that.

I hope that more and more people find their way to a great O/S (Linux) and get away from that proprietary stuff from Redmond! I have switched a few older clients to Mint and as far as I know, they love it! I could go on and on but not going to.

 

[GTP]

But *nix has huge slice of the tablet/phone/car/toaster/fridge/washing machine/heart monitor/heater/TV/radio/clock/vibrator/medical/server/supercomputer/auto/ etc market.

And don't forget that Windows wannabe "MacOS" is a *nix underneath. But it's about as flash as a rat with a gold tooth.

 

[Mike McCall]

There's two main objections end users have with Linux (IMHO):

1. Anything to do with a command line.
2. Constantly having to provide their password to accomplish tasks freely allowed in Windows. (Yeah, I know but they don't care.)

 

[phaZed]

Here's the problem with linux:

Most people are too ignorant to be able to use it. I know that's harsh... but most people have a hard time typing a web address or finding 'My Documents' - Pick any number of mundane tasks - "Allow Windows to run this program?" - "Duh, what do I do!". Look at the amount of people that are unaware that the Windows 10 Start Menu is customizable and not 'set in stone'.... "I hate Windows 10! It always has these stupid games, here, that I don't want!"... "Right click, uninstall?".... nope, too hard.

I kind of like being part of the 1%... If people knew linux, they certainly wouldn't call for help about Windows!

 

[nerd2u]

I don't know how many times I tell customers if all they want to do is access Facebook and check some email Linux will handle it all without having to purchase windows.

They usually look at me like I have 3 heads.

Had one customer who was using their PC's as dumb terminals to remote to a terminal server with all their apps told them they could go Linux and save a ton of money on windows upgrades and hardware would stay relevant longer.

Nope they had to stick with windows wouldn't even let me give them a demo of Linux.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

 

[NJW]

For a decade now I've always thought that Linux was just about ready to turn the corner and start gaining market share on the desktop but as the stats below show it just hasn't/isn't going to happen after all these years.

Well, I've long since given up trying to change the world, one desktop at a time or any other way.

Linux does everything I need on my desktop and I have never had to remove it from a customer's PC, even with a money-back guarantee on conversions from Windows. A couple of French customers have actually asked me for it, as they remember using it in school.

Historically, there have been problems with connecting some Android phones, but that's no longer an issue; the only current sticking point is updating older sat nav devices – in-car and stand-alone – because they will only do so using their own proprietary software. This is becoming less of a problem, especially with stand-alone units, as they increasingly have built-in Wi-Fi for this.

I do have Windows 7 in a VM on my on-site laptop, which is literally only used for running a Powerline discovery and management app. If I could be bothered, I could get myself set up to that in Linux too, but I use the app maybe once every couple of years, so ... well, priorities. Maybe after January 2020.

 

[NJW]

1. Anything to do with a command line.

Such as?

If it is really needed, that's what my support is for. It's not a high-volume thing. And don't trot out the 'put a shortcut on the Desktop' thing again, because you didn't convince us before. (Hmm, can't find that old thread – was it links on the Desktop or Bookmarks? Dunno, something like that.)

2. Constantly having to provide their password to accomplish tasks freely allowed in Windows. (Yeah, I know but they don't care.)

You can set sudo to not require a password, if you must.

Both pretty thin arguments, frankly.

 

[coffee]

IMO, Windows has pretty much become irrelevant today. The only thing that keeps redmond going is their contracts with PC / Laptop makers.

However, We will always have sheeple in the world. These people will have to use windows and put up with all its stupid stuff because they have no computers skills whatever. They never developed them in all the years we have had computers around. These are the people that cannot even navigate windows past their desktop. Its no wonder these people will also bring their shortcoming to linux if they did switch.

What I enjoy most on linux is the command line. You can really get so much done a lot quicker in a lot of things rather than the GUI. But, the GUI does have its benefits too.

Another thing that I like about linux is that you can just edit a config file for a service and restart it. You do not have to go search all over the place to find settings that need to be changed. If I need to change settings in my dhcp server its pretty darn easy. I can even ssh in and do it. Done in a minute or less.

 

[Diggs]

The NEED for command line went pretty much away by Ubuntu 8.4 days. There's some things it still does better and those that know it like to use it. A novice would never need to use it.

....and yes. Linux asks for a password during important operations. It does NOT ask me - "Are you sure?" or "Do you want to allow the following program from an unknown publisher to make changes to this computer?", etc, etc......

 

[GTP]

By far the biggest whine I get when I show people Linux is "can I put Office or photoshop or some other Windows program on it?"
Next is can I send and receive email and go on the internet?

FFS!

 

[LordIntruder]

You can set sudo to not require a password, if you must.

I am one of these people who are able to tell the system that a sudo in a terminal window doesn't need a password. But on the desktop I am obviously too dumb to realize that. Every time I start a gparted, a gsmartcontrol or something else that needs to have root's rights it asks me for a password. Okay I did not really do a serious investigation on that because I know my passwords.

On the other hand I won't disable the question for a password on customer's machine because that customer should realize that he leaves the user's path and is going to do some (maybe harmful) administrational thing in that moment.

 

[Mike McCall]

Such as?

If it is really needed, that's what my support is for. It's not a high-volume thing. And don't trot out the 'put a shortcut on the Desktop' thing again, because you didn't convince us before. (Hmm, can't find that old thread – was it links on the Desktop or Bookmarks? Dunno, something like that.)

I don't recall saying this. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

You can set sudo to not require a password, if you must.

Ok, I know I can for login. Is it also possible to do that when updating or installing? If so, that's news to me.

Several of my clients refuse to even have a login password and would balk at the notion of ever needing a password to do anything. Yes, we've had the discussion several times. No, they won't change their mind. Remember, they're end users.

Both pretty thin arguments, frankly.

Perhaps from our perspective, but the original post questioned the general lack of adoption by the public. End users tend to stick with what they know and (think) they understand. They don't like anything new, or anything which requires them to change. That's not to say there aren't those who would happily make the switch, but the numbers originally quoted suggest a majority would not.

Opinions vary on all the contributing factors, but end users are basically lazy. Windows will never require them to use a command line (though we use it), and merely asks them to click "OK" to install a program. Even if we see it as a minor difference, any difference is a challenge to them.

I have to wonder if part of this is a cultural difference. Perhaps the French are less captive to Windows than Americans and more open to a flavor of Linux? I don't know. If so, that's a plus for you!

 

[NJW]

On the other hand I won't disable the question for a password on customer's machine because that customer should realize that he leaves the user's path and is going to do some (maybe harmful) administrational thing in that moment.

I absolutely agree with you and I have never disabled any password prompts for user actions for the reasons that you mention, but it can be done.

 

[NJW]

I don't recall saying this. Perhaps you're thinking of someone else?

My unreserved apologies – it was someone else, sorry.

My original question stands, however – when do your potential Linux users have to use the command line?

End users tend to stick with what they know and (think) they understand. They don't like anything new, or anything which requires them to change. That's not to say there aren't those who would happily make the switch, but the numbers originally quoted suggest a majority would not.

Opinions vary on all the contributing factors, but end users are basically lazy. Windows will never require them to use a command line (though we use it), and merely asks them to click "OK" to install a program. Even if we see it as a minor difference, any difference is a challenge to them.

Oh, I know inertia is a real thing. But it's well within living memory that Windows didn't ask for passwords or approval to do anything, so living with UAC has only become 'normal' since Vista (though there was a lot of pushback at the time) and is now seen as just something to click through. Inertia isn't insurmountable.

But if they don't want Linux, they don't want it. That's okay, too – I can certainly earn more per Windows seat than per Linux seat, but the Linux seats are far less stressful for me to support.

 

[Mike McCall]

My unreserved apologies – it was someone else, sorry.

No worries.

My original question stands, however – when do your potential Linux users have to use the command line?

Many (most?) Linux pages reference a CLI for getting things done. A Google search for "Linux" produces (for me, and below the ads):

Wikipedia
Nothing helpful to an end user there, though it is at the top of the page.

Linux.org
While I didn't check every article, the ones I did check all reference the CLI for getting things done.

Even Linux.org's beginner pages are all about the command line.

https://linux.org/forums/linux-beginner-tutorials.123/

The Linux Foundation
Nothing there for the end user.

Ubuntu
Ubuntu's main page which requires a potential end user to find the link to the desktop page.

https://ubuntu.com/desktop
Following the link finally presents a potential end user with information they might make sense of. Once again they must follow another link to get to see some of the features.

https://ubuntu.com/desktop/features
While nothing in these pages reference a CLI, it won't take long for an end user to run into it being referenced as the preferred way of getting things done as we've already seen.

Linux Mint
While I happen to like this distribution, an end user arriving here is presented with a slider with information which won't make any sense to them since they're not familiar with Linux at this point. Should they follow the link to the User Guide and download the PDF, at the bottom of page 10 and after downloading the ISO, they're asked to verify the ISO. Here are the instructions:



Before they get it installed they are instructed to open a CLI.

Kernel.org
Nothing there for the end user.

Red Hat - Understanding Linux

This is at the top of the page:



Far more likely to be intimidating to an end user than inviting.

Red Hat - Containers are Linux

Again, from the top of the page:



And again more intimidating to a new user than inviting.

I didn't hand pick these pages to make my point These are what came up and in order from my generic search for "Linux." More importantly for this discussion is the perspective of an end user regarding Linux in general. It would be nearly impossible for a new or potential new Linux user not to be confronted with using a CLI. Do they absolutely HAVE to use one? No. However, should they search for how to do xxx, they will be confronted with instructions using a CLI. Which goes back to my original comment - anything to do with a CLI end users want no part of.

Oh, I know inertia is a real thing. But it's well within living memory that Windows didn't ask for passwords or approval to do anything, so living with UAC has only become 'normal' since Vista (though there was a lot of pushback at the time) and is now seen as just something to click through. Inertia isn't insurmountable.

But if they don't want Linux, they don't want it. That's okay, too – I can certainly earn more per Windows seat than per Linux seat, but the Linux seats are far less stressful for me to support.

Not sure why you've decided to pick this bone with me other than your being an avid proponent of Linux. That's fine, but the original post makes it clear that end user adoption simply hasn't caught on. A CLI may no longer be "required," but when it comes to Linux it is heavily referenced making it nearly impossible for an end user to avoid it.

I have used various flavors off and on since the early '90's. For various reasons it has not (yet) taken over my office or personal PC usage. I refuse to engage in the OS wars all over again. They went nowhere then and will go nowhere now.

 

[Altster]

Yep, Linux will never be mainstream for the average user who just wants to point, click and infect their computers. Most don't even know what DOS prompt is and those who do don't want to have to fool with anything that isn't "point, click & infect!"

...And this is alright for most of us in the repair of computer(s) industry.

 

[NJW]

Not sure why you've decided to pick this bone with me other than your being an avid proponent of Linux. That's fine, but the original post makes it clear that end user adoption simply hasn't caught on. A CLI may no longer be "required," but when it comes to Linux it is heavily referenced making it nearly impossible for an end user to avoid it.

Be assured that it's emphatically not directed at you, only an attempt to counter the points that you put forward and that I think are unfounded in connection with a modern Linux distribution for end-users.

I'll agree that some of your links illustrate your point well (the Linux Mint example is a nightmare, but they have suffered media corruption on the server, so it's a bit of CYA, I suppose). Others not so much (I glaze over when Kubernetes comes up and I've never even tried to mine the RedHat site – hardly end-user stuff).

The reason why the command-line is used so much in user support forums is that it's a reliable way of getting past differences in desktop environment and user settings. The CLI will, generally, either work as intended or supply an error message and is a better support vehicle for the "I click on this icon and it doesn't do anything, what's wrong?" question. Ninety-nine times out of 100 there's a GUI alternative for a CLI instruction, but explaining how to get to the GUI will be complicated by environment.

But this is why I offer Linux installation and support. I'm there to make sure that the installation works, explain how to get started and answer any questions arising. About half (I'm guessing) of my Linux users are in the 'Facebook and email is the Internet' group, others are from commercial and professional backgrounds, either still working or retired but still active. None is a computer professional and ability and experience level is right across the spectrum. None has given up on Linux after trying it. They have no need to find out where to get the scanner firmware or how to download and verify the installation .iso. (After all, there are professional technicians on Technibble who don't know how to get a current Windows installation image and have never even considered verifying the download.)

 

[timeshifter]

And don't forget that Windows wannabe "MacOS" is a *nix underneath.

Mac OS is a Windows wannabe? Yeah, I forgot about that... recalling how Microsoft sued Apple over it years ago... wait, what??

 

[Choppie]

I don't know how many times I tell customers if all they want to do is access Facebook and check some email Linux will handle it all without having to purchase windows.

They usually look at me like I have 3 heads.

Had one customer who was using their PC's as dumb terminals to remote to a terminal server with all their apps told them they could go Linux and save a ton of money on windows upgrades and hardware would stay relevant longer.

Nope they had to stick with windows wouldn't even let me give them a demo of Linux.

Sent from my SM-G870W using Tapatalk

They insist on doing things wrong even if it causes them to call you every 4 months to bail them out of a crashed computer.

ME: Dude, you can't do it that way, do it this way, trust me, I've been doing this for 25 years now---

FREAKING HARD HEAD CLIENT: "Yeah, but, Nahhh, I wanna do it this way, its the only way I know how, I don't want to change now". Mozilla "Box Fire" is too confusing for me"

ME: Fine, that will be $120.00 please.