Just mind boggling...no words

[Sky-Knight]

Yours is a problem, but an AZ problem, for sure!

Oh I'm certain of that! My point is that there's been a huge push largely by the left to make abortions, contraceptives, and certain other medical procedures available to minors without parental consent or involvement. This was supposed to reduce child abuse, because the girls could have their problems fixed without mom and dad having a clue. This movement is well beyond Arizona.

That's what Metanis was referencing earlier, and why your response to him was utterly bonkers. I was just pointing out my situation as a small slice of further evidence. This stuff is quite real, and the state is trying to remove parents from some decisions in some cases. None of them are tolerable as far as I'm concerned.

 

[britechguy]

That's what Metanis was referencing earlier, and why your response to him was utterly bonkers.

And I think that your response, and Metanis's initial premise, are utterly bonkers in the vast majority of cases.

There is no real "left" in American politics. AOC would be considered pretty centrist in most countries we call close allies. There is not some massive movement to make parents rights with regard to their children vanish.

Getting any major medical procedure, including an abortion, without parental consent virtually always involves court oversight.

What you're doing is making up the breadth and extent of "these problems" out of the whole cloth. They're just not as you (or Metanis) have characterized them. Nor is most of what you call "the left" pushing hard what you portray. And even if they were, "the left" has had nearly zero political power in this country for decades. What's occurring now is just the smallest step away from what the right-wing has become accustomed to as skating along for decades. I, for one, welcome it, because it's actual public policy and based on trying many somethings that might work for things we already know don't work.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy

Go educate yourself: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/l...gnancy/parental-consent-and-notification-laws

Alaska, Colorado, California, Connecticut, Delware (if between 16 and 18), DC, Hawaii, Maine... I could keep going.

And no, this isn't some magic court order requirement land. These states let girls just go have an abortion done, as a minor, WITHOUT PARENTAL NOTIFICATION, much less permission, and no court order required.

I'm also aware that the "left" in the US isn't really left, but that's just deflection at best, and whataboutism at worst considering the context of this conversation and utterly beneath you to even attempt. You knew what political group I was referring to.

I'll continue to support Mantis in his comment, because within American political constructs, and the current legal reality in MANY US states, it's utterly bloody accurate. You can't own a gun in CA without all these hoops... but by golly if you're 14 and pregnant you can murder your own child and never even have to tell your parents!

I feel like a strange old man in the corner when I point out... you either trust the people of this nation with the power over life and death, or you don't. Make up your bloody minds! If guns are regulated, then abortion should be TOO. For all the SAME REASONS.

 

[britechguy]

I'll continue to support Mantis in his comment

And I won't. So we'll agree to disagree. You are making mountains out of not even molehills.

By the way, that Planned Parenthood page supports my position a lot more strongly than yours. It's a tiny minority of states (or equivalent) where unrestricted access to abortion for minors is an option. And I doubt in most cases where a minor has an abortion that a parent, or someone in loco parentis, is not involved.

 

[britechguy]

If guns are regulated, then abortion should be TOO. For all the SAME REASONS.

If there was ever a false equivalence, this is the textbook example. It also doesn't hold up to two seconds of rational scrutiny.

 

[Sky-Knight]

And I won't. So we'll agree to disagree. You are making mountains out of not even molehills.

By the way, that Planned Parenthood page supports my position a lot more strongly than yours. It's a tiny minority of states (or equivalent) where unrestricted access to abortion for minors is an option. And I doubt in most cases where a minor has an abortion that a parent, or someone in loco parentis, is not involved.

And yet the states that do are the ones that the US left has used as their strongholds for years. That's where Democrat legal experimentation happens. I'm not saying this as a bad thing either, it's Federal stuff happening as it should. But it does indicate what that political force WANTS nationally. And you're willfully ignoring that.

I also love how you determine a child to not be an actual child just because it's really small... that's fun too.

 

[britechguy]

I also love how you determine a child to not be an actual child just because it's really small... that's fun too.

Truly, not going to get into this here.

If you believe that a child is a child from the moment of fertilization, that's just fine. If you don't, that's fine. A decision about carrying any pregnancy should not be anyone's to make except the person who has to carry it. My morals need not be your morals. That's one of the things I love about living in a pluralistic society that had its political system created around humanistic Enlightenment principles, not the religious dictates of any given religion.

Your beliefs, and the ability to act on those as your conscience sees fit, when it comes to things like abortion, end of life decisions, whether exceptional measures should be made to prolong life, and similar are things I should not have any part in. They don't affect me in any meaningful way, and any attempt to insert myself into them impinges on your rights in the most intrusive way.

 

[britechguy]

But it does indicate what that political force WANTS nationally. And you're willfully ignoring that.

No, I'm not.

What any given political quarter wants versus what it gets is dependent on a complex interplay of factors and I expect that what one quarter wants and gets in one place may be very much opposed to what it wants and gets in another. 'Twas ever thus.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Truly, not going to get into this here.

If you believe that a child is a child from the moment of fertilization, that's just fine. If you don't, that's fine. A decision about carrying any pregnancy should not be anyone's to make except the person who has to carry it. My morals need not be your morals. That's one of the things I love about living in a pluralistic society that had its political system created around humanistic Enlightenment principles, not the religious dictates of any given religion.

Your beliefs, and the ability to act on those as your conscience sees fit, when it comes to things like abortion, end of life decisions, whether exceptional measures should be made to prolong life, and similar are things I should not have any part in. They don't affect me in any meaningful way, and any attempt to insert myself into them impinges on your rights in the most intrusive way.

Let's boil this down...

Science says life starts at conception. But for Democrats not if that life is human.

That's the end of it, nothing else you say matters. I didn't say that abortion was wholly unjustified, I didn't even speak in favor of its abolishment. But if we aren't talking about this from the concept of life is bloody sacred, there's no possible conversation to be had.

And California Dems are particularly bad at this, because they're OK with a 14 year old girl murdering her own unborn child without even a notice to her parents. But they're not OK with her blowing the head off her rapist.

Because yes, Gun Control and Abortion have a LOT in common. Two very different things, but hung up in a political mire deeper than the Mariana Trench because people refuse to speak in reasonable terms. *I* trust the people more than my government with the power over life and death. So while I don't like abortion, I don't seek to constrain it. For all the same reasons I'm left not supporting gun control when it comes along. The laws are poorly written, and create more pain. Never less pain... always more.