Cat 5 200m

[Big Jim]

been to a customer's site today.
They have main broadband (FTTP) coming in to their house, then a cat5 (assume Cat5e) cable in ducting underground that they ran themselves 10 years ago to an outbuilding that feeds a couple of PCs.

Everything working fine for 10 years, then a few days ago the internet dropped out.
I went today, my cable verifier tells me the cable is in tact and 212m length, I cannot get a network connection though, so I went to the house and connected directly to the switch and it connected no problem.
Put a new end on the cable in the outbuilding and my laptop was now issued with an IP but not able to even ping the router.
Connection speed showing as 10mb despite being a gigabit switch.

I assume either ducting has collapsed somewhere or the cable has just degraded to the point it no longer works ?


I have suggested he try and pull another cable through (Cat 6 this time) and call me back.
however if the duct has collapsed we will need to look at wireless options.

So couple of questions
1 - what kind of lengths of runs have you guys ran successfully in the past ?
2 - is it likely to be anything else other than my diagnosis ?
3 - I have never used a P2P wifi setup before, any suggestions as to exactly what kit I need ?
I prefer Ubiquiti as I am somewhat familiar with them and I do rate them as a product, Is it the Airmax stuff I need ?

 

[nlinecomputers]

The run is twice the rated length. It’s a wonder it worked at all. Couple of airmax lite units should work just fine.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Never should have worked, shouldn't care why...

You're either replacing that run with something else that can work at that length (fiber, or airmax).

You've also got Ethernet Extenders like this: https://www.perle.com/products/10-100-1000-ethernet-extender.shtml

Which are basically DSL bridges, I've had decent luck with them too. Patton has an entire family called CopperLink that has bits that might help too.

But your most direct solution is to replace that copper with fiber and get some media converters or get some P2P wifi going.

 

[alluseridsrejected]

Can you access the halfway point and put in a switch?
I have powered ubiquiti airmax radios well over 100m of cat5e cable with gigabit speed by placing a nanoswitch (poe powered switch) at the halfway point. The longest run I have currently working is 188 meters. It has been working fine for a couple of years now. The airmax radios will not stay powered on unless I use a 1amp poe injector to power the switch.

edit: it shouldn't be much trouble to setup a wireless bridge at that distance. 5ghz nano locos can handle it easy with line of site. 2.4ghz nano locos are better if there are obstructions. Problem is, in my area the locos are in short supply right now. I have probably 30+bridges I monitor from my UISP dashboard.

 

[SAFCasper]

Never ran anything past 80-85m because past that distance I refuse to even attempt it.

Fibre in the ducting hooked up to a switch's SFP port at each end would be my ideal solution. But unless you bring in a specialist it's going to be pre-terminated cable which could be difficult to pull through ducting without getting snagged.

So yeah, probably going to be looking at PtP wifi. If you aren't too familiar take a look at broadbandbuyer.co.uk as they do pre-configured Ubiquiti kits.

 

[fincoder]

my cable verifier tells me the cable is in tact and 212m length

Maybe the verifier is giving a false reading due to a problem with the cable. What is your estimate of the distance by site or pacing?

 

[Big Jim]

I know that cable is only rated to 100m but it is known that it works past that its just not guaranteed.
and given that he ran this cable and it worked for 10 years he is happy to run another cable, worth noting also that this was not exterior sheathed cable either.
I've given him a price for the wifi route, he is going to attempt a new run of external grade CAT6 first.
I don't think Fibre would be an option as the wifi P2P option would be cheaper.

Estimate of cable length by eye approx 150m between the buildings so could quite easily be 200 when you include the runs inside the buildings and the fact that it isn't a straight run of cable either.

Google maps has it at 132m

 

[Mercenary Roadie]

I bet they ran indoor cable in that underground conduit and the moisture has finally caused it to fail. Underground conduit is considered to be a wet environment and the cable used should be rated for it. Good chance that the conduit is just fine.

 

[frase]

I use Netgear Orbi - never had issues. One main down point is they are expensive.

NETGEAR'S Mesh WiFi Network Routers + Systems

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www.netgear.com.au

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I bet they ran indoor cable in that underground conduit and the moisture has finally caused it to fail. Underground conduit is considered to be a wet environment and the cable used should be rated for it. Good chance that the conduit is just fine.

Was my immediate hunch also. If you trench/conduit under ground...must must MUST be burial grade ethernet. And if outdoors...MUST be outdoor rated. The cable jackets are different on both of those...meant to existing in environments of pressure, ice, wet, sun/UV, wide temp ranges, etc.

I've seen this approach done in some "campus area networks" (CAN)...which is what this is...multiple buildings connected. In the old days, some poor approaches were to run ethernet, beyond the 100m spec, and manually force the speeds down (managed switch)...so it would remain steady. Often in the old days it would be forced to be just a 10 meg link. This kept the errors and repeats to a minimum. If you let it try to run on "auto"....it would constantly flap around various speeds, and...try to run too fast...resulting in a very poor connection filled with errors and repeats. Because with most people, just because it "shows a link"...does not mean it's a "healthy link". People often just test with by running pings or trying to browse the web.

I've seen old phone lines (RJ11 or RJ12) be used to connect buildings via existing underground wiring....set to just 10 meg links, and it's worked...for decades. I still know one business that has that running to a neighboring building...and yup, the 10 meg link is slow, and yup I've pitched airMax quotes which is dang cheap to get a 600 meg link.

Farthest ethernet link I've agreed to let happen...I think 360 feet or 370 feet or so. Pretty sure I locked it at 100 megs...and this was over 20 years ago before I knew Ubiquiti airMax and trenching fiber simply was not going to happen at that client.

For this client....two options I'd pitch...
*Ethernet over powerline bridges....because I have a hunch there is a sub panel in the main house running electrical through underground conduit to that second building. I did this myself in our prior larger home with multiple buildings on our lot....worked great.
*airMax point to point...get a good 400-600 meg link.

 

[mmerry]

Maybe try this.

https://paigedatacom.com/gamechanger

Here is video of it being tested.

 

[Big Jim]

Good news, they tried today to pull the "pull string" and it wasn't budging.
That means we are going with the wireless bridge option.

I didn't know about underground grade cable to be fair, so thats good to know.
Its definitely standard grade cable that they used with the normal grey sheathing.

 

[Big Jim]

Can you access the halfway point and put in a switch?
I have powered ubiquiti airmax radios well over 100m of cat5e cable with gigabit speed by placing a nanoswitch (poe powered switch) at the halfway point. The longest run I have currently working is 188 meters. It has been working fine for a couple of years now. The airmax radios will not stay powered on unless I use a 1amp poe injector to power the switch.

edit: it shouldn't be much trouble to setup a wireless bridge at that distance. 5ghz nano locos can handle it easy with line of site. 2.4ghz nano locos are better if there are obstructions. Problem is, in my area the locos are in short supply right now. I have probably 30+bridges I monitor from my UISP dashboard.

Any reason not to use these over the nano locos ?

Ubiquiti NBE-5AC-GEN2 airMAX High Performance NanoBeam AC Gen2 Bridge | NetXL

The Ubiquiti NanoBeam 5AC Gen 2 directs RF energy in a tighter beam width up to a distance of 15+ Km in perfect conditions. With the focus in one direction, the NanoBeam 5AC Gen 2 blocks or spatially filters out noise, so noise immunity is improved. This feature is especially important in an...

www.netxl.com

 

[NETWizz]

I would suggest they pull some OM4 Optical fiber then on each end use either a 1000BaseSX or 10GBaseSR transceivers.

If they have more money, they could even go single-mode and use 1000BaseLX or 10GBaseLR as some economical options, but single-mode is overkill.

Regardless, Optical fiber is what should be used for this installation for the utmost robust connection.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Fiber is not the expensive stuff people think it is anymore...

4 Strand Corning Outdoor Armored OM3 Fiber Optic Assembly

Our QuickTreX Pre-Terminated Fiber Optic Assemblies are made in the USA with Corning Glass by highly trained technicians. They are individually tested and come with the test results on the label.

www.lanshack.com

4 strands of LC terminated, armored DIRECT BURIAL OM3 (no conduit needed because it's its own conduit). Is a bit more than $1500. It's not THAT much more expensive than the P2P wifi and lasts longer!

But... I'm not sure if Lanshack can get to the UK or has an equivalent. I'm not even saying not to use the wireless bridge. I'm just pointing out that preterminated fiber assemblies are not the nightmare fuel of expense they once were!

 

[SAFCasper]

Yeah pricing of fibre is reasonable these days.

Quick look at a UK supplier I can get 200m 4-core CST armoured OM3 for just over £400.

Couple of NanoBeams with mounting brackets etc are going to come in around £200-220 so it's not that big a jump in cost.

As usual the decision comes down to what your client wants/needs/can afford.

 

[alluseridsrejected]

Any reason not to use these over the nano locos ?

Ubiquiti NBE-5AC-GEN2 airMAX High Performance NanoBeam AC Gen2 Bridge | NetXL

The Ubiquiti NanoBeam 5AC Gen 2 directs RF energy in a tighter beam width up to a distance of 15+ Km in perfect conditions. With the focus in one direction, the NanoBeam 5AC Gen 2 blocks or spatially filters out noise, so noise immunity is improved. This feature is especially important in an...

www.netxl.com

They should work. More expensive and more powerful than the locos. The gen1 5ghz nanobeams were horrible and all had faulty lan ports. But I have a couple of the gen2 5ghz in use as CPEs and they have been fine. Just replaced a 2.4ghz nanobeam gen2 this week because it apparently became deaf, but have several more out there working fine. I have never had any failure in any loco.

 

[alluseridsrejected]

Couple of NanoBeams with mounting brackets...

Mounting brackets? For most situations the supplied out of the box mount is sufficient unless you need to install the radios at weird angles. That is the only time you need the optional Airmax Quick Mounts.

 

[Stever]

The cable is supplied on 100 meter reels, there will be a join in there, hopefully it will be accessible, in fact at that length there will be 3 joins, one at each end and the one of interest in the middle !
The joiner should be active, requiring power from somewhere.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Good news, they tried today to pull the "pull string" and it wasn't budging.
That means we are going with the wireless bridge option.

I didn't know about underground grade cable to be fair, so thats good to know.
Its definitely standard grade cable that they used with the normal grey sheathing.

So sounds like a wireless P2P, or ethernet over powerline, is the next "let's consider this".

airMAX - Which product should I use?

Overview This article provides some guidance on what products are ideal for different purposes. airMAX and airFiber both have different product options to cover a multitude of different outdoor wi...

help.ui.com

Go to the short distance airmax units
I'd prolly do the nanobeam AC Gen2

Yeah ethernet or fiber itself is cheap. But...trenching (digging)...dropping conduit...sealing it to each basement, weather proofing the ends, all that manual labor is the part that costs $$$. And the re-growing of grass over the lawn...lots of man hours getting that groomed back.