Home sale issue...

[katz]

I know this is way off base for a PC forum. However, I know we have a diverse group of knowledgeable folks on here, so maybe "someone knows someone" who could help out with an issue.

The short version of this is;

We are trying to sell our modular/double wide home, which is considered a "vehicle" by the state. It is on a permanent foundation, since 1982. The state issues titles for these homes, just like for your car, and we never had titles for it. In fact, a title search shows that titles never existed for this home.

The original seller of the home, a manufactured home dealer is long since out of business.

The issue here is that no lender will write a mortgage for a buyer without titles. This is a new law since 2008, and we purchased this home in 1999, when titles were not required.

We have dealt with our state titling agency, three realtors, two attorneys, and are basically spending money and chasing our tail, with no results.

We actually had a buyer lined up, agreed to the price, is ready to buy NOW, but the lender will not write a loan for him.

Does this sound familiar to ANYONE here, or can anyone point us in a direction where we can get results on this.

Thanks so much!

 

[mraikes]

Given that you've already talked to experts in your area, you're probably right about it being a longshot here.

But by what device did you transfer ownership from the previous owner to yourself in 1999?

Any chance the manufacturer's original certificate of occupancy is stuffed in the back of a drawer somewhere?

 

[Mike McCall]

Many years ago I did a brief stint in Mortgages and recall very little of any value. Please take nothing I say as having any value whatsoever.

As I recall, DMV handles titles and such for mobile homes, at least in Oregon. Your State must have a process for lost titles for cars, home-built utility trailers and such. That's where I would go. Expect to pay to jump through lots of hoops, but I suspect DMV is where you want to go.

 

[glricht]

As I recall, DMV handles titles and such for mobile homes, at least in Oregon. Your State must have a process for lost titles for cars, home-built utility trailers and such. That's where I would go. Expect to pay to jump through lots of hoops, but I suspect DMV is where you want to go.

It's similar in Georgia. My wife passed away about three months ago and I decided to sell our modular home. Had a buyer with cash-in-hand, but the title said "Gary AND Connie". Had to get the title changed to reference "Gary OR Connie" so I could sell it. In Georgia, modular homes are handled by the DMV just like a car, so I had to send a death certificate and a title change form to the DMV. They made the change, sent me an updated title and I was able to sell the house.

 

[mraikes]

But this doesn't sound like a "lost title" situation where OP can just go through that appropriate process and the state can recreate one. This is a "never titled" situation where the original seller no longer exists and apparently the state has no record of ownership whatsoever. A pretty ugly situation.

 

[Mike McCall]

But this doesn't sound like a "lost title" situation where OP can just go through that appropriate process and the state can recreate one. This is a "never titled" situation where the original seller no longer exists and apparently the state has no record of ownership whatsoever. A pretty ugly situation.

True, so it's the same as a home-built trailer or custom-made automobile. There is a process for titling never titled vehicles. DMV handles all that.

 

[mraikes]

True, so it's the same as a home-built trailer or custom-made automobile. There is a process for titling never titled vehicles. DMV handles all that.

Yup. But that probably occurred to the three realtors and two lawyers he's already dealt with, so probably not so straight forward.

If it could be categorized as "real property" based on its attachment to the ground, that might open up some options.

 

[Mike McCall]

Yup. But that probably occurred to the three realtors and two lawyers he's already dealt with, so probably not so straight forward.

If it could be categorized as "real property" based on its attachment to the ground, that might open up some options.

Agreed. We clearly don't have all the information.

Yes it can be titled as Real Property if it is permanently attached to a foundation. However, lending institutions, title companies, etc. are loathe to assume responsibility for making such decisions without proper CYA documentation. They way they are likely to want to approach it is to have DMV title the mobile home first and follow-up from there.

Clearly we don't have all the facts, and I could be completely wrong. However, as I recall this is the process and they don't like to do anything out of order.

 

[katz]

But this doesn't sound like a "lost title" situation where OP can just go through that appropriate process and the state can recreate one. This is a "never titled" situation where the original seller no longer exists and apparently the state has no record of ownership whatsoever. A pretty ugly situation.

Exactly. To make matters more difficult, the vin numbers (there are two required) are supposed to be stamped into the frame on either end, most likely near where the hitch originally was attached. However, the home is sitting on a permanent foundation, so those numbers are safely hidden away behind cement blocks.

Worst case scenario would be to have a mason come in, chisel out/remove the block, get a tracing of the numbers and cement it all back in. Ridiculous.

The reason this is a "big deal" NOW, is because before 2008, titles were not really required IF the home was considered permanently attached to the foundation. The tax records for the land AND home date back to 1982, and at the time we purchased it, that was all that was required. From what I understand, after the housing crash in '08, the lending laws were rewritten/updated, and now this is the result of those updated laws.

We've had little success dealing with the DMV, however, they are the ones who we ultimately need the cooperation with, because they would have the power to issue titles.

 

[Mike McCall]

Exactly. To make matters more difficult, the vin numbers (there are two required) are supposed to be stamped into the frame on either end, most likely near where the hitch originally was attached. However, the home is sitting on a permanent foundation, so those numbers are safely hidden away behind cement blocks.

Worst case scenario would be to have a mason come in, chisel out/remove the block, get a tracing of the numbers and cement it all back in. Ridiculous.

The reason this is a "big deal" NOW, is because before 2008, titles were not really required IF the home was considered permanently attached to the foundation. The tax records for the land AND home date back to 1982, and at the time we purchased it, that was all that was required. From what I understand, after the housing crash in '08, the lending laws were rewritten/updated, and now this is the result of those updated laws.

We've had little success dealing with the DMV, however, they are the ones who we ultimately need the cooperation with, because they would have the power to issue titles.

Ok, so we're on the right track with DMV being the primary authority in this. The VIN numbers are the key. No one will move without them. You'll have to find a way to get to them before DMV will title it. Then the other entities will fall into line as well.

EDIT: Spelling

 

[katz]

Ok, so we're on the right track with DMV being the primary authority in this. The VIN numbers are the key. No one will move without them. You'll have to find a way to get to them before DMV will title it. Then the other entities will fall into line as well.

DMV is the ultimate authority on this, that is true. However, we were HOPING for mercy from the lenders or SOMEONE, considering the situation with the home being permanently blocked in, just like a regular "built" home. We had a real estate attorney investigate tax/title records, and she wrote up an affidavit stating all the facts...and the lender basically laughed at the paper.

Considering that the home has been permanently affixed to the foundation since the original manufacture date of 1982, and the tax records reflect that, we felt that should be sufficient proof. Like it has been said many times - "You can't fight city hall." Or maybe more accurately, you can't WIN the fight against city hall...

I posted this scenario here in the hopes that maybe someone on here has dealt with this, or may have an attorney contact that has experience in it, and found away around it.

 

[nlinecomputers]

The reason this is a "big deal" NOW, is because before 2008, titles were not really required IF the home was considered permanently attached to the foundation. The tax records for the land AND home date back to 1982, and at the time we purchased it, that was all that was required. From what I understand, after the housing crash in '08, the lending laws were rewritten/updated, and now this is the result of those updated laws.

I can't believe that there isn't some kind of grandfather clause for this. Lots of people would be in that situation.

 

[Mike McCall]

I feel for you. However, you are not alone in such troubles. Perhaps these links might be helpful in locating the VIN:

http://www.mcgarryandmadsen.com/ins...tification_number_(VIN)_on_a_mobile_home.html

https://www.mobilehomesell.com/mobile-home-vin-number/

If you had purchased the steel to build the frame with and built the mobile home yourself, you should be able to get a custom title. However, since a licensed manufacturer built it with a VIN number, that's the direction DMV is forced to go.

 

[mraikes]

Or investigate converting it to real property with a permanent foundation claim. There's usually a process for doing that. The crux of the problem is everyone is thinking of it as a trailer and "personal property". Get it categorized as a home on a permanent foundation and the situation changes completely.

This isn't for PA, but is generally what I'm referring to: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/convert-mobile-home-real-property-72277.html

But maybe PA doesn't allow for such things.

 

[katz]

I can't believe that there isn't some kind of grandfather clause for this. Lots of people would be in that situation.

Agreed. There should be a clause, and you are correct, A LOT of folk are in this situation right now, we are finding out. The last realtor/businessman that we spoke with directed us to contact our local congressman, which we have done a couple days ago. His office seemed to take an interest in the issue, and they are checking with the DMV and a couple other agencies right now.

Maybe the good thing to come out of this is, since the congressman has been made aware of the issue, he will introduce legislation to create a loophole, or whatever is needed in cases like this.

Or investigate converting it to real property with a permanent foundation claim. There's usually a process for doing that. The crux of the problem is everyone is thinking of it as a trailer and "personal property". Get it categorized as a home on a permanent foundation and the situation changes completely.

To do that we NEED the title, lol. This is the law in Penna., and I'm sure other states as well. We went down that road in the very beginning. The original attorney attempted to do that for us, it is called "killing the title/surrendering the title" as real property. As we all are realizing, this all comes down to "the letter of the law." It is written, and everyone is sticking to the written word. In other word, "Do it my way, or hit the road."

Honestly, on Monday, I am going to contact a local mason to see how much it will cost to remove the blocks so we can get to the vin number stamped in the frame. It looks like it may come down to that.

 

[Mike McCall]

https://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter401/chap401toc.html

http://mhd.nv.gov/uploadedFiles/mhdnvgov/Content/Licensing/DealerSection04-Conversions.pdf

http://www.rhls.org/wp-content/uploads/2014_1_18-Presentation-of-Manufactured-Home-Owners-Rights.pdf

From the York County, Pennsylvania website:

"Do you have a deed for my mobile home or trailer?

If you own the land that the mobile home is on, yes. If not, then no. Please contact the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation for a title to your mobile home."

Again, the sticking point appears to be the title to the mobile home, which will require the VIN to get straightened out. I would love to be wrong about this.

 

[Mike McCall]

Have you looked inside the closet in the master bedroom? (Dumb question I know.)

 

[katz]

Have you looked inside the closet in the master bedroom? (Dumb question I know.)

We've done it all Mike. But there are no "dumb questions" here, I appreciate you mentioning it. That is why I created this thread; we are grasping at straws, looking for ANY suggestions/answers that folks can offer.

Something that I learned in all of this is, that manufactured homes have multiple titles - one for each section. So we actually need two titles in this case. There is a HUD label inside the Power panel box, which is kinda helpful, but that is still only the number for one half, and we need both numbers, lol.

 

[Mike McCall]

Gotcha. Yes, double-wides (for example) have VIN's for each half. Saw this on one of the sites mentioned above:

"The data plate is usually inside the of the master bedroom closet on the wall. Or, you may instead find it on the back of a cabinet door under the kitchen sink. One other place you may check for the data plate is the area surrounding the back door of your mobile home."

Odd places to put them, but have you looked in every nook & cranny? Reaching myself.

Can they find the title for the half you do have the VIN for???

 

[nlinecomputers]

For a double wide the numbers should end in a and b.