Two computers in a small business. The Windows 10 one went down first, non-bootable, windows tried to self-repair the problem and can't. Second computer running Windows 7 is now doing the exact same thing. Tested PSU of first one and it is fine, but the motherboard up and died completely yesterday. Dead as a doornail. The business is being run out of a 5th wheel behind a mobile home; power comes from the house. The second computer that took a little longer to get messed up in on a UPS, (first one was not on a UPS). They claim power is stable but my gut says they are getting cuts or surges. I can't see any other explanation for this--seems too coincidental. What say you?
Two computers failing - power issue
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Sky-Knight
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On a UPS means nothing if you don't know what that UPS is. Most cheap units are of a standby topology, and those units do not filter power, and do not absorb the sorts of shocks that damage power supplies.
The Windows 7 unit is due for a drive fault, the younger unit could have just had a bad board... all of this CAN happen. But my gut agrees with yours, bad power.
The Windows 7 unit is due for a drive fault, the younger unit could have just had a bad board... all of this CAN happen. But my gut agrees with yours, bad power.
They are different models, and I'd say it's not drive fault because they have SSDs I just put in like a year ago.
Sky-Knight
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SSDs are even more prone to fault in bad power situations... that's only adding evidence to the bad power idea.
Any chance you can get the makes and models of those UPSs?
Any chance you can get the makes and models of those UPSs?
MichaelBits
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If the outlets aren't properly grounded, the UPS likely won't provide surge protection if it has it.
phaZed
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I would bet 1 of 2 things, or both:
1. Poor ground
2. Their electrical drop from the house is not large enough ie. the voltage drop is too large.
1. Poor ground
2. Their electrical drop from the house is not large enough ie. the voltage drop is too large.
These people are on a shoestring; it's your basic APC 600VA.
Power problems would also point to the mobo suddenly going belly up along with everything else, no?
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Sky-Knight
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Yes, and I don't think APC makes a 600va that's line interactive...
I hate those standby UPSs, they simply do not protect equipment but they make people think they are protected. All they're good for is a bit of power during a power failure to save your work. They literally do nothing else beyond that, and offer substantially less protection against power issues than a surge strip for the trade.
Oh, and you can't test them automatically... so you find out the battery is dead when the power goes out.
I hate those standby UPSs, they simply do not protect equipment but they make people think they are protected. All they're good for is a bit of power during a power failure to save your work. They literally do nothing else beyond that, and offer substantially less protection against power issues than a surge strip for the trade.
Oh, and you can't test them automatically... so you find out the battery is dead when the power goes out.
Markverhyden
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I know money's always tight for everyone. But this tool is indispensable for AC power problems.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Outlet-Tester-with-GFCI-OTG-102R/206029151
I learned decades ago that improper grounding can cause problems with many IC type electronics. Specific to this I've seen sites where computer's failed onsite but worked elsewhere. Other sites caused intermittent problems.
A fifth wheel? Doubt it's properly grounded. Any bare metal stake with a copper run to the chassis should take care of that as long as the power source is also grounded in a similar way.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-Outlet-Tester-with-GFCI-OTG-102R/206029151
I learned decades ago that improper grounding can cause problems with many IC type electronics. Specific to this I've seen sites where computer's failed onsite but worked elsewhere. Other sites caused intermittent problems.
A fifth wheel? Doubt it's properly grounded. Any bare metal stake with a copper run to the chassis should take care of that as long as the power source is also grounded in a similar way.
Sky-Knight
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Nothing is more expensive than doing it wrong the first time...
Markverhyden
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Tell that to an accountant......
Sky-Knight
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I have, several times in fact. My best clients used to be accountants...
They literally all died... I used to have 20-30 of them, all nearing retirement and over a period of about 10 years, splat. Now I work for no accountants...
They literally all died... I used to have 20-30 of them, all nearing retirement and over a period of about 10 years, splat. Now I work for no accountants...
sapphirescales
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I hate accountant clients. They're always cheapwads. They'll spend tons of money on their software, but expect to run it on a $150 refurb and have no problems for 10 years.
I have a couple of "okay" accounting clients, but even they're cheap when it comes to hardware. I just had one last week that refused a solid state drive upgrade. I'm thinking about charging MORE to redo a computer with a hard drive. It just takes so damned long to reload everything on these slow spinners that I end up spending twice as much time messing with it. And to add insult to injury, I end up getting paid less!
Sky-Knight
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@sapphirescales Honestly, you just shocked me... You AREN'T charging more labor for a platter reload? I am... That's a final nail in the cheepo coffin. They can pay me for the drive and the rebuild, or they can pay me for the drive and the rebuild and not get the drive... there is no other path forward. I'd rather lose the business than muck about getting Win10 running on a platter!
Seriously, SSD install off USB for Win10 takes 15min, 15-30 more and it's patched and ready to go. Doing that on a platter takes 2-3 HOURS. People need to know that, and pay for that crap!
Seriously, SSD install off USB for Win10 takes 15min, 15-30 more and it's patched and ready to go. Doing that on a platter takes 2-3 HOURS. People need to know that, and pay for that crap!
sapphirescales
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Honestly it happens so rarely that it's not something I worry about. Usually the cheapwads are scared away by my regular pricing, but sometimes you get some a$$hole that would rather save a few bucks when they're already spending $300 to $400 and live with a slow a$$ computer. When this happens I install an SSD anyway, set everything up, then image it to a spinner. It's freaking faster doing it that way than using the spinner when setting stuff up.
I don't even ask whether they want a hard drive or an SSD anymore unless they have a ton of data. Had a client in here the other day with 1.5TB of data on the laptop. I quoted a 2TB SSD and they got spooked, so I lowered the quote for a 2TB spinner and they agreed. I suggested that they could also go with a smaller SSD and an external hard drive, but they weren't interested in that option.
On the other hand I also got in a lady that wanted "a lot" of storage space on her MacBook Pro. She had 3 MacBook Pro's that she'd gotten from Apple and replaced each time because they ran out of space. One was a 128GB, the other a 256GB, and the other one was also a 256GB. All 3 were filled up. I quoted her $1,800 to get her into a 2010 MacBook Pro (15" i7) with a 2TB SSD and all her data transferred and she agreed. She also let me keep her old MacBook Pro's (a 2017 touchbar, 2015 retina, and 2012 unibody). This is the type of client that's my bread-and-butter. I was $1,800 and could get her out of here next day, whereas Apple wanted like $3,500+ for a new MacBook with 2TB and she'd have to order it and wait 3 weeks. I've also got 3x MacBooks worth $1,200, $800, and $400 respectively. That's $4,200 from ONE client.
HCHTech
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Nice. I'm stealing this idea, just so you know.
I've only had a single reload on a spinning disk in recent memory and it was like torture, yet we did it every day before SSDs and thought nothing of it.
ComputerRepairTech
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Thats not entirely true though is it? You probably have more knowledge of UPSs than me but since voltage drops are far more common than surges doesnt the UPS offer more protection against power issues?
Not true at all. In fact a surge strip can only take a hit or two and it becomes useless where a UPS will continue to filter for years even if their batteries go bad.
Sky-Knight
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If the UPS is line interactive, standby UPS's are just cheap surge strips with an outlet tied to a charging system, and an inverter wired into a transfer switch. The critical fault here is the inverter will not energize until the switch is thrown, and it takes time to power up. So your low power state makes it to the equipment before the inverter charges. This casts even more dirty power as the switch ages, resulting in more damage to equipment. And to be clear here, I'm not talking about the "filter" they put in a surge strip, and listed in the standby documentation. I my experience those things have minimal use.
@ComputerRepairTech, It's all about the topology. APC has documentation for you: https://www.apc.com/salestools/SADE-5TNM3Y/SADE-5TNM3Y_R7_EN.pdf
I sell exclusively line interactive UPSs. If I see a standby in the field, I rip it out. They do nothing but risk equipment. You need a filter in bad power situations. And that means line interactive for most of us. There are other options of course, the white paper I just linked goes through it all. But those are HUGE and EXPENSIVE. Line interactive is the least expensive option here.
Line Interactive systems function like the power systems for a laptop. Gear attached to he UPS is always running on the inverter. What changes is simply when the charging system is topping up the batteries. So when the power event happens, the UPS absorbs it. If you've got a line interactive UPS, you've got an electrical wall that's absorbing the damage for you. And yes these things can last decades. But, beware, they shouldn't be in use more than 10 years. While they appear to work, the sensors and switches lose sensitivity with time. They can also test batteries while live to alert you before a power fault, and generally do everything we expect from a UPS.
@TechLady If you look at the white paper I linked, the least expensive option you can consider in that environment from APC is going to be a APC Smart-UPS. Nothing branded Back-UPS is going to cut it. As to which to use... I'd like to know how close together the machines are. Because if they are in the same area, a single larger UPS might do the job. Or, they can hire an electrician to fix the facility, the latter is honestly cheaper over time.
APC's new Li-Ion systems are pretty sweet too, expensive but the batteries are warranted for five years, so basically replacement battery cost is built in. I haven't had one go bad yet, but my rep at APC assures me they have next day delivery on replacement packs should I need them.
But, I don't think I'd trust a lithium battery in a bad power area... those packs can get hot, and a 2000 degree lithium fire inside a home isn't my idea of a good time. These things are brand new... so I'm only using them as secondary loads for now.
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sapphirescales
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Nice. I'm stealing this idea, just so you know.
With one difference - we weren't using Windows 10. Doing a reload with Windows 7 is a breeze on a hard drive. Yeah, the updates suck, but you can just send the computer out the door in its virgin state and let the updates take care of themselves. Windows 7 is barely faster at all with a hard drive vs. an SSD. Windows 10 performs like dog sh*t on a hard drive. That's the difference.
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