AMD pulling ahead of Intel

[Galdorf]

Looks like with release of 3000 series AMD is pulling ahead of Intel since Intel lost China and other countries and US is in a trade war with China which is threatening to cut supplies of rare minerals and earth metals.
Intel will either have to pull a rabbit out of its hat or do some major price cutting.

 

[phaZed]

Well, this is the first time I have been excited about AMD's offerings since the pre-Bulldozer era. I've crapped on AMD's offerings fairly well over the past few years (mostly deserving)... essentially, this release is what should have been the initial release IMO.

Careful watching UFD tech.. they're full of shi* and oft wrong... take with big grains of salt.

Here's what I want to see from AMD:

No more memory timing shenanigans. fix your crap... unacceptable. Memory timing is a big deal. Wow... AMD is getting DDR4 3200MHz support... finally catching up to my old Intel 6700 from 4 years ago. I suspect that their problems come from their chiplet design (unconfirmed).

Drivers drivers drivers. AMD software sux. AMD Drivers suck. Must have LTS for their hardware. Ending support for Windows7.. and 8.1, 5 years before Windows EOL is unacceptable. All those gamers that swear by Windows 7... if you got AMD, Windows 7 or 8 isn't really an option. And that's stupid. AMD cites that 8.1 has a small user base and it's not developing drivers because of that... well, that doesn't explain why you can't simply 'mark' the driver compatible with 8/8.1 considering Windows 10 has the exact same driver subsystem..


But yeah, if things keep going well, looks like my next system (have a 7700K as my daily driver) will be an AMD. Maybe 2-3 years away for me though.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Just do a Google on 1903 and threadripper... you'll see all you need to see.

Intel has some operational issues, but AMD will never catch them in terms of support in the ecosystem. If AMD actually had two brain cells, built and maintained a proper LTS channel, and actually put effort into their drivers I'd be all over them again... but they haven't in a long time, back in the bulldozer days you could rely on VIA to trim the gap... but those days are gone. And so is the professional viability of AMD.

That said, Intel might just be squeezed on the price a bit... and that is a great thing for everyone.

 

[brandonkick]

Just do a Google on 1903 and threadripper... you'll see all you need to see.

Intel has some operational issues, but AMD will never catch them in terms of support in the ecosystem. If AMD actually had two brain cells, built and maintained a proper LTS channel, and actually put effort into their drivers I'd be all over them again... but they haven't in a long time, back in the bulldozer days you could rely on VIA to trim the gap... but those days are gone. And so is the professional viability of AMD.

That said, Intel might just be squeezed on the price a bit... and that is a great thing for everyone.

Intel will get squeezed on price for sure. Ever since Zen came out, Intel's been cutting prices and innovating a WHOLE lot more.

1903 is relatively "new" and threadripper is a specific case. I've been running a R7 1700X for about two years now. Back when I built the machine, I tried installing a (then) few month old build of Win 10. System was not stable at all. I started over and went with a new build of Win 10 (again at that time) and the system smoothed out and ran great.

I really enjoy the Zen chips and what they are offering in terms of value and what they've forced Intel to do. I will agree the memory "issues" are crap... it can be quite hard to get ram to run at 3200mhz. Alas, even as early as Zen plus those issues seemed to have gone away.

I think where these chips shine are in an environment where lots of cores / threads really help. Video editing / processing, power computing, audio work, photo work, virtual machines.

My next system may not even been Zen 2, but only because they have been forcing Intel to provide more in terms of what each new chip offers and charge less for it.

 

[Sky-Knight]

The problem with Threadripper isn't new though, it speaks of a very long standing chipset driver issue AMD has never solved properly. One of the reasons Wintel is a thing, is because Intel doesn't just produce a CPU, it fosters a platform, and then heavily invests in the ecosystem. As a result, we get Intel drivers for Intel platforms, that just work. And that driver support extends well beyond Windows OSs and into every platform known to man. If ARM supported its ecosystem like Intel did, we'd all be using those CPUs in everything.... but they don't... Which is part of the reason we don't get security updates for Android.

I don't want AMD to go away, because they are a very worthy source of competition, but the thing is... since the Barton days, they really haven't tried. I was hopeful when they absorbed ATI things would change, but ATI's chipset tech was crap... Intel then tried and failed to absorb nVidia. Which is a good thing, but it's left the market in a very strange place.

AMD is much better in purpose built platforms, tablets, game consoles, etc than Intel.
Intel owns the server room.
ARM owns the IOT.

But it's Intel, and only Intel that has the ability as a company to do all three, and yet... they don't. Probably because of anti-trust issues. Instead I'd prefer if AMD and / or ARM would build up their platforms and ecosystems and compete more consistently. Intel in those circumstances would either compete, or even potentially die.

But none of these entities are doing what they must to make this happen.

 

[Galdorf]

This....

 

[lcoughey]

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter what processor you use in most cases? Most grown ups simply use their computers to check their webmail, accounting app and run MS Office.

 

[Galdorf]

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter what processor you use in most cases? Most grown ups simply use their computers to check their webmail, accounting app and run MS Office.

If you want to have more secure processor lower ipc in business it does the new security exploits and patches for them lowering productivity 14% for Intel not to mention the Chinese dropped Intel and have deals with AMD is a huge loss for intel as China is the largest market.

Does the security issues with intel cpu matter to average user it should it would impact not only gaming but online banking and stock and cryptocurrency trading.

Zombieload

 

[14049752]

I don't want AMD to go away, because they are a very worthy source of competition, but the thing is... since the Barton days, they really haven't tried.

You think they're not trying with the Zen architecture? Have you looked at what they're doing with it? Have you looked at the support they have for Zen2 stuff? The Ryzen CPUs are amazingly good products, and not just from a budget standpoint. I've been waiting for Zen2 for a while and will probably upgrade soon, once the CPUs are available.

 

[brandonkick]

In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter what processor you use in most cases? Most grown ups simply use their computers to check their webmail, accounting app and run MS Office.

To the average end user, no it doesn't matter really.

To anyone beyond casual, office type use, it does matter. It's sorta like the people who get new cars every 12-24 months... they like what is new and exciting. The car they had before likely did the job just fine, but it's not the latest and greatest. What you can get for your dollar is amazing these days. It's also amazing what a little bit of relevant competition will do for the consumer!

 

[Sky-Knight]

You think they're not trying with the Zen architecture? Have you looked at what they're doing with it? Have you looked at the support they have for Zen2 stuff? The Ryzen CPUs are amazingly good products, and not just from a budget standpoint. I've been waiting for Zen2 for a while and will probably upgrade soon, once the CPUs are available.

No they aren't, because they still have the same crippling chipset issues they've always had, and that's going all the way back to the Athlon Classic days. AMD has never figured out how to make a decent chipset.

Today, they're approaching what they once had, but they need to be better than they've ever been to touch an Intel that's been sitting on its arse for 10 years!

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

The "only" time I liked AMD...(back in my "building custom gaming computers" days)...was when they released the XP "Palomino"...and that was when Intel had just released the first version of the Pentium 4.(was it called northwood?) .which..sucked. I also hated..hated with a passion, various "el cheapo" motherboard/chipsets for AMD...like SiS, Via, AMDs own, etc. Always pieces of runny dog poop computers had those inside, blue screen specials.

...but nVidia dabbled in a chipset for AMDs..the "nForce" chipset...and those motherboards made some good stable gaming systems with the Palomino.

...and then Intel won back the crowd once the P4 H/T came out...and they climbed back on top.

 

[ComputerRepairTech]

like SiS

 

[Sky-Knight]

@YeOldeStonecat See back then I was building VIA based systems, I knew the chipsets well, and I knew how to build a good solid box that lasted as long as a modern Optiplex generally does. nForce I despised... it's firewall welded into the NIC driver was nothing but a source of problems.

But that fragmented nightmare ecosystem where you had this almost lawless mess of competing chipsets that took hours and hours to sort through, buckets of money in testing different hardware to find a workable option... I mean it's the same crap I do today to support Untangle, but there's zero reason for guys like us to have to do that crap to support Windows.

I do not want to go back to those days, and AMD isn't showing me that they've learned anything from it. Their chipsets and drivers are still crap!

P.S. Thanks for pulling the trigger on a fresh round of nightmares over the SiS600 series chipsets... I appreciate it.

 

[brandonkick]

I really don't know what your talking about when it comes to modern AMD chips (specifically Zen, Zen +, and soon Zen 2) when it comes to chipset issues. What chipset issues?

I've been running a Zen chip for nearly two years now in my workstation. Not my gaming machine that I like to have fun with, the workstation, the one that pays the bills, funds my retirement, the mortgage, vacation, puts food on the table and keeps the lights on... if that computer goes down, it costs me a significant amount of money. I wouldn't run anything, regardless of who made it, if it were anything less than rock solid reliable. My machine has been nothing but stable (save one small run in with a decently old build of Win 10... I'm talking like close to a year before the Zen chip ever shipped) and not a single problem. My biggest gripe? My memory runs at 2933mhz instead of 3200mhz. Big, fat, whoop. The machine still runs and runs well. At any one time, I have 3-5 VM's spun up in Hyper-V and they all run smooth as glass. The machine never BSOD's, never crashes, no instability. IIRC there was one very specific issue relating to a very specific chipset and some type of SSD? I think it showed up in a Carey Holzman video (a few months ago, I don't watch much any more... he got a bit preachy and condescending...) but outside of that I don't know of all these huge chipset drivers plaguing the Zen chips. Carey himself even trashed the threadripper chips pretty good. There might be something legit there to trash on AMD for, I don't know for sure. I do know that threadripper outstanding, the new offerings seem very solid to me. I just haven't heard about these issues....

If they weren't relevant, you wouldn't have seen Intel jump like they did. AMD light a huge fire under Intel's rear. They recognized AMD's latest offerings as serious threats. Otherwise they would have kept right along with their tick-tock 2-3% performance upgrades for $400 a whack. Same old, same old.... ever so slightly faster, and another check in the bank. Now, holy smokes... you get quite the bang for your buck from Intel compared to 3 or 4 years ago!

 

[Sky-Knight]

There is a massive gulf between saying AMD is pulling ahead of Intel, and saying that AMD is finally, a decade after Intel decided to get fat and lazy, catching up enough to make Intel move again.

I'm happy to see Intel knocked off the complacency wagon, but I'm not deluded enough to think AMD is "ahead" in this game. They're approximate now, for the first time in decades... but soon enough Intel will slap them back down again. They've done it before, CONSISTENTLY SO.

If AMD wants to impress me, they need to take the lead, and STAY THERE. THEN and ONLY THEN, will I consider making the investment to deploy their product. But thus far, all I've seen is a company that subordinated itself to Intel to make x86 chips, and never bothered to cut the apron strings.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

[ nForce I despised... it's firewall welded into the NIC driver was nothing but a source of problems..

I never used that firewall option, think you needed to utilize the dual NICs with 1x as the WAN. Mine was always behind NAT so I just used a single NIC...sans that firewall.

 

[Big Jim]

No more memory timing shenanigans. fix your crap... unacceptable. Memory timing is a big deal. Wow... AMD is getting DDR4 3200MHz support... finally catching up to my old Intel 6700 from 4 years ago. I suspect that their problems come from their chiplet design (unconfirmed).

HUH ?

the latest Intel chips support 2666mhz memory, and the chip you quoted, I just checked supports 2133mhz memory

If you are talking about the speeds which can be ran on the platform then I am led to believe that AMD is actually going to be able to support 4000Mhz+

Lot of hate for AMD in this thread, not sure why to be fair. they had some catching up to do which they have (it seems) finally done, and Intel are no scrabbling around trying to come up with answers, that it seems they don't have currently, 10 core coming out soon, so what AMD is releasing a 16 core desktop chip in the near future and 12 core will be available within a month.

It sounds like a lot of the initial issues that Ryzen suffered with have been ironed out now, but I guess we won't really know if that is true until the reviews start to come out.

 

[phaZed]

HUH ?

the latest Intel chips support 2666mhz memory, and the chip you quoted, I just checked supports 2133mhz memory

Those are the specs on paper, officially from Intel, 'non-overclocked'. Memory support comes mainly from the board though, via XMP. The 6700K does indeed run 3200MHz with no issues and is supported (not my pic, but my board with the 6700K):






Intel's newest chips are running 4500MHz+:
https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...d-supports-up-to-ddr4-4600mhz-memory.3388327/

 

[brandonkick]

There is a massive gulf between saying AMD is pulling ahead of Intel, and saying that AMD is finally, a decade after Intel decided to get fat and lazy, catching up enough to make Intel move again.

I'm happy to see Intel knocked off the complacency wagon, but I'm not deluded enough to think AMD is "ahead" in this game. They're approximate now, for the first time in decades... but soon enough Intel will slap them back down again. They've done it before, CONSISTENTLY SO.

If AMD wants to impress me, they need to take the lead, and STAY THERE. THEN and ONLY THEN, will I consider making the investment to deploy their product. But thus far, all I've seen is a company that subordinated itself to Intel to make x86 chips, and never bothered to cut the apron strings.

We'll I can honestly say I never claimed, or agreed (and I'm not saying that you implied I did) that AMD was "ahead" of Intel. Just that simply they are a reasonable alternative and in some use cases a more attractive alternative. They offer a lot of value for the money, enough so that your not even "sacrificing" anything when you decide to go that route either. It's not like it matters if you only get 100 FPS vs 130 FPS (in most cases...) it's not like it matters if your video renders in 18 min vs 19:41..... the very small performance differences aren't much of an issue for most users. The fact that they are themselves a great value is the first part, but the fact that they got Intel's rear in gear is the other major win. I hope Intel does "smack them back down", and I hope that battle continues. The consumer wins when the competition is healthy. I don't care who's name is on my tee shirt or wall poster, I just care that I'm getting a good product at a good price. I've never been a "name brand" person.