Wireless router causing electrical issues

['putertutor]

A few months ago I set up a customers dsl modem for them. It's a Thompson sts85 wireless. About two weeks ago I was called out again to do some other work and they begin chatting with me about electrical issue they are having with their dryer. It keeps stopping mid cycle, sometimes it won't start. They figure its their dryer and buy a new one, but the new one does the same thing.

I had some time and they are sort of friends, so I look around at the wiring, mostly as a gesture as I am certainly no electrician. But I noticed that the dryer circuit is split off into other lines, one of which is the plug I used for the dsl modem. I asked when the problem started happening and sure enough it was shortly after I installed the modem.

Now, I didn't think there was any way the modem was doing this, but just to be sure, I moved it to another plug not on the same line. I checked with them today, and they haven't had a problem since shortly after I moved it. WTF??

Anyone have any ideas about this? Like I said, I'm no electrician so I don't know what to think about this. Could that router really have fouled up the line so much that it caused the dryer issues? Even more strange is about a week ago they moved a CRT tv into that room and plugged it into the same circuit, but not the same plug and there have not been any issues. Again, WTF??

 

[NYJimbo]

A DSL router draws a tiny amount of power, much like a radio or other very small electronic appliance.

I just plugged in a Covad (NETOPIA) DSL router I used to use for my DSL service. It's drawing about 7-9 watts of power. When I plugged in a few Rj45 lines it only fluctuated slightly.

I'm pretty sure moving that router didn't affect their dryer, which has a monster draw compared to their DSL router. But if they're happy....

 

[Markverhyden]

Did you move the modem to an outlet that is on a different breaker? There is no way the dsl modem itself could cause a problem. Meaning that the max current draw on the modem is negligible. I have an issue in my apartment that is similar in a way. One breaker has my washer, the room it is in and one outlet in the kitchen. It is a 20 amp. In the room I have a MacMini server, Dell DT, and some odds and ends. In the kitchen I have a microwave and a toaster oven.

I can trip the breaker if I use the washer, microwave on high and toaster oven. Moving the appliances to a different breaker does not reproduce the problem. In my situation I'm guessing that the wire has a problem such a partial short to ground from one of the live pair.

 

['putertutor]

Yeah, it's an odd run. The circuit comes off the main breaker box down to an older fuse box with screw in fuses. From that box the garage door opener and the dryer are powered. The line to the dryer goes straight to the dryer. The garage door line runs to a junction with a hand written "220 in" and two hand written "110 out". One of the outs runs the garage door, the other go to two separate outlets, one was the original router plug, the other is where the tv is plugged in now.

I know the router pulls minimal amp or volts or ways or whatever, but given to odd wiring, could there be something at play here? It's an older house and some it the wires in question are older fabric wrapped lines.

I almost want to go back and plug the router back in and see what happens.

 

[NYJimbo]

"It keeps stopping mid cycle, sometimes it won't start."

Do you know what they had to do to get it restarted ? Is it a cool down period or flipping a breaker or something ?

If its working now its probably not worth going back to check, but I really dont think a tiny device like the DSL was the issue.

I did have a circuit in my shop which would blow a circuit if I turned on a 60 watt light bulb while running the microwave. But that was because the circuit was loaded to the limit and the 60 watt bulb took it over the limit.

If the DSL router is doing the same then this circuit is so close to overloaded it should happen again with almost anything plugged in.

But it could be that it kept happening after your moved the DSL, they finally figured out what it was and when you checked back with them later they didnt want to admit it was something else.

 

['putertutor]

With the dryer, originally they thought it was one of the many fuses inside the dryer (I think there are three). But when it started even with the new dryer, that went out the window. It was a pretty intermittent thing. Sometimes the dryer would stop mid-cycle and they could press the start button and all was ok. Other times they would go the the second fuse box, unscrew all 4 fuses (2 for dryer, 2 for garage door) and screw them back in again. They said that seemed to do the trick. But the fuses were never blown.

So a cool down would seem accurate, but given that sometimes the dryer wouldn't restart after 30+ minutes, that doesn't seem entirely accurate after all. I think I will find some excuse to head out there in a week or so and see if I can convince them to let me test out the old configuration again. Like I said, they are friends, so they'd probably be fine with that. I just don't see how it could be the router though... I wish I knew more about electrical.

 

[AlaDes]

I can almost assure you its not the router causing this problem. As a previous poster said, the circuit is probably so overloaded that anything else plugged in and powered on is going to add to the problem.

It sounds like they need to have an electrician redo the wiring for the dryer circuit. Full size driers typically operate on a 220V circuit and shouldn't have any other devices on the same circuit.

Also, their existing wiring being used for the dryer may not be the right gauge and can't handle the current (amperage) necessary to run everything on that circuit. The longer you run an electrical wire the bigger gauge (lower number is bigger) the wire must be to handle the load.

One problem I've ran into, which is similar to your friend's issue is people trying to use a 50 foot extension cord to run an air compressor. Usually, what happens is the breaker trips, the compressor just shuts off for no apparent reason and will start back in about 30 minutes (like your friend's situation), or the compressor will seem to try to turn on but will only hum instead.

Hope this helps

 

[nlinecomputers]

Dryers run on 220v. There is NO way that it is on the same circuit as your router or anything. They draw so much current that they are isolated on a circuit and breaker of there own.

If any dryer is cutting out then they need an electrician to inspect this asap before they burn there house down. They have a short or an open circuit and either can cause a fire.

Edit: as pointed out above they could also have too big a load on the system. I haven't seen house fuses in years so they must be way out of code.

 

[mr m]

If the load was too large the circuit breaker/fuse would trip/blow and that's not happening. A short would also trip the breaker. An intermittent open could cause their symptoms.

The NEC in the States calls for a 30 Amp dedicated circuit for an electric dryer. It used to be a 3, 10 guage wire circuit, 2 hot's and 1 neutral. Now they call for a 4, 10 guage wire circuit, 2 hot's, 1 neutral and 1 ground so they need that fixed before anyone should waste time troubleshooting.

It sounds like a loose wire for the dryer to just quit mid cycle. Since their your friends if you want to help them you can check for heat (caused by arcing) on the recepticle, plug or breaker? It sounds like they took one of the 110V lines and sent it elsewhere so a loose wire on any other recepticle will affect the dryer.

 

[katz]

Dryers run on 220v. There is NO way that it is on the same circuit as your router or anything. They draw so much current that they are isolated on a circuit and breaker of there own.

I thought this too, but there are 110 v models. Still, I do not see a correlation between the router & the dryer cutting out.

 

[LifelineIT]

As per the previous poster, a dryer should be absolutely on a dedicated home run, nothing AT ALL should share that run EVER, unless it's a gas dryer, but that's a different issue all together.

I'm gonna guess that they didn't use 3 conductor wire in that run, I'm gonna guess they used 2 runs of 12/2, and in some junction box, one of the legs runs off to the dryer exclusively and the other feeds both the dryer and other items. This is why stuff isn't being destroyed on 220 circuit.

This means that the dryer isn't always able to get 220v, it's able to get something less depending on load elsewhere, and/or, if it's on a GFCI (Which it should be, I believe, at least a GFCI breaker if not plug), the GFCI is tripping because of the load imbalance between the two runs.

That load imbalance could be as simple as the draw of a modem/router, or rather the modem/router is the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back as one of the 110v legs is serving other items.

Regardless, dryer needs rewired, stat.

 

[B Trevathan]

Ends of the wires

I'll bet it is the ends of the wires in the dryer circuit are corroded or if this is aluminum wiring then the ends are oxidized. Aluminum wire used to be used for appliance circuits but the wiring terminals were copper and the two metals expand and contract differently causing them too come loose.

I doubt it is an kind of real current issue. You can test to see if you're getting enough current to the small fuse panel by using the garage door opener while using the dryer. Most garage door openers have a 1/2 HP or 3/4 HP motor in them and also have lights. If the opener doesn't cause a problem then I doubt a router will either.

In the small fuse panel the dryer should be using two 30 amp fuses, the plugs should be on a 15 amp fuse and most garage door openers will be on a 15 or 20 amp fuse.

You want your fuses to be the weakest part of a circuit, say for example if you have a 15 amp outlet and a 15 amp (#14 AWG) wire in the walls you wouldn't want a 20 amp fuse you would want a 15 amp fuse.

All new dryer circuits (in homes built or remodeled after 1996) need to be a four wire circuit (two 120V wires, one neutral wire and a ground wire), lots of older dryers used a three wire circuit (two 120V wires and one neutral wire). The wires are normally 30 Amp (#10 AWG) wires.

A 240V junction box with two 120V lines (circuits) coming out, I would guess that the two 120V lines are using the same neutral wire and also the same ground wire, that is if this older wiring has a ground. Two different circuits should not be sharing neutral wires or ground wires.

Garage door openers should be on a circuit by themselves and with a time delayed fuse because of the motors.

The two outlets should NOT be on a time delayed fuse, but I'm guessing that they are though.

In the fuse box are the neutral wires and the ground wires all on one bar? It is best to have two different bars, one for all the neutrals and one for all the grounds.

The older cloth wrapped electrical wires, that is problems just waiting to happen.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Strongly refer them to an electrician. We can all sit here taking guesses all day long.....and whatever we come up with, the "fix" should not fall on you....it should fall on a qualified electrician.

You mention the line with the dryer is "split"..to another outlet? Like others said. Even if it's just a little stackable condo unit small dryer that is 110...which I'm guessing it is since you mention it's split. You don't want sensitive electronics on the same circuit as heavy hitters like that....the life of the sensitive little units (such as the router) will be very short. Dips and brown outs and tiny spikes that surge protectors will NOT protect against will cook that. And you end up with people complaining that the router only lasted a year or two...and they go and blame that brand or something.

My guess is...since you mention it's a shared circuit...the lazy electricians that did the wiring when the place was built used the quick deploy "stab" units...and the solid wired is poorly stuck into the back of the outlet...it does not have good contact. And loads from things plugged into that outlet are just enough to cause some issues that backfeed up to devices on the rest of the circuit. (you'd be amazed at what the connections of poorly backstabbed outlets look like after a few years of use..and you'll be thinking how things didn't catch on fire).

 

['putertutor]

They've had an electrician over, who put a meter on the circuit and declared "must be the dryer". At any rate, I have walked away from the issue. I moved the router mostly as a courtesy, because like most of you, I simply couldn't see it being the source of the problem. I have arranged an invite over in about a week and will see how things are going, and if all is well I may just try to move it back to see what happens.

@stonecat: it is a 220 circuit, two of them coming out of that fuse box. The one to the dryer is a straight run. The one to the garage door gets broken up into a 110 to the garage door and two 110 plugs. It's an odd setup to be sure, but if I knew anything about electrical I'd point to the fuse box as that's oddest part for me.

Anyway, this is clearly outside my scope, but I thought it was a curious problem. If I do get the router plugged back into the old spot and the problems reappear, then I don't know what I will do other than suggest a different electrician.

 

['putertutor]

Update - for what its worth

I went back onsite this weekend. Here's what I found. First the dryer line is somewhat isolated. It runs straight from the dryer to a fuse box (not a breaker box). The kind with the old screw in fuses. From that fuse box, two runs come out, one for the dryer, and another for a couple of outlets and the garage door opener. Everything that leaves the fuse box is 220 - the dryer run stays 220, but the other run gets split out to a couple of 110 lines at a junction box before it hits the garage door or outlets. The fuse box gets its power from a single line out of the main breaker box - this is where I am placing my money as the problem.

I was there for a while so we plugged the router back in to the old plug (one of the above outlets) and tried the dryer out. The first test, dryer stopped 10 minutes in. No fuses blown, no breakers thrown. Try it a few more times, only one of which went without issue. Move the router, no issues after 5 dryer runs. Ok. Lets see what else happens with this outlet. Boombox = fail. Rechargeable battery dock = fail. Night light = fail. Don't know what;'s happening, but the outlet seems to be wreaking havoc on the dryer somehow.

I wish I had better gear to run more tests on the line, but there is something odd going on here. He is calling and electrician today to get rid of the fuse box and run the dryer with a new line/new breaker and the outlets as well. Weird.