Electronics-recycling innovator faces prison for trying to extend computers' lives

[TechLady]

If I had to pick a side here, it's not Microsoft's.

http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-microsoft-restore-disc-20180215-story.html

Lundgren said he thought electronics companies wanted the reuse of computers to be difficult so that people would buy new ones.* "I started learning what planned obsolescence was," he said, "and I realized companies make laptops that only lasted as long as the insurance would last. It infuriated me. That's not what a healthy society should have." He thought that producing and selling restore discs to computer refurbishers — saving them the hassle of downloading the software and burning new discs — would encourage more secondhand sales. In his view, the new owners were entitled to the software, and this just made it easier. The government, and Microsoft, did not see it that way.

"In essence, I got in the way of Microsoft's profits, so they pushed this into federal court on false pretense," Lundgren said. He said McGloin "testified that a free restore CD was worth the same price as a new Windows operating system with a license. ... This was false and inaccurate testimony provided by Microsoft in an attempt to set a precedent that will scare away future recyclers and refurbishers from reusing computers without first paying Microsoft again for another license. ... Anyone successfully extending the life cycle of computers or diverting these computers from landfills for reuse in society is essentially standing in the way of Microsoft's profits."

[* He's correct]

 

[mraikes]

I'm more or less on the defendant's side, but still. If he would have come to Technibble and asked us "Hey guys, is it OK for me to make duplicates of Dell's restore disks and sell them?" I suspect the answer would have been a resounding no.

And in case you think your answer would have been "yes", here's what he did:

He made 28,000 Chinese copies of Dell restore disks and tried to ship them to a distributor in the US. He labeled the disks almost identically and used Dell and Microsoft's logos. And this isn't a naive kid new to the business. It's someone who should really understand all the ramifications of what he was doing even more than we do.

So sure - the big guys are trying hard to make an example of him, and I'd like to stand up for the little guy. But if there was ever a case of someone working really hard to bring fire and brimstone down upon his own head, I think this is it.

 

[Markverhyden]

To be honest I have little sympathy for Lundgren. As so often happens in this fake/misleading news age the title is completely misleading. The 140, or even the 280, character crowd won't bother reading or understanding what really happened. Think about this title. "Grocery store trying to starve homeless people to death". When what really happened is someone came in to the store and shoplifted a bunch of food claiming they were trying to feed homeless people.

Don't mistake my comments. I'm in no way approve of much of the monopolistic behavior of many of these companies. But they do have a right to protect their intellectual property, just like real property. That's why things like OSS came into being.

I don't doubt for a second that Lundgren knew about the copyright's for these disks. As well as understanding the arrangements between the OEM's and M$.

 

[Computer Bloke]

He made 28,000 Chinese copies of Dell restore disks

Is a "Chinese" copy worse than any other kind of copy or are we just using it as a general term of abuse now?

But they do have a right to protect their intellectual property

It's not just a right, it's an obligation to their shareholders*.

If Microsoft fails to put up a spirited defence in this instance - which is huge by anyone's standards - then they'll have set a precedent that might weaken their position in any future cases. They'd have to be crazy to let this slide, and whatever you think of Microsoft they're certainly not that.


* Yes, I am. Thank you for asking.

 

[phaZed]

Ya, no sympathy really. The guy runs a 41-Million-pound a year e-waste recycling company... he knew what he was doing. Doing it the *correct way* isn't really feasible any longer which kills his recycled computer sales. Sad day.

This kind of seals it for me:

In his view, the new owners were entitled to the software, and this just made it easier.

Well, sorry... you're wrong and it happens to be a crime. It has always been this way.

 

[timeshifter]

The article praises the guy because he's saving the environment from all that e-waste. Is he really?

I'd say he's just delaying it. And it might be more polluting in the long run. Sure, the e-waste can end up in 3rd world countries and have a negative impact. But, just because they sold or gave the computer to some user in a 3rd world country doesn't mean that it will be in service forever. When that computer breaks or is no longer usable for that new owner, do you think it will be properly recycled at that point? I don't.

 

[Your PCMD]

I understand the reasoning, but not the way it was handled or done. Yes, if he just labeled the disks "Restore Disk" and not used copyrighted logos and such, then they would be perfectly legal - provided he was not going to sell them - but he was. So in that retrospect, he broke the law.

This guy ins't an idiot and knew exactly what he was doing.

What makes my laugh however is that a new license key for refurbs is only $25 (from Microsoft) but for new computers, it's $100+ for the EXACT same operating system.

 

[mraikes]

Is a "Chinese" copy worse than any other kind of copy or are we just using it as a general term of abuse now?

Wow, if I mention that I had lunch in a Chinese restaurant yesterday (true story!), am I abusing someone?

I apologize if it somehow came across insultingly. If so, it was unintended. But China is part of the story, based on the information at hand.

His origin story is heavily connected to China (tracking waste products there).
He lives in China.
China is infamously lax on copyright protections (perhaps a factor here?).
China is famously a source of inexpensive products produced for export to the US (perhaps a factor here?).
He used a Chinese company to virtually counterfeit 28,0000 Dell disks.
He was apparently caught because his shipment, from China, was intercepted/discovered.

It didn't occur to me that mentioning the nation of China as part of a story so strongly connected to China might be considered abusive.

Brother, this is the internet. If you don't dial back your abuse sensitivity meter just a smidge you're never going to be happy here.

 

[Sky-Knight]

You can, and I suspect most of us have made restore media for customers over the years. You do what you need to do to support the gear.

The catch of course? We didn't mislabel them to make them look official in anyway, and we didn't SELL them. Microsoft has a refurbishment program for a reason. How many of us participate in that or buy from those that do?

This guy is hurting all of us here, because he's bring a prick. Over what? $20? Really?

 

[Computer Bloke]

This guy is hurting all of us here, because he's bring a prick. Over what? $20? Really?

$20 x 28,000 = $560,000.

If that's chump change to you, please send me a cheque.

 

[Sky-Knight]

$20 x 28,000 = $560,000.

If that's chump change to you, please send me a cheque.

That's why he's going to get flattened. Because he was shorting every sale a pathetic $20. And he gets a pass because he's "saving the environment"? Since when to any of us get that benefit?

 

[phaZed]

41-Million-pound a year ewaste company... Assuming an unrealistically low $1/lb = $41 Million/yr

$20 x 28,000 = $560,000.

If that's chump change to you, please send me a cheque.

Chump change is defined by the wealth of who is spending it.

 

[Krynn72]

Is a "Chinese" copy worse than any other kind of copy

If it was made out of Chinesium it definitely is.

 

[Porthos]

if he just labeled the disks "Restore Disk" and not used copyrighted logos and such, then they would be perfectly legal - provided he was not going to sell them

You can not even give away a Windows OS disk no matter how you label it unless you have an OEM agreement with MS.

Does not matter now in the Win 10 environment since any user can download and make them on thier own.

 

[Markverhyden]

Is a "Chinese" copy worse than any other kind of copy or are we just using it as a general term of abuse now?

Think of all those American jobs that got shipped overseas to make those..... LOL!!!

 

[timeshifter]

Refurbisher licenses, in my limited experience, do not apply here. (I'm a registered MS refurbisher, but I think I've only ever bought about 10 licenses.) If you're selling a Dell with Windows 7 loaded and it came with Windows 7 there is no need for a refurbisher licensed copy. It's only when you want to upgrade to 7 or 10 from XP or Vista that you'd need it. I guess some systems may not have an OEM license for Windows, but I've not run into any from a major maker.

 

[Porthos]

If you're selling a Dell with Windows 7 loaded and it came with Windows 7 there is no need for a refurbisher licensed copy.

As long as the orignal recovery partition is there or you provide the orginal Dell branded recovery disk.

 

[Markverhyden]

Refurbisher licenses, in my limited experience, do not apply here. (I'm a registered MS refurbisher, but I think I've only ever bought about 10 licenses.) If you're selling a Dell with Windows 7 loaded and it came with Windows 7 there is no need for a refurbisher licensed copy. It's only when you want to upgrade to 7 or 10 from XP or Vista that you'd need it. I guess some systems may not have an OEM license for Windows, but I've not run into any from a major maker.

As long as the orignal recovery partition is there or you provide the orginal Dell branded recovery disk.

Read through the EULA and other M$ docs. If I remember correctly, if one is operating as a business to sell computers with a M$ OS on it you have to purchase the appropriate license from M$ or a partner. Say a customer decides not to repair their old Dell DT, leaves it with you. Even if they left the recovery disk you "cannot" sell it that way. Dell licenses their stuff, which is re-licensing Windoze so to speak, to the original purchaser only. Technically you have to buy a refurbisher license for that machine. That's the official line so to speak.

 

[Porthos]

Technically you have to buy a refurbisher license for that machine. That's the official line so to speak.

Rarely do you ever get a computer in that shape anyway. Or even want to inflect on a customer all the bloatware anyway.

I hate to say this, but I would like to see them go after all the shops selling refurbs that have not been properly refurbished. I think a good majority of them have computers on the shelf without the MS refurbisher licences.

It would force every one on a level playing field when it comes to refurbished computer prices.

 

[Computer Bloke]

I apologize if it somehow came across insultingly. If so, it was unintended. But China is part of the story, based on the information at hand.

It's possible that I'm a bit more sensitive to national and racial slurs than some - I'm an ex-British immigrant to New Zealand (a country so institutionally and culturally racist that it's officially described as bicultural) married to a delightful lady who grew up in Hong Kong. We often encounter casual disparagement of people who aren't from here ("not you, of course, the other immigrants") and sweeping generalisations based on country of origin, accent or skin colour. After a while the jokes about Asian drivers, Indian tech-support scammers and Chinese goods start to wear you down. One of the things I miss about Britain is its tolerance for other cultures - it's almost as if it's a proper grown-up country.

Anyway, it's interesting and a bit worrying that things described as Chinese (with the possible exception of food) increasingly do so in association with some negative characteristic, and very rarely in a positive context. For instance I don't think I've ever heard anyone boast about the build quality of their Chinese iPads, and yet that's exactly what they are.

The crime in this case (if that's what it turns out to be) was committed by an American citizen on American soil. The fact that Lundgren couldn't get the CDs duplicated economically without outsourcing the job to China is more a reflection on American manufacturing industry than Chinese quality standards or business ethics. Nothing illegal happened until the American importer brought the goods into the US.

Inserting the word "Chinese", while factually accurate, doesn't add anything meaningful to the story. Of course the CDs were manufactured overseas - it's the fastest and most cost-effective way to do it. So what?

If it was made out of Chinesium it definitely is.

It seems to be increasingly acceptable in (some) Western cultures to ridicule China and Chinese products, much in the same way that (some) Europeans used to ridicule Japanese products, especially cars and motorcycles. Who's laughing now?

First you ignore them, then you laugh at them, then you fight them, and then they win.

You can stop this at the second stage if you really want to.

(And that's the last I'm going to say on this subject, at least for a while.)