Thoughts on Hard Disk duplicators?

[MobileTechie]

the people posting on this thread know less about it than you oldfart. You need to ask somewhere else. Sounds like you want a disk imager and some will indeed image disks which a bios cannot see.

 

[14049752]

Sounds like you want a disk imager and some will indeed image disks which a bios cannot see.

Can you explain how? Modern drives have the controller built in to the pcb. To communicate with the drive, that controller needs to be operational...which means that it would be detected at the bios level (that's not to say it's readable and usable).

I'm genuinely curious to know how I'm supposedly wrong about this.


Edit: Oh, and I'm aware of recovery on a drive with firmware issues, like some of those Seagates a while back. Firmware issues aside, which are extremely rare, how would a drive be recoverable if it can't be detected at the bios level? The bios is only communicating with the PCB on the board which is what is actually controlling the drive...

 

[Corbin]

I got ahold of a pal that's still there he said after I left they got rid of it cux no one knew how to use it lol. But he said they did get this one

Aleratec HDD Copy Cruiser Mini 350107

It only reads sata drives but it does work like a charm, I may pick one up as soon as I play with theirs, iv been wanting one for a while but my accountant (my wife) says I need a reason before I do so.

 

[anonymous Mac Tech]

USB is probably the worst interface to try to read a faulty hard disk through.

I'm going to disagree here. I've had quite a bit of success with many drives that plenty of others thought were unrecoverable. A few times times I've had better luck using USB over my previously preferred methods of firewire or SATA connections. Did one just last week on a 120GB SATA 2.5" drive that took me nearly full week to clone. The progress running making the clone was literally a 100th of percentage per hour. But it was consistent and finished when a few days earlier I was considering pulling the plug to see what I would've gotten without finishing. The cloned finally finished and then took another half day of untangling a seriously corrupted directory structure, but in the end I recoverd all 48 GB of data and the computer looked like the original drive had never died in the first place (orignal apps launching and no data corruption).

how would a drive be recoverable if it can't be detected at the bios level?

I'm still waiting for this response to the question. Should be interesting...

 

[vdub12]

Why?

In fairness I posted the USB duplicator in response to your original question as it was posted. I've cloned many a faulty hard drive via a USB adapter, a sector copy is a slow process so it doesn't need a high-speed interface.

I agree USB works great for transferring data off an old drive.

That's how I see it, it's quite alarming how many 'techs' on here cannot differentiate between the BIOS and the operating system. I guess some things have top be learned, you can't glean them from the simple experience of working on Aunty's computer.

From my experience a drive detecting in the BIOS but not in the OS is a corrupted partition and can many times be fixed.

the people posting on this thread know less about it than you oldfart. You need to ask somewhere else. Sounds like you want a disk imager and some will indeed image disks which a bios cannot see.

This is completely false. If the BIOS can't see it what do you think the disk imager uses, a BIOS. If the drive cannot physically be detected a disk imager is not going to have any better luck.

If the controller is bad the drive might as well not be spinning because no data is coming off and if you know of a product that can magically bypass a controller then you better let us all know because we could make a lot of money off of that.

I'm still waiting for this response to the question. Should be interesting...

Ditto.............

 

[0ldfart]

I got ahold of a pal that's still there he said after I left they got rid of it cux no one knew how to use it lol. But he said they did get this one

Aleratec HDD Copy Cruiser Mini 350107

It only reads sata drives but it does work like a charm, I may pick one up as soon as I play with theirs, iv been wanting one for a while but my accountant (my wife) says I need a reason before I do so.

Thanks - much appreciated - will look into it

 

[iptech]

the people posting on this thread know less about it than you oldfart. You need to ask somewhere else. Sounds like you want a disk imager and some will indeed image disks which a bios cannot see.

Yes, please take this somewhere else, it's going to go nowhere here.

Confirmation BIAS FTW.

 

[0ldfart]

Yes, please take this somewhere else, it's going to go nowhere here.

Confirmation BIAS FTW.

With people who insist on trolling and flaming, thats the inevitable consequence. Im pretty sure no one here appreciates the type of contribution you're making to the thread, so please feel free to take your posts somewhere else. They not wanted here.

 

[vdub12]

With people who insist on trolling and flaming, thats the inevitable consequence. Im pretty sure no one here appreciates the type of contribution you're making to the thread, so please feel free to take your posts somewhere else. They not wanted here.

Well honestly I don't see how hes wrong.

the people posting on this thread know less about it than you oldfart. You need to ask somewhere else. Sounds like you want a disk imager and some will indeed image disks which a bios cannot see.

Basically MobileTechie said no one replying on this tread knew what they where talking about. Personally if he thinks we are all idiots then I want to know more about this magical disk duplicator.

 

[0ldfart]

Well honestly I don't see how hes wrong.

First comment I was referring to was just a straight-out personal attack.

Second comment was to take the thread elsewhere.

Both posts total crap. I dont know why you're weighing in on the argument, but whatever. If you think just outright insulting people is fair and reasonable, thats up to you.

Basically MobileTechie said no one replying on this tread knew what they where talking about. Personally if he thinks we are all idiots then I want to know more about this magical disk duplicator.

Look, just to clear the air:

1. I never said I know more about anything than anyone. Obviously if someone asks the question its because they want to learn from others experience. I put up a reasonable question expecting reasonable discussion about the question. What its turned into is something else entirely. No idea why ip~ decided to start slagging me. Ive never had any issue with him before. Maybe he's just having a bad day, but in any case it was un-called for.

2. I never made any assertion about disk duplicators being 'magical'. FFS, I just asked if anyone had used them and what they thought about the idea, specifically in regard to recommendations. (see the first post)

It seems that people want to get into the nuances of other forms of data recovery, which is actually not a bad thing, and if anything interesting comes from it then great, we all learn something. However, just perpetuating an argument isnt going to make for enlightening reading for anyone. Time to put that to rest now.

3. If anyone would like to reply to the original question, please do. I would be happy to discuss with anyone who's interested in a civilised discussion about the topic proposed in the first post. For any other subjects, please start a new thread.

Thanks.

 

[vdub12]

First comment I was referring to was just a straight-out personal attack.

Second comment was to take the thread elsewhere.

Both posts total crap. I dont know why you're weighing in on the argument, but whatever. If you think just outright insulting people is fair and reasonable, thats up to you.



Look, just to clear the air:

1. I never said I know more about anything than anyone. Obviously if someone asks the question its because they want to learn from others experience. I put up a reasonable question expecting reasonable discussion about the question. What its turned into is something else entirely. No idea why ip~ decided to start slagging me. Ive never had any issue with him before. Maybe he's just having a bad day, but in any case it was un-called for.

2. I never made any assertion about disk duplicators being 'magical'. FFS, I just asked if anyone had used them and what they thought about the idea, specifically in regard to recommendations. (see the first post)

It seems that people want to get into the nuances of other forms of data recovery, which is actually not a bad thing, and if anything interesting comes from it then great, we all learn something. However, just perpetuating an argument isnt going to make for enlightening reading for anyone. Time to put that to rest now.

3. If anyone would like to reply to the original question, please do. I would be happy to discuss with anyone who's interested in a civilised discussion about the topic proposed in the first post. For any other subjects, please start a new thread.

Thanks.

OK I don't see how you can sit here and think that we are just being bullies.

Whatever, think what you want. In regards to learning something this thread started out that way until people started claiming we where idiots. Like I said think whatever you want.

 

[0ldfart]

OK I don't see how you can sit here and think that we are just being bullies.

Read the post again. Thats not what I said.

Whatever, think what you want. In regards to learning something this thread started out that way until people started claiming we where idiots.

No one said that either. You seem to have taken personally what looked to me like a casual comment.

Please lets move on now.

 

[ComputerClinic]

It sounds like you want to take your data recovery skills to the next level. I don't know sh*t about this but I've been researching a little myself. Apparently, there's a three step process for data recovery, and most techs skip the first two and go straight to the third (data recovery software such as GetDataBack).

From what I've read, I don't think a drive duplicator will do you much good unless you can actually repair the disk first. First repair the disk (apparently 60-70% of the time its firmware, even if the drive is clicking. Firmware can cause that I guess. But you may need to physically fix the disk). Second, duplicate the drive using one of the devices you described in the OP. Third, use data recovery software to retrieve the data.

Skip the first two steps and you decrease the chance of successful data recovery. Here are some links with more info:

http://www.hdd.ji2.com/

http://www.deepspar.com/

http://atola.com/


http://www.hddoctor.net/

The 3 step process I explained earlier:
http://www.deepspar.com/3d-data-recovery-overview.html

 

[iptech]

Yes, please take this somewhere else, it's going to go nowhere here.

Confirmation BIAS FTW.

With people who insist on trolling and flaming, thats the inevitable consequence. Im pretty sure no one here appreciates the type of contribution you're making to the thread, so please feel free to take your posts somewhere else. They not wanted here.

Sorry, who was it that made the personal attack?

I'm not sure why you started this thread, it appears like you have already made up your own mind on these expensive devices and you were just looking for others to confirm your decsion. I regret I am not one of those people and I'm sorry you apparently took this as a personal insult.

Goodbye.

 

[MobileTechie]

The reason I say the posters on the thread don't know any more than the OP is reading the claim that USB is perfectly fine for proper data recovery. You will not find a single professional level DR device that operates on USB because it does not work well with the ATA command set. Sure it's fine for basic imaging of a drive but after that you'll find any DR professional using tools only directly connected.

The reason I say some of these devices will work with a drive that a PC BIOS wouldn't pick up is because I've seen it done. I have to admit I don't know precisely how this works this would work but I assume there are other reasons a PC BIOS might not work perfectly with a drive other than PCB failure on the drive. I had the good fortune to spend a couple of hours with 2 DR guys and the machine they used managed to spin up and get data off a drive which was "completely dead" and not showing up previously. I suspect they had the ability to write to the firmware first? English wasn't their first language so it wasn't as productive as it might have been.

I think the PC3000 can do that but I'm not sure. Then if the drive can be seen but the s/w we use cannot get data off then there are imaging devices that still can get that data. I think the DeepSpar fits into that category.

Edit: I just checked and see this brochure: http://www.acedre.com/PC-3000PCIBrochure2006.pdf which explains how the PC3000 can edit firmware and then extract raw data. Note the phrase "When hard drives fail or are not recognised by the computer's BIOS". Now this product is not a "disk duplicator" for sure - a mistake in naming early on in the thread which seemed to spark of hostilities. Whether it is merely imager is arguable (although that is one of its functions). They call it a "data extractor". So it would seem that contrary to a claim made in this thread, when a drive cannot be seen by a PC's BIOS, it does not mean the drive PCD has had it. I can mean firmware problems and those can be corrected and the data read by this device.

I don't claim to know much about this other than what I've read and seen, which isn't much.

 

[iptech]

The reason I say the posters on the thread don't know any more than the OP is reading the claim that USB is perfectly fine for proper data recovery. You will not find a single professional level DR device that operates on USB because it does not work well with the ATA command set.

Not strictly true, it's not the USB hub that interfaces with the drive, it's the controller built into the device itself, this in turn communicates with the host PC via USB. USB works perfectly well with the "ATA command set" which is why all the hard disk manufacturers sell external USB hard drives as a mass-market product.

The reason I say some of these devices will work with a drive that a PC BIOS wouldn't pick up is because I've seen it done. I have to admit I don't know precisely how this works this would work but I assume there are other reasons a PC BIOS might not work perfectly with a drive other than PCB failure on the drive. I had the good fortune to spend a couple of hours with 2 DR guys and the machine they used managed to spin up and get data off a drive which was "completely dead" and not showing up previously. I suspect they had the ability to write to the firmware first?

A PC BIOS will check the SMART status and will ignore the drive if it doesn't spin up or respond as the BIOS expects, lower level devices such as these expensive disk duplicators will allow the drive to be accessed outside of the boundaries set my the manufacturers SMART thresholds. A BIOS will pass data to the operating system of the devices it detects that 'should' be able to be usable by an operating system, a disk duplicator does not need to operate the disk as a high speed read/write device so can spin up a drive outside of what would be considered 'normal' tolerances.

FWIW disk duplicators are just one device used for forensic-level data recovery. To set up a full forensic data recovery suite will require a much larger capital investment. If data recovery is required because of typical file system damage, expensive equipment will offer no great advantage as the recovery is primarily done by software.

 

[vdub12]

The reason I say the posters on the thread don't know any more than the OP is reading the claim that USB is perfectly fine for proper data recovery. You will not find a single professional level DR device that operates on USB because it does not work well with the ATA command set. Sure it's fine for basic imaging of a drive but after that you'll find any DR professional using tools only directly connected.

The reason I say some of these devices will work with a drive that a PC BIOS wouldn't pick up is because I've seen it done. I have to admit I don't know precisely how this works this would work but I assume there are other reasons a PC BIOS might not work perfectly with a drive other than PCB failure on the drive. I had the good fortune to spend a couple of hours with 2 DR guys and the machine they used managed to spin up and get data off a drive which was "completely dead" and not showing up previously. I suspect they had the ability to write to the firmware first? English wasn't their first language so it wasn't as productive as it might have been.

I think the PC3000 can do that but I'm not sure. Then if the drive can be seen but the s/w we use cannot get data off then there are imaging devices that still can get that data. I think the DeepSpar fits into that category.

Edit: I just checked and see this brochure: http://www.acedre.com/PC-3000PCIBrochure2006.pdf which explains how the PC3000 can edit firmware and then extract raw data. Note the phrase "When hard drives fail or are not recognised by the computer's BIOS". Now this product is not a "disk duplicator" for sure - a mistake in naming early on in the thread which seemed to spark of hostilities. Whether it is merely imager is arguable (although that is one of its functions). They call it a "data extractor". So it would seem that contrary to a claim made in this thread, when a drive cannot be seen by a PC's BIOS, it does not mean the drive PCD has had it. I can mean firmware problems and those can be corrected and the data read by this device.

I don't claim to know much about this other than what I've read and seen, which isn't much.

The problem is firmware problems are extremely rare and its my understanding that firmware problems can also be repaired using a PC.

I totally understand what you mean by USB adapters. However most techs will stop if data can not be recovered in the typical ways. So for most techs a USB adapter will work just fine.

I know my personal opinion is once reasonable attempts are spent its best to send a drive to a specialist. Not only are they trained on the tools and procedures to recover data from a damaged drive but they also have the best chance of recovering data. Once this level of recovery is reached the customer obviously thinks the data is that important and if thats the case I think that a job like this is best left to someone that knows what there doing.

I think this thread has gotten so out of hand is because we are talking about two different levels of hard drive recovery. When it comes to professional recovery I think that should be left up to a company that specialises in it. Most techs cannot afford the equipment alone to be able to do a reasonable job at this. Because this job does not end with an imager but also includes clean room recovery.

Someone attempting this kind of recovery can do more damage then they can solve and make possible data recovery imposable.

 

[MobileTechie]

My data recovery knowledge is mostly limited to bit's I've read, about 2 hours with some guys whose English was poor and listening to Scott Moulton's podcasts. That doesn't amount to much.

He states quite explicity that USB is not a good interface for DR as it does not fully support the ATA command set. He could wrong but I doubt it. However I'm sure this is not very relevant to the level of DR we do which lets face it is purely at the logical level. I think MHDD won't work with some commands over USB that it will do over ATA direct. Again i could be wrong.

From what I know, the imagers are a good bet for drives with lots of bad sectors that are about to fail. They can read good sectors that the BIOS/OS would normal not allow, read bad sectors, avoid using bad heads, target certain areas of data based on the MFT, and are much less likely to cause the drive to fail completely. I'm sure having one would be very cool but the chances of recouping the investment pretty much zero for techs like us.

I was just reading the DeepSpar imager site and I see this "Once complete, it then goes backwards through the drive so that any drive caching is disabled. (note: drive caching can cause problems for example: if there is a bad sector within the read ahead block it can cause the drive to hang or timeout)."

Maybe is the reason "reverse cloning" work?