Windows EULA on Windows Upgrades

[Damien Downes]

I do them weekly and have done for years. I normally backup with Fab’s then wipe the machine and type the key. If it has a problem at that point in the setup I remove the key and hit next and select whichever version matches the key. Then inside the OS input the key and it works everytime. Even using old keys off decommissioned machines on new hardware works everytime. Weirdly lax of MS but makes life easy on my end... until windows 10 decides to play Russian roulette with its updates but that’s a seperate issue haha

(( Note from Bryce: Split this from another thread. ))

 

[River Valley Computer]

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Even using old keys off decommissioned machines on new hardware works everytime.

I would not recommend you do this on a regular basis - according to MS EULA, the license for a windows OS is not to be used on another machine. BE CAREFUL!

 

[Sky-Knight]

I do them weekly and have done for years. I normally backup with Fab’s then wipe the machine and type the key. If it has a problem at that point in the setup I remove the key and hit next and select whichever version matches the key. Then inside the OS input the key and it works everytime. Even using old keys off decommissioned machines on new hardware works everytime. Weirdly lax of MS but makes life easy on my end... until windows 10 decides to play Russian roulette with its updates but that’s a seperate issue haha

And we've found the guy that violates the EULA and doesn't care...

Upgrades use the license that's there, what you're doing invalidates the license, prevents the proper upgrade, and then you're falling back to moving a license that isn't proper to make it work.

You can avoid the license violation by simply running setup.exe on the install, letting the system upgrade, and then N&P without the key afterward. This path means the machine's license is properly upgraded, and you never changed the license so you're never liable for license issues should the crop up later. You're not likely to get caught unless you're doing this thousands of times... but that doesn't make your process "legal".

 

[britechguy]

And we've found the guy that violates the EULA and doesn't care...

First, I am not, in any way, endorsing violating any EULA.

That being said:

1. He's not "the guy," but one of likely millions who have never read the EULA or have tried to and found it so dense as to be incomprehensible.

2. Not that one should intentionally violate an EULA, ever, but Microsoft is the one that should be policing this. You can be certain there will be millions of users doing this without any malign intent and in complete ignorance. If Microsoft does not want this to work, then they definitely are responsible for putting something into their authentication process that prevents it from working.

There are those who argue, and it's a not completely outrageous argument, that doing in-place upgrades via the Microsoft prescribed method post the announced drop-dead date in 2016 violates licensing. I am not one who endorses that position since it is completely within Microsoft's ability to have stopped this method from working, and they have not chosen to do so heading into five years later.

When "the police" look the other way . . .

Silence on the part of the licensing entity, and allowing something to activate, goes beyond "tacit approval," with regard to upgrading the same machine, via the prescribed method. [And, yes, I know that's a completely different thing than using a key from one piece of hardware to license another. But the general policing issue still falls squarely back in Microsoft's lap if they really want to prevent something.]

 

[River Valley Computer]

First, I am not, in any way, endorsing violating any EULA.

Silence on the part of the licensing entity, and allowing something to activate, goes beyond "tacit approval," with regard to upgrading the same machine, via the prescribed method. [And, yes, I know that's a completely different thing than using a key from one piece of hardware to license another. But the general policing issue still falls squarely back in Microsoft's lap if they really want to prevent something.]

So........if you speed down the road posted at 55 MPH and you do 80 MPH it's OK because there are no police around to catch you. OK - Got it!!!!

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy Yeah that argument is old, tired, and legally proven wrong.

When we become Microsoft partners, we take the burden of acting in good faith upon ourselves. If you aren't a Microsoft partner servicing Microsoft products... well that's another level of incompetence on display. It's like being a plumber without bond... sure you might do good work, but the customer has no protection.

Now, Microsoft has made their licensing an incomprehensible mess, so I'll give anyone the benefit of the doubt for not knowing. But there are precisely zero Microsoft Partners, that have worked in this industry long enough to call themselves professional that don't know you can't move an OEM license from one machine to another.

And I don't want Microsoft to have to enforce all this themselves, because that will mean show stopping DRM none of us wants to deal with. The above procedure is operating in bad faith. Will anyone be hurt by it? Probably not, but it's still bad faith.

Using the expired free upgrade that has long since been expired is about as grey as I'll get on this topic. And that's only because I've been through an audit, and Microsoft's auditors accepted Windows 7 OEM stickers, and Windows 8/8.1 license keys pulled from BIOS's as Windows 10 licenses of appropriate level. Though I will admit, they're being strangely velvet gloved on this point... It's very out of character for them.

For the rest, well any business in "trouble" can just buy M365 Business Premium and stick a fork in it, because it licenses just about everything.

 

[Damien Downes]

And we've found the guy that violates the EULA and doesn't care...

Upgrades use the license that's there, what you're doing invalidates the license, prevents the proper upgrade, and then you're falling back to moving a license that isn't proper to make it work.

You can avoid the license violation by simply running setup.exe on the install, letting the system upgrade, and then N&P without the key afterward. This path means the machine's license is properly upgraded, and you never changed the license so you're never liable for license issues should the crop up later. You're not likely to get caught unless you're doing this thousands of times... but that doesn't make your process "legal".

Sorry for the misunderstanding I was merely saying that this process is a viable process and pointing out how lax the security is from Microsoft. I mean really the whole topic here was to discuss this path to licensing and upgrading that is still running but could stop at any point. Microsoft stated either falsely or to try to move people on mass to windows 10 quickly that it was a time limited service. This clearly isn’t the case but they have been quiet on any details about the program closure. Could one argue that the mere act of still using this upgrade path after the said closure date is against the EULA?

I use the “upgrade” process weekly to move people with legit licenses up. However the process of wiping a machine and installing a fresh copy on that same machine with a valid license for that machine is not a violation of any EULA. It sends the original legit key to Microsoft and they reissue “upgrade” that key to a digital key and the license is applied correctly.

I’m sorry if my original answer was misleading but perhaps asking for clarification would have been better.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@Damien Downes That's fair, and you're correct. There's a bucket of speculation out there but I think Microsoft "ended" the free upgrade thanks to HP and Dell complaining. But if they really wanted it ended they'd stop upgrading keys, and they certainly haven't stopped that.

Also, as I said before I've survived an audit with these old licenses.

So I'm left wondering if Microsoft actually can close that door, but then again if you're going down that rabbit hole... you're in the space of wondering if they even want to. Forbes said back in 2016 the giveaway had already cost Microsoft $1.5 Billion in revenue.

But if they didn't give it away, would we have had machines upgrade like we did? I'm wondering if Android being "free" is finally eating into the market's willingness to bear the cost of $100 for a Windows OS. If that's true, the free upgrade might have just been a brilliant ploy to get away with soaking the market for a while longer...

Time will tell, in the meantime you're right the upgrades do still work! Windows 10 20H2 will accept Windows 7 and Windows 8 keys and upgrade to the appropriate version.

 

[britechguy]

You know, I am entirely over the snotty responses to my assertions, that will never change, that it is ultimately up to Microsoft (or whatever licensing entity) to enforce their own licensing rules programatically. It's not anywhere near to impossible to do.

And @River Valley Computer, don't let the central point fly over your head any faster than it did. I'll repeat again: There are those who argue that using the in-place upgrade method from Windows 7/8/8.1 to Windows 10, after the date that Microsoft said the "offer was closed," are committing a licensing violation. I want to see you give a coherent argument why that would be true, as I don't think one can be made. So long as I present a Windows 7/8/8.1 system to Microsoft, using either the ISO, external media, or the Update Assistant on the Windows 10 update page, and they allow the process to go through, it's legal. It is not up to me to figure out whether it is legal or not in that situation, which I clearly separated out from direct violation of EULA by supplying another machine's license key to activate on any machine other than the one on which the original Windows 7/8/8.1 license had been activated (unless it was a retail license, and let's not get into all those details).

It is not, and never will be, up to me as a technician to do anything other than use a method prescribed by Microsoft to present a Windows 7/8/8.1 to them for a free upgrade. So long as they upgrade it, my due diligence is well and truly done, as they can "flip a switch" and stop this tomorrow if they so choose. I am not going to try to re-read the pages and pages of stuff presented when you get to the screen and have a checkbox for, "I've read and agree to the terms," each and every time I run an in-place upgrade. No reasonable person would ever do so, either. If they've stuck something in there, somewhere, to the effect that this method is no longer legal after July 31, 2016, but still let it run through to completion, that's on them, not me. And I'd be willing to bet a substantial sum of money that such has never been added, since all they'd have to do to stop this is "flip that switch."

 

[britechguy]

If you aren't a Microsoft partner servicing Microsoft products... well that's another level of incompetence on display. It's like being a plumber without bond... sure you might do good work, but the customer has no protection.

I am not, nor will I ever be, a Microsoft Partner. I have no reason to be a Microsoft Partner, as I sell absolutely nothing directly other than my services.

If you think that anyone out there who services the millions upon millions of Windows machines out there who's not a Microsoft Partner is incompetent, well, you are way more than welcome to hold that opinion. I doubt you'll find many techs who share it.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy You didn't even register? You're leaving money on the table. It doesn't cost a thing.

 

[Damien Downes]

@britechguy You didn't even register? You're leaving money on the table. It doesn't cost a thing.

On that note I have registered and have found nothing of value there. Am I missing something?! I want to be able to sell all Microsoft products and it refers me to other Microsoft distributors. Forgive my ignorance but what is it that you get out of it that you don’t get just by selling your services as we all do?

I’m not attacking just curious as I’ve found little difference in being a partner versus not.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight,

I say the following with no disrespect, rancor, or snark. But your way is not the only way, and many things you consider essential or helpful others do not.

I cannot imagine, for even one second, why I'd want to be a Microsoft Partner. Because I have not registered, I cannot be as definitive as @Damien Downes is in his opinion. But I have seen a number of credentials and "relationship arrangements" other than this one that I also believe provide no significant advantage, or an advantage at all, to me.

If you can provide your rationale, perhaps it would persuade me, perhaps it would not. But an assertion never persuades me without additional information.

 

[River Valley Computer]

I'm sorry @britechguy that I can not respond to you with the flowery words and run-on sentences as you do, but I DO know for sure that per the EULA it is not permitted to use product keys from one computer on another totally different computer.

We have been a Microsoft Partner for years and we try our best to meet our commitment to them. While we don't always like their policies we agreed to comply with them. We, as seasoned professionals, need to point out to the less experienced what is correct - either contractually or ethically. Not to see how we can 'bet the system'. We, as @Sky-Night has, also survived a MS audit with flying colors.

 

[britechguy]

. . . I DO know for sure that per the EULA it is not permitted to use product keys from one computer on another totally different computer.

And if you can find a single place where I have claimed, or even implied that it is, then please do. Never stated, nor implied that it was.

 

[Sky-Knight]

On that note I have registered and have found nothing of value there. Am I missing something?! I want to be able to sell all Microsoft products and it refers me to other Microsoft distributors. Forgive my ignorance but what is it that you get out of it that you don’t get just by selling your services as we all do?

I’m not attacking just curious as I’ve found little difference in being a partner versus not.

Access to support, the Action Pack, and the occasional lead. I can't run my business without an Action Pack. But were I residential only, I suppose all that software to experiment with has minimal value.

 

[trevm999]

For the rest, well any business in "trouble" can just buy M365 Business Premium and stick a fork in it, because it licenses just about everything.

I don't see how Windows 10 Pro upgrade rights help when the original issue is the base OS licence.

 

[Sky-Knight]

I don't see how Windows 10 Pro upgrade rights help when the original issue is the base OS licence.

Nor should you, but I know from first hand audit experience Microsoft doesn't care about the desktop OS licensing anymore if you have those. The same thing happens if you have volume licensing.

But yeah, it's supposed to "upgrade" just about any other Windows license. But that original license is supposed to be retail or OEM to get started, just like the volume license "upgrades". Microsoft just doesn't seem to care.

That mess is why I think Microsoft is playing games with all of this to keep the tier 1 OEMs happy.

 

[NJW]

If you aren't a Microsoft partner servicing Microsoft products... well that's another level of incompetence on display.

Wow, that jumped the shark. Do you only go to a dealer to get your car serviced? Never have a third-party in to service or repair home appliances?

It's like being a plumber without bond... sure you might do good work, but the customer has no protection.

It really isn't. It's like being someone who services Microsoft products without being an MS partner, that's all.

Access to support, the Action Pack, and the occasional lead. I can't run my business without an Action Pack. But were I residential only, I suppose all that software to experiment with has minimal value.

I, along with many on here, am essentially residential only. I think I provide a good, honest service and so do my repeat clients, I imagine. I see absolutely no value in becoming a Microsoft partner. You clearly do see value there, which is fine – but don't presume to tell me what I should be doing with your blanket, absolute statements.

 

[Damien Downes]

Yup I’ve logged in to the Microsoft Partner portal and again see no real value. The Action Pack requires a paid subscription so it’s not included also as previously stated.

The presumption that a tech who decides not to jump through Microsoft’s hoops for certification is somehow incompetent is also offensive. I’m also not a certified Apple Genius but I’ve fixed more than enough Apple products that were beyond their abilities too. Just because a certification program exists doesn’t make it the only way to learn or provide great service to a customer. Simply the way that people who like to follow instead of explore find their way. This is fine but not for everybody.

My previous statements were to point out how Microsoft clearly doesn’t care or has poorly implemented the checks on its upgrade licensing system. I’m not advocating transferring OEM licenses or anything of the sort. I’m simply saying that through experimentation these are the holes I’ve found. I found it interesting and thought I’d share with other techs on a tech forum. I didn’t realise it was the church of Microsoft.