Customer's power issues

[westom]

I live in Australia and get the impression that where this chap lives (New Jersey) that it is area that gets a lot of thunderstorm activity.

Much early research on transistor protection was pioneered in New Jersy. Read it in late 1950s Bell System Technical Journals. A typical (Telstra) Central Office (CO), connected to buildings all over town, suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. They never used that APC technology for protection. Because 200 surges per storm must always mean no damage.

A typical home may have one potentially destructive surge in seven years. That APC does not even claim to protect from any typically destructive surge. Don't take my word for it. If your belief has merit, then post those APC spec numbers that claim protection. You can't for the same reason such protection was not implemented even in the 1950s.

 

[OzzyGeek]

If that rare PSU anomaly (that should never occur due to how a PSU is designed) destroyed the NIC, then it also destroyed everything else powered by the same voltage. Speculation somehow must explain how other parts suffered the same voltage extreme without damage.

Why only particular electronics damaged? Also explained. A surge is incoming to all appliances (powered on or off) simultaneously. Damaged are appliances also with a best outgoing path. Incoming and outgoing currents exist simultaneously everywhere in that path. Much later, something somewhere in that path fails.

Electricity does not do appliance damage like a wave on the beach. Electricity works differently. Too many still think of a surge as if an ocean wave.

As engineers, we had to explain every failure. Even had to retrain electricians. Why outgoing via cable? Verizon lines also have earth protection long before anyone of us existed. As required by code. And virtually unknown when information only comes from advertising and hearsay.

Unfortunately that connection to earth makes cable and telephone appliances a perfect connection to earth. And gets ignored by many who then use speculation.

Protection was always about no surge current inside the building. No current inside means no current need find earth destructively via cable or telephone appliances. A concept well understood for over 100 years. And yes, all phone lines had protection generations before Verizon was even Bell Atlantic.

Informed building owners also implement the only solutoin that makes lightning irrelevant. NICs were destroyed because each NIC became a best connection from a cloud to distant earthborne charges. He had all but invited a surge to hunt for earth via his NIC and modem. Informed homowners earth one 'whole house' protector for about $1 per protected appliance. The superior solution also costs many times less money. The only solution found in any facility that cannot have damage.

Mate, I don't mean to be ignorant or to offend but your statement is as clear as mud or I don't have the brain power to follow.

Firstly, I think the original poster needs to give us info about the surge protector he gave his client for free and the model of the Antec PSU. I have APC backup surge protection setup in my workshop and I certainly would not be given a customer a free one of those.

Secondly assuming it was a surge, it may have been just enough to kill the PSU without damage to any component it was connected to inside the computer, I see this all the time in computer repair.

Finally, this client obviously lives in a high risk area for lightning and thunderstorms and it maybe just down to being unlucky, but one thing is for sure I would certainly be putting something like the APC Backup UPS ES between my electronics and the power/phone outlets.

 

[OzzyGeek]

Much early research on transistor protection was pioneered in New Jersy. Read it in late 1950s Bell System Technical Journals. A typical (Telstra) Central Office (CO), connected to buildings all over town, suffers about 100 surges with each thunderstorm. They never used that APC technology for protection. Because 200 surges per storm must always mean no damage.

A typical home may have one potentially destructive surge in seven years. That APC does not even claim to protect from any typically destructive surge. Don't take my word for it. If your belief has merit, then post those APC spec numbers that claim protection. You can't for the same reason such protection was not implemented even in the 1950s.

What do you mean by destructive?

 

[westom]

What do you mean by destructive?

A typically destructive surge can blow through the superior protection inside appliances. For example, electronics were required to withstand about 1000 volts without damage. A computer's supply is even more robust - typically 2000 volts. What so many call a surge - ie a power cycling refrigerator - is only noise. A current that can actually damage appliances (ie in NJ) is typically about once every seven years. (Or maybe three times in 21 years.) Other factors (ie geology, intercontinential pipelines, etc) can change those numbers.

 

[westom]

Mate, I don't mean to be ignorant or to offend but your statement is as clear as mud or I don't have the brain power to follow.

Unfortunately, most hearsay only cites popular retail myths. For example, view spec numbers for an APC strip protector. Even that strip claims better protection than your APC battery backup. Most forget that numbers are always required to know something.

Posted so many times previously: if you know your APC Backup is better, then post the numbers that say so. That request is so easy IF protection exists. Still waiting for anyone to post spec numbers to justify their recommendation.

Standard protection means protection from direct lightning strike - in low and high risk areas. A best protector was sold in NJ for about $50. That's about $1 per protected appliance. How much for that APC? $100 per? And it does not even claim to protect from potentially destructive surges.

Early research for protecting munitions dumps was pioneered in northern NJ at the Picatinny Arsenal over a half century ago. Because direct lightning strikes must not even harm explosives. Reasons why were in a first post that even discussed Franklin's lightning rods. How to implement it in every home? So many post to deny - subjectively. So few ask to learn.

A direct lightning strike to AC wires far down the street will find a perfect connection to earth via NICs and cable modem IF a 'whole house' protector is not installed. If an NIC is damaged, then a surge current was inside. Damage often traceable to human failure.

How many volts must an NIC withstand without damage? About 2000. The surge, all but invited inside, had to be that significant and incoming to all household appliances.

Repeat NIC damage implies no properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Damage may have been made even easier by a protector too close to electronics. Protection from direct lightning strikes is routine. Protection is always about where energy does and does not dissipate - for structure protection and for appliance protection. As detailed earlier.

Effective protection obviously does not exist in an APC battery backup box. How much current or how many volts will it withstand without damage - according to its spec numbers?

 

[andcorptech]

=/

Am I the only one a bit skeptical about all this? How unlucky would you have to be do have a dead nic then a dead psu caused by thunderstorms on 2 diff occasions? What about the other electronics in the house?

If the other electronics are fine how about dying PSU kills onboard nic before going out.

It does happen unfortunatley. I had a customer a few years ago we replaced his computer 7 times in 4 years due to lightning strikes. The guy had trouble with everything , lights, ovens , TV etc. He ended up selling out and moving.

Apparently according to one insurance assessor he lived on a granite hill and the lightning was attracted to his house , as it was the only thing on the hill. He pretty much went uninsured after the first couple of years as the insurers would not touch him. He had to pay for most repairs and replacements after that.

 

[tek9]

OK. He just contacted me that every electrician in town is booked for the week, and he has someone set up for next week. They also told him to get a UPS.
According to the info here, I should get an APC for him. Can anyone recommend a specific model? He just has a simple setup: cable modem, PC, monitor, inkjet printer, cordless phone. Nothing else. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Edit: I'm considering this model: APC Back-UPS ES BE550G. Is this good enough for him? Or do I need something with more features etc.?
Edit#2: The BE550G doesn't have AVR, so I'm considering either Back-UPS Pro BR700G or BR1000G. The 1000G is just $10 more on Amazon than the 700G, so maybe I'll go with that. Does anybody know any specifics about these models, or any reason I should stay away from them because of bad experience?

 

[OzzyGeek]

OK. He just contacted me that every electrician in town is booked for the week, and he has someone set up for next week. They also told him to get a UPS.
According to the info here, I should get an APC for him. Can anyone recommend a specific model? He just has a simple setup: cable modem, PC, monitor, inkjet printer, cordless phone. Nothing else. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Edit: I'm considering this model: APC Back-UPS ES BE550G. Is this good enough for him? Or do I need something with more features etc.?
Edit#2: The BE550G doesn't have AVR, so I'm considering either Back-UPS Pro BR700G or BR1000G. The 1000G is just $10 more on Amazon than the 700G, so maybe I'll go with that. Does anybody know any specifics about these models, or any reason I should stay away from them because of bad experience?

Eaton also provide good ups products as well as APC but according to some posts we are wasting out time! but I would rather be safe than sorry as even the smallest Transient Impluse can be castrophe for a computer any way here is a link to the Eaton model for you.

http://powerquality.eaton.com/Products-services/Backup-Power-UPS/5110.aspx?cx=22

Eaton also have a power selector you can use to determine the right one for you http://powerquality.eaton.com/UPS/selector/by_WorkStation.asp

 

[tek9]

While checking out the APC and Eaton models, I came across a review on Amazon that says that the APC units aren't good for newer PSUs that have Active PFC because it doesn't have a "Pure Sine Wave". Do the Eaton models have that? If not, is CyberPower a good brand?

 

[westom]

Do the Eaton models have that? If not, is CyberPower a good brand?

There is no such thing as a pure sine wave. All UPSes output a sine wave because even a square wave is a sum of pure sine waves. Ignore the subjective claims. If your supply has active PFC, then you only might need a UPS that defines sine wave 'purity'. One such number is %THD. Most manufactureres will not provide that number because they are claiming a pure sine wave only 'subjectively'.

Subjectively, all UPSes are pure sine wave outputs. Technically, a UPS with a 20% THD and still called a sine wave output might cause problems.

 

[tek9]

There is no such thing as a pure sine wave. All UPSes output a sine wave because even a square wave is a sum of pure sine waves. Ignore the subjective claims. If your supply has active PFC, then you only might need a UPS that defines sine wave 'purity'. One such number is %THD. Most manufactureres will not provide that number because they are claiming a pure sine wave only 'subjectively'.

Subjectively, all UPSes are pure sine wave outputs. Technically, a UPS with a 20% THD and still called a sine wave output might cause problems.

Truth to tell, I don't understand much about all these terms, so I only have the manufacturer's words to go on. I saw this pdf document from APC: http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/RMUZ-7DTKRC_R1_EN.pdf, and they discuss the Active PFC issue. Can you take a look and tell me if it should make a difference? Thanks.

 

[tek9]

Dead mobo?

UPDATE:
The customer just dropped off the machine and it looks like it's the motherboard and not the PSU.
I tested the PSU and it checked out fine. The standby power light on the motherboard lights up but pushing the power button does nothing. I tried shorting the power pins but nothing happens. I shorted the P1 connector and the fans began spinning until I let go. I tried another PSU, same result. Changed CMOS battery, no change.
What would your diagnosis be for this machine? A dead motherboard, or did I still miss something?

 

[ComputerRepairTech]

If that rare PSU anomaly (that should never occur due to how a PSU is designed) destroyed the NIC, then it also destroyed everything else powered by the same voltage.

I can't recall a single situation where a psu took out everything powered by a particular voltage.

 

[westom]

Truth to tell, I don't understand much about all these terms, so I only have the manufacturer's words to go on.

Did the manufacturer explain these things with numbers? No. It could be the world's most honest truth. But without the underlying facts and numbers, to you (a consumer), it is probably a lie.

Maybe 1% of the people actually know this stuff. To keep the 1% silent, they must make claims subjectively; without facts and numbers.

So, what number does APC give. Well they define power factor with numbers (ie 0.6 or 0.7). Then recite lots of subjective mumbo jumbo - some correct and some wrong. Something about active PFC drawing too much current? Nonsense. It draws most current and still that current is at normal consumption.

Power factor: voltage is a sine wave. And current is a sine wave. If both sine waves peak at the same time, then power factor is 1 (ideal). Active PFC adjusts so that both sine waves are in synch. But that means active PFC must monitor that sine wave. If a UPS is square waves, stepped sine waves, spikes, or other ideal UPS power, then an active PFC control circuit may become confused.

Does 'confused' mean damage? Yes, implies the subjective claims. No, says reality. A confused PFC circuit only powers off - no damage to anything.

Do your electronics have active PFC or only passive? Most are only passive. No problem. Therefore 'dirtier' power (than seen on AC mains) is also ideal power. Why worry about a problem that does not exist?

It does not claim to solve anything found in your original post. For a better answer, post what is relevant. Manufacturer spec numbers. Then the 1% who really do know this stuff can put those numbers and the problem into what must always exist: perspective.

For example: numbers for selecting a UPS. A typical computer (with a 600 or 800 watt supply) consumes about 200 watts. And never more than 350 watts. Since a UPS battery typically lasts three years, then the UPS must be sized larger to still provide power three years later on a degraded battery. And to make other parameters such as power factor irrelevant. IOW a 350 watt computer needs at least a 500 watt UPS to compensate for battery degradation, et al. That number is your primary concern since that is a UPS's primary function.

Without numbers, subjective claims can even 'prove' the moon is made of cheese. Why no numbers? So that the fewer who know this stuff can only remain silent. What happens when power is too ‘dirty‘? Active PFC gets confused and powers off. That’s it. It only occurs during rare periods when the UPS is not connecting a computer directly to AC mains. Did they also forget to mention that part? Cleaner power from AC mains does not confuse active PFC.

Honest answers provide perspective - the numbers.

 

[westom]

I can't recall a single situation where a psu took out everything powered by a particular voltage.

Because that was a required function in computers long before the IBM PC existed. Power supply voltages take out everything - or nothing. Functions found in any minimally acceptable supply can never obtain those destructive levels. For reasons made obvious at the circuit level. And for reasons required by industry standards even long before the ATX standards defined it.

Carefully note every word. "minimally acceptable supply" may not be a supply dumped into the market. A supply manufacturer is not responsible for meeting those standards. The computer assembler is responsible. How many computer assemblers even know about those required functions, let alone know they are responsible for those functions existing in that assembled computer?


PSU did not damage the NIC. We have seen this often because we fix things by first identifying each damaged semiconductor. A surge incoming from AC mains, bypasses the power supply, passes through the motherboard, and exits via the NIC. What is most often damaged? The outgoing part in that path. The NIC. If a PSU took out that NIC, then it also took out all other digital semiconductors connected to that same rail (voltage).