Thinking About Switching From Legion 5 Pro To MacBook Pro M1 Pro

I'm sorry but that's just bullsh*t. I still have an Acer laptop that I use almost every day from 2007. Came with Windows Vista. It now runs Windows 10 with an SSD. There's nothing special about Apple laptops other than the fact that they use a different OS. Unless of course you're comparing some piece of crap $200 Walmart laptop to a MacBook, in which case that's an idiotic comparison. Though I bought my Acer laptop back in 2007 for $700 (back then that was really cheap for a laptop) so that's not always the case.

Apple has had more problems and recalls than any other computer. The 2011 models had the GPU issues, the 2009 - 2012 non-retina models had issues with the HDD cables, the 2012-2015 retina models had issues with delamination, the 2016-2019 models had issues with the keyboard, etc. I could go on. These are just the issues that Apple has publicly admitted to and issued a recall for. There are many others.

Yes they have had issues and they have come forward and fixed them with zero costs, and your 2007 acer is still working? Great, so are many 2007 MacBooks , the use you give your computer will determine is longevity, and i am not comparing MacBook Pro with a 200$ hp or acer, i am comparing with same price laptops… i am comparing my M1 MacBook Air that has a battery that lasts for 10h of work with a single charge, do you have any laptop that does the same for the same price range of the Air M1 and the same weight? Windows 11 doesn’t even install in most 2/3 years hardware that a big LOL, apple gives 6 years of updates to their devices, at least!
Is apple expensive? Yes it is, but it is far more reliable than any other brand
 
This thread is a bunch of nonsense.

Buy what you want. You don't have to justify it to anyone. The PC (any brand) vs Apple debate should stay in the consumer space, in my opinion. I personally wouldn't buy certain products for my own use, but have long ago realized that there's no reason to be emotionally invested in someone else's purchase.
 
Yes they have had issues and they have come forward and fixed them with zero costs, and your 2007 acer is still working? Great, so are many 2007 MacBooks , the use you give your computer will determine is longevity, and i am not comparing MacBook Pro with a 200$ hp or acer, i am comparing with same price laptops… i am comparing my M1 MacBook Air that has a battery that lasts for 10h of work with a single charge, do you have any laptop that does the same for the same price range of the Air M1 and the same weight? Windows 11 doesn’t even install in most 2/3 years hardware that a big LOL, apple gives 6 years of updates to their devices, at least!
Is apple expensive? Yes it is, but it is far more reliable than any other brand

I think it's important that we all acknowledge that we each have our own biases.

1. "they [Apple] have had issues and they have come forward and fixed them with zero costs"
And they have actively denied there was any issues for years on end(up to 5 in some cases, only after being sued in class-action lawsuits do they "offer free repairs". That doesn't go for all issues, but certainly seems to go for more than half of the issues. Look at their POS butterfly keyboards, for instance... or the garbage touchbar/LCD connector issue being too short... or their myriad of issues with their Motherboards.

2. "Great, so are many 2007 MacBooks [that are still working]" - Mmm, no, not really. The last 'version' of OSX for that class of system is 10.7.5 Lion... No HTTPS - so essentially no internet, no connection to Apple Servers and no support or updates puts this system in the garbage bin, artificially at Apple's whim. In fact this system only got 5 years of Apple updates, not the "6 years, at least!"

3. "do you have any laptop that does the same for the same price range of the Air M1 and the same weight?" Sure do.

"Right now, the laptop with best battery life you can buy is the Dell Latitude 9510, which comes in at a ridiculous 18 hours and 17 minutes..."
"...If you’re looking for a portable 2-in-1 laptop, the HP Spectre x360 is perfect for you. It lasted 13 hours and 20 minutes..."
"...But what makes the Latitude 9410 2-in-1 a true contender to the other best business laptops is its nearly 17 hours of battery life."
"...However, if you’re looking for a MacBook that matches up with the laptops with best battery life, then you’ll have to spring for the 16-inch MacBook Pro, which lasted exactly 11 hours on our test."


4. "Windows 11 doesn’t even install in most 2/3 years hardware that a big LOL, apple gives 6 years of updates to their devices, at least!"
Eh, not really. Windows 11 has some specific hardware requirements (we all know) of which some computers have and some don't.
Officially, a PC from 2017 with an 8th gen Intel or Ryzen 2nd gen is supported... that's 4-5 years, not 2 or 3. Again, Apple is 5-6 by policy, while Windows traditionally, Windows 11 excluded has been 6-8+ years for the past 3 decades.
Regardless, Windows 10 is not obsolete... and is not going to be obsolete until 2025 - a full 10 years - rivaling Apple by almost double their usual support terms.

5. "but it [Apple] is far more reliable than any other brand"
Well, easy to claim, harder to prove.

2019 Rescuecom reliability report:
1643403007638.png

2020 Rescuecom reliability report:
1643403195346.png
 
I think it's important that we all acknowledge that we each have our own biases.

1. "they [Apple] have had issues and they have come forward and fixed them with zero costs"
And they have actively denied there was any issues for years on end(up to 5 in some cases, only after being sued in class-action lawsuits do they "offer free repairs". That doesn't go for all issues, but certainly seems to go for more than half of the issues. Look at their POS butterfly keyboards, for instance... or the garbage touchbar/LCD connector issue being too short... or their myriad of issues with their Motherboards.
The butterfly keyboard is really problematic sure, but you have a 4 year quality program that offers you multiple replacements in case the issue persists, I can't recall other brands having recall programs for they're laptops (not saying that they don't do it, just really don't know of one).
The delamination issue has a 5 years quality program, again for more than one repair in case issue reappers.
The MacBook Pro 13" 2016 with backlight issues has a 4 year quality program, again for multiple repairs.

2. "Great, so are many 2007 MacBooks [that are still working]" - Mmm, no, not really. The last 'version' of OSX for that class of system is 10.7.5 Lion... No HTTPS - so essentially no internet, no connection to Apple Servers and no support or updates puts this system in the garbage bin, artificially at Apple's whim. In fact this system only got 5 years of Apple updates, not the "6 years, at least!"

Correct, but the MacBook Pro Late 2007 came with 10.4 and supports 10.11, so still usable, with restrictions of course, and has 7 years of updates, the early 2007 models were the ones that only updated to 10.7.5.
If you want to go a little bit further there's a possibility to install later versions of macOS using patched system, again not the best solution but a doable one, just like installing windows 10 on a laptop with 10+ years.

3. "do you have any laptop that does the same for the same price range of the Air M1 and the same weight?" Sure do.

"Right now, the laptop with best battery life you can buy is the Dell Latitude 9510, which comes in at a ridiculous 18 hours and 17 minutes..."
"...If you’re looking for a portable 2-in-1 laptop, the HP Spectre x360 is perfect for you. It lasted 13 hours and 20 minutes..."
"...But what makes the Latitude 9410 2-in-1 a true contender to the other best business laptops is its nearly 17 hours of battery life."
"...However, if you’re looking for a MacBook that matches up with the laptops with best battery life, then you’ll have to spring for the 16-inch MacBook Pro, which lasted exactly 11 hours on our test."


All of the above, are NOT at the same price range of the MacBook Air M1, the price point in € is 1159€ and 999$, the ones you've mencioned in € are ALL at 1849€ and 1899€, (not sure the price in US dollars) so NOT exactly the same thing.

4. "Windows 11 doesn’t even install in most 2/3 years hardware that a big LOL, apple gives 6 years of updates to their devices, at least!"
Eh, not really. Windows 11 has some specific hardware requirements (we all know) of which some computers have and some don't.
Officially, a PC from 2017 with an 8th gen Intel or Ryzen 2nd gen is supported... that's 4-5 years, not 2 or 3. Again, Apple is 5-6 by policy, while Windows traditionally, Windows 11 excluded has been 6-8+ years for the past 3 decades.
Regardless, Windows 10 is not obsolete... and is not going to be obsolete until 2025 - a full 10 years - rivaling Apple by almost double their usual support terms.

Ok but do you have a machine with 7 years that supports windows 11 (without replacing hardware? RAM and SSD excluded), Apple gives 6/7 years of macOS updates and continues to release security updates to this day to older macOS versions.

5. "but it [Apple] is far more reliable than any other brand"
Well, easy to claim, harder to prove.

2019 Rescuecom reliability report:
View attachment 13452

2020 Rescuecom reliability report:
View attachment 13454

This point is the US market? cannot speak here, won't refute this but I do not live there and cannot claim other thing than the ones I can :)
My personal experience with Apple is a very positive one, I use many Apple products and I cannot think of using other OS's in my day to day life.
 
The butterfly keyboard is really problematic sure, but you have a 4 year quality program that offers you multiple replacements in case the issue persists, I can't recall other brands having recall programs for they're laptops
Ya, but you're missing the point. You are stating it as if "Apple Cares" - they only started that program because a court ordered them to after they stiffed over 15,000+ of their customers for years as they denied there was an issue at all... and made people pay upwards of $400-600 for a keyboard replacement prior to being sued.

Apple knew they were selling, in the case of the displays and keyboards, defective products based on their own data - a court found. They refused to fess-up for years, so let's not act like they did this to be "a good company".

Perhaps the reason we don't see many other large-scale recalls for other computers is because they don't have wide spread defect problems with their keyboards and screen cables?

Apple denies there is ever an issue, when there is... they still do that. They only relent when they face court orders. Their security is largely "security by obfuscation" - which isn't security at all.... and Apple will deny there is a security vulnerability and will disregard any patches simply to save face and not have negative articles and press pointing to "patches" that fix "flaws"... leaving customers vulnerable in the mean time.

As far as exploits go, there are a ton of zero-click exploits for Metasploit for their phones and computers that Apple have not even acknowledged... even though anyone can grab Metasploit and see them for themselves - Apple can't? Or rather... they don't want to acknowledge that there is an issue, hence, stick head in sand? At least MS and others update their stuff regularly to be secure (try to anyways), regardless of their "image". Windows certainly has it's own issues, for sure.

Correct, but the MacBook Pro Late 2007 came with 10.4 and supports 10.11, so still usable, with restrictions of course, and has 7 years of updates, the early 2007 models were the ones that only updated to 10.7.5.

Well, we didn't make the distinction before, and while you can certainly pick the MacBook Pro Late 2007 (Which is only 2 months of 2007) - that leaves pretty much the entirety of the rest of their 2007 lineup in the trash bin. Macbook, Macbook Air, Mac Mini and Mac Pro - no good. That leaves 2 months of Macbook Pro's and ~4 months of specific configurations of iMac's.

If you want to go a little bit further there's a possibility to install later versions of macOS using patched system, again not the best solution but a doable one, just like installing windows 10 on a laptop with 10+ years.

And if you want to "hack" something onto old hardware, Windows 11 is running on a 15 year old single-core Pentium 4 - so does that mean Windows wins in the dick-measuring contest, then?

All of the above, are NOT at the same price range of the MacBook Air M1, the price point in € is 1159€ and 999$, the ones you've mencioned in € are ALL at 1849€ and 1899€, (not sure the price in US dollars) so NOT exactly the same thing.
Well, the metrics for comparison were battery life and weight, not cost. Why does a Windows machine that has MUCH better battery life (if that's what you cared about) at roughly the same weight as the Mac... with more features (Touchscreen, better RAM and graphics specs, etc) have to be the same cost? Arguably you are getting "more" with the Windows PC - why should we expect it to be less money or the same money, than the lesser computer? But let's back up a sec.

You asked if any Windowz computer could beat Apple's amazing 10hr battery life... so let's match apples to apples (no pun intended). 10hr battery life just isn't that impressive, really:

Asus ExpertBook B9450 - 16hrs 29mins - $1600
LG Gram 14 from 2020 - 16hrs 3mins - $1340
LG Gram 17 from 2020 - 16hrs 17mins - $1579
Samsung Notebook 9 Pro - 12hrs 30mins - $900
Dell XPS 13 9370 from 2020 - 11hrs 26mins - $566
Lenovo YOGA C740 - 11hrs 12mins - $669
.... I'll stop there, without listing the other 20-30 10hr+ laptops.

Ok but do you have a machine with 7 years that supports windows 11 (without replacing hardware? RAM and SSD excluded), Apple gives 6/7 years of macOS updates and continues to release security updates to this day to older macOS versions.

I feel you're conflating two different things - "Support" and "Newest Operating System" and the interaction between "hardware generations" and "technical limitations".

In your comparison I quoted above, you unfairly refer to "Windows 11" for Microsoft and "6/7 years of MacOS updates" for Apple

The comparison should be "Supported Windows OS's" vs "Supported OSX's" - An Apple computer is obsolete between 6-8 years depending on models and year (The 8 year figure included only for some outliers) - so let's say an avg of 7 years.
Microsoft OS's are supported for 10 years or more (up to 15 in some cases).

It matters not, that you don't have the "Latest" OS for Windows, your computer is fully functional and updates and features are still being added to past Windows versions. In the case of the mac, on avg, after 7 years.. your mac will become severely functionally limited or unusable. There's really no way around it, Microsoft provides better support and longevity for their OS's, than Apple.

Regardless, it's a moot point in most cases since almost nobody holds onto the same laptop as a daily device, as a serious user, past 7-10 years anyway - I would say.

This point is the US market? cannot speak here, won't refute this but I do not live there and cannot claim other thing than the ones I can :)
My personal experience with Apple is a very positive one, I use many Apple products and I cannot think of using other OS's in my day to day life.

And many have a positive experience with their Apple computers. So do many with their Windows Computers. Like I have stated before.. the last issue I had with a Windows computer of my own (No garbage hardware) - was pre-Windows 7 during the XP days... so for the past 17+ years I've had ZERO issues with my personal or Business Windows computers (over 20 during that time, 3 person household). Is that not reliability and longevity?

"Apple people" think they're the only one's benefiting from "technology". That's right, technology. Apple doesn't make 95% of their computers internals... their internals are drawn up from plans from Wistron and Foxconn, AMD and Intel, Realtek, Qualcomm, Infinion and the like. They just build a case around it and slap all the pieces together. Every time you see a new camera, or sensor or new hardware feature - it's largely because somebody else made it and that "product" is available for implementation into consumer goods.
Their M1 chip is kinda a scam. They claim "they made it", but they only kinda made it. See, I can go make an ARM processor too.. each processor, memory section, instruction sets are all offered as "Blocks" that you can pick and drop into CAD to fit your needs. That's all that Apple did (for the most part) - they purchased the designs from ARM, plopped X amount of Cores and X amount of Cache, etc.. They didn't design it, ARM did - Apple simply ordered a custom ARM chip based on their in-house preferences.

All that to say, Apple's "reliability" as far as hardware goes - from an EE (Electrical Engineering) aspect.. is just as good as most other competing products... sometimes worse, sometimes better - but rarely by leaps and bounds. Their motherboards are not special. The capacitors they use are not special. The components on the board are largely the exact same components as everyone else. I would argue, in many respect's, Apple's choices towards engineering are stupid and self-serving at the expense of stupid **** nobody is asking for... but that's for another conversation.

When Apple actually designs it's own stuff (Like the T2 chip) - It's been hit or miss. In the case of the T2 chip, that's been having an abnormal amount of failures, requiring MB replacement and causing full data loss (locally on the mac) and has an unfixable flaw that makes it fully vulnerable:

TL;DR: recent Macs (2018-2020, T2 chip) are no longer safe to use if left alone and physical access was possible, even if you had them powered down.

• The root of trust on macOS is inherently broken
• [An attacker] can bruteforce your FileVault2 volume password
• [An attacker] can alter your macOS installation [i.e. install malware]
• [An attacker] can load arbitrary kernel extensions
 
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Before I read through all the responses to your original post I'm gonna say this. Your post here is analogous to going to the comment section on Fox News and saying you want Hillary to run again and that you loved her as First Lady, a Senator and Secretary of State.
 
A gaming desktop PC would definitely be the best option for performance per dollar and for quality as you can choose your own parts and easily replace a bad part vs a laptop. Gaming desktop + decent laptop with good battery life. I think the Apple MacBook Air M1 would be amazing and it's "only" $900. It's a lot of computer for the money - amazing performance, display, battery life, best customer service.
This is me. My daily driver for work and misc stuff is my 2015 MacBook Pro Retina. Got 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM. Magsafe connector, HDMI, USB A, Thunderbolt, i5 processor. Been running strong for almost 6 years. Had AppleCare on it. Near the end of three years I had them replace the battery for free under warranty. While it was in they replaced the screen too, (maybe even the top case if I recall). The screen looked fine to me, never noticed an issue, so that was a nice surprise. I'm typing on it right now. I do have a new MacBook Air M1 with 16GB and 1TB, waiting in the wings, but I've been taking my time loading it clean. No real reason to replace this one except for two minor things.

The battery occasionally won't last as long as I'd like. Most days it goes all day. The other is that as a computer guy, I need to keep up and be current. Owning and using the newer tech like the M1 chip and getting used to the USB-C world would be helpful.

Also, used to keep a couple of Windows VMs on it under VMware Fusion for when I needed Windows on hand, but I've found very little need for that in recent years.

My home office desktop is a nice gaming build that is pretty tricked out, top of the line that I built two years ago. Game on that and do occasional Windows things I need to work with and test.
 
The thing about MacBooks is that they look and feel like the most premium laptop to ever exist. I have never felt that way about a Windows laptop. That unibody aluminum build OMG 😍 with an insane miniLED display that can get as bright as the sun lol and is true HDR.

That Latitude 9510 mentioned has the best battery life, but it has a 4-core processor and a not-so-bright 500 nits display.

I wish Windows had a comparable laptop:

- Aluminum unibody
- miniLED 1,000 nits HDR display
- 8-core CPU+
- Glass touchpad
- World-class customer service
- Extremely well developed drivers / reliability

Ideally with easily replaceable Wi-Fi chip, NVME, CPU, RAM.

Someone needs to get on this lol. If I win the YUGE lottery, I will make it happen lol.
 
Ideally with easily replaceable Wi-Fi chip, NVME, CPU, RAM.
I have a Bosch dishwasher. (I'm making the rest up, for illustration). It has 5 cycles and a 1/3 hp motor. I could have got one with 7 cycles and a 1/2 hp motor, but it was way more than I wanted to spend but I really wanted it the extra features and power. I can't go to Amazon and buy the 1/2 hp motor and I can't add the extra cycles. I'm fine with that. Dishwashers were never made to be upgradeable and marketed that way. If the manufacturer had to build the motor mount and hose connections so they'd be easy for a homeowner to swap out then the machine would have different dynamics.

Computers are one line of products that are designed in a way that it's easy for a user to upgrade them. I think they're mostly unique in that way. I'm sure someone going to chime in with other products that are, but I can't think of any.

But if a manufacturer builds the machine so everything is soldered and integrated and non upgradeable I think overall it will be a better, more reliable product in the grand scheme of things.
 
Well, the metrics for comparison were battery life and weight, not cost. Why does a Windows machine that has MUCH better battery life (if that's what you cared about) at roughly the same weight as the Mac... with more features (Touchscreen, better RAM and graphics specs, etc) have to be the same cost? Arguably you are getting "more" with the Windows PC - why should we expect it to be less money or the same money, than the lesser computer?
Did you read my post correctly?
i am comparing my M1 MacBook Air that has a battery that lasts for 10h of work with a single charge, do you have any laptop that does the same for the same price range of the Air M1 and the same weight?...

I mentioned the cost because the first argument people often emphasize is PRICE not features or specs, the second point is features, but for the same performance as the entry level MacBook (wich is the Air M1), you DON'T have the same machine, and if you wan't to compare performance and power not prices we can talk about the Pro Max M1, or the Mac Pro 2020 fully customized at maximum specs, but that is not a machine that you would buy just for a home use, right? just as the ones you've mencioned!
Ya, but you're missing the point. You are stating it as if "Apple Cares" - they only started that program because a court ordered them to after they stiffed over 15,000+ of their customers for years as they denied there was an issue at all... and made people pay upwards of $400-600 for a keyboard replacement prior to being sued.

Apple knew they were selling, in the case of the displays and keyboards, defective products based on their own data - a court found. They refused to fess-up for years, so let's not act like they did this to be "a good company".

Perhaps the view here should be: how many companies have the same number os equipments made by them, and OS for that matter, and have the same client base?

Perhaps the reason we don't see many other large-scale recalls for other computers is because they don't have wide spread defect problems with their keyboards and screen cables?

They do, but the thing is most customers that purchase the entry level machines of said brands buy a plastic piece of crap shell of a computer, and for 400/500 bucks they just don't care, the other 10% (probably being a little over the top here), they do complaint and the companies will do one of two things: repair the issue (for a cost, I really doubt that they wouldn't charge) or just really don't care because there aren't enough complaints.
You don't have a plastic Mac computer since the unibody models came out.
Keyboard issues exist only in 2016 to 2019 models and the screen cables are only in 2016 models, so were talking about a 3 year range, not all of them!!

Apple denies there is ever an issue, when there is... they still do that. They only relent when they face court orders.

Are they the only ones that do that? No, but they are probably the ones who face the most court issues because, lets face it, they have a big market and that gives them a big target on their back, and I am not saying that they are all good, just stating facts.
Their security is largely "security by obfuscation" - which isn't security at all.... and Apple will deny there is a security vulnerability and will disregard any patches simply to save face and not have negative articles and press pointing to "patches" that fix "flaws"... leaving customers vulnerable in the mean time.

Wrong again, apple launches updates to ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTS on a regular basis, do you even use an Apple product or are you just saying things you read online? I understand you don't like Apple but that doesn't mean their products are bad, just like other brands.

As far as exploits go, there are a ton of zero-click exploits for Metasploit for their phones and computers that Apple have not even acknowledged... even though anyone can grab Metasploit and see them for themselves - Apple can't? Or rather... they don't want to acknowledge that there is an issue, hence, stick head in sand? At least MS and others update their stuff regularly to be secure (try to anyways), regardless of their "image". Windows certainly has it's own issues, for sure.
Do you really want to compare the vulnerabilities of windows vs macOS or heck even windows vs linux?? Windows is the MOST vulnerable system there is, just like android, not saying other don't have issues, but not as many as windows that's for sure!!

Well, we didn't make the distinction before, and while you can certainly pick the MacBook Pro Late 2007 (Which is only 2 months of 2007) - that leaves pretty much the entirety of the rest of their 2007 lineup in the trash bin. Macbook, Macbook Air, Mac Mini and Mac Pro - no good. That leaves 2 months of Macbook Pro's and ~4 months of specific configurations of iMac's.
And the windows machines of the same year have a better performance or usability without compromising the user data?! ...

And if you want to "hack" something onto old hardware, Windows 11 is running on a 15 year old single-core Pentium 4 - so does that mean Windows wins in the dick-measuring contest, then?
Sure you can but can you take advantage of windows 11 on a 15 year old machine? and don't tell me you can because that would just be a lie, not saying that macOS on a 2007 machine is better either!

Well, the metrics for comparison were battery life and weight, not cost. Why does a Windows machine that has MUCH better battery life (if that's what you cared about) at roughly the same weight as the Mac... with more features (Touchscreen, better RAM and graphics specs, etc) have to be the same cost? Arguably you are getting "more" with the Windows PC - why should we expect it to be less money or the same money, than the lesser computer? But let's back up a sec.
So let's compare with a Mac of the same specs, if price is not the question, wich I already stated that the first point of ALL Apple haters is the price vs equipment, I am not even going to enter the fact that the devaluation of ANY Apple product is way less than ANY OTHER BRANDS of computers, phones, media centers (Apple TV), AirPods and other headphones, airports, iPads, watches, and other peripherals, oh wait, other brands do not have the same lineup as Apple does.... that sucks!
You asked if any Windowz computer could beat Apple's amazing 10hr battery life... so let's match apples to apples (no pun intended). 10hr battery life just isn't that impressive, really:

Asus ExpertBook B9450 - 16hrs 29mins - $1600
LG Gram 14 from 2020 - 16hrs 3mins - $1340
LG Gram 17 from 2020 - 16hrs 17mins - $1579
Samsung Notebook 9 Pro - 12hrs 30mins - $900
Dell XPS 13 9370 from 2020 - 11hrs 26mins - $566
Lenovo YOGA C740 - 11hrs 12mins - $669
.... I'll stop there, without listing the other 20-30 10hr+ laptops.
Again that's a unfair comparison because those are computers that you wouldn't buy unless you need a REALLY powerful computer to work with, so for the entry level products of ANY computer brand, name one that has the same battery life and performance of the MacBook Air M1?
I feel you're conflating two different things - "Support" and "Newest Operating System" and the interaction between "hardware generations" and "technical limitations".

In your comparison I quoted above, you unfairly refer to "Windows 11" for Microsoft and "6/7 years of MacOS updates" for Apple

The comparison should be "Supported Windows OS's" vs "Supported OSX's" - An Apple computer is obsolete between 6-8 years depending on models and year (The 8 year figure included only for some outliers) - so let's say an avg of 7 years.
Microsoft OS's are supported for 10 years or more (up to 15 in some cases).
Ok here I cannot argue with you, but still Apple does not leave their products to the wind even if they do not upgrade to the latest OS.

It matters not, that you don't have the "Latest" OS for Windows, your computer is fully functional and updates and features are still being added to past Windows versions.
Wich new feature the added to windows 7 after windows 8 was released? or windows 10?? Not talking about security updates or patches, talking about new features that did not came with original version of windows.

In the case of the mac, on avg, after 7 years.. your mac will become severely functionally limited or unusable. There's really no way around it, Microsoft provides better support and longevity for their OS's, than Apple.
Elaborate please, because I have lots of customers that still use their iMacs 2011 for heavy work, MacBooks from 2010 or 2009, and they do not have such limitations, certainly no more or no less than a windows machine of the same year.

Regardless, it's a moot point in most cases since almost nobody holds onto the same laptop as a daily device, as a serious user, past 7-10 years anyway - I would say.
Here we agree, and the people that do are old folks and they just use it to Facebook and mail.

And many have a positive experience with their Apple computers. So do many with their Windows Computers. Like I have stated before.. the last issue I had with a Windows computer of my own (No garbage hardware) - was pre-Windows 7 during the XP days... so for the past 17+ years I've had ZERO issues with my personal or Business Windows computers (over 20 during that time, 3 person household). Is that not reliability and longevity?
Yes but I always stated that I was talking about entry level models not the high end, how many windows machines are sold that are a complete piece of garbage that people will pay 300/400 dollars and then after a year or two the machine is wasted?! Again Apple is not for everyone but even if you buy their entry level product, wich will be around the 999$ you still have a computer for a solid 7/8 years (depends of the use you need to have) and for a basic use 10+ years! (I have lots of customers with 13 years old MacBooks that don't want to upgrade)
"Apple people" think they're the only one's benefiting from "technology". That's right, technology. Apple doesn't make 95% of their computers internals...
and HP does? or Acer? tell me wich company has hardware developed by them and OS??

their internals are drawn up from plans from Wistron and Foxconn, AMD and Intel, Realtek, Qualcomm, Infinion and the like. They just build a case around it and slap all the pieces together.
Much like HP, Acer, Dell etc.... so no point discussing this....

Every time you see a new camera, or sensor or new hardware feature - it's largely because somebody else made it and that "product" is available for implementation into consumer goods.
Like other brands.... you are repeating yourself...

Their M1 chip is kinda a scam. They claim "they made it", but they only kinda made it. See, I can go make an ARM processor too..

Ok build me one and the OS please... one that works as fine as M1 and has same price/performance....

each processor, memory section, instruction sets are all offered as "Blocks" that you can pick and drop into CAD to fit your needs. That's all that Apple did (for the most part) - they purchased the designs from ARM, plopped X amount of Cores and X amount of Cache, etc.. They didn't design it, ARM did - Apple simply ordered a custom ARM chip based on their in-house preferences.
Name other brands of computers that have a ARM processor and OS integration like macOS, I'll wait....

All that to say, Apple's "reliability" as far as hardware goes - from an EE (Electrical Engineering) aspect.. is just as good as most other competing products... sometimes worse, sometimes better - but rarely by leaps and bounds.
Not saying they are, just comparing prices and options, you can't compare a 999$ computer to a 1900$ and expect same thing...

Their motherboards are not special. The capacitors they use are not special. The components on the board are largely the exact same components as everyone else. I would argue, in many respect's, Apple's choices towards engineering are stupid and self-serving at the expense of stupid **** nobody is asking for... but that's for another conversation.

Again I will ask for another brand of computers that does the same as apple in matters of hardware and OS integration and optimization.

When Apple actually designs it's own stuff (Like the T2 chip) - It's been hit or miss. In the case of the T2 chip, that's been having an abnormal amount of failures, requiring MB replacement and causing full data loss (locally on the mac)
When the SSD is soldered to the logic board that could happen yes, but tell other windows machines with same SSD soldered that if the logic board fails you can recover all the data? you can't be 100% sure on that, even if the SSD/HD is not soldered...

and has an unfixable flaw that makes it fully vulnerable:

TL;DR: recent Macs (2018-2020, T2 chip) are no longer safe to use if left alone and physical access was possible, even if you had them powered down.

• The root of trust on macOS is inherently broken
• [An attacker] can bruteforce your FileVault2 volume password
• [An attacker] can alter your macOS installation [i.e. install malware]
• [An attacker] can load arbitrary kernel extensions
And windows does not have the same issues you mentioned here? come on.... you now better than this...
 
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I see this common mistake with consumers all the time...they base their experience on "Windows" computers on cheap residential grade models...and gush super wet over higher priced Apples. This is not a legit comparison of "apples to apples". Yet...if you got a higher end biz grade model Lenovo.....it's be a close call...and a fairer comparison.
 
I see this common mistake with consumers all the time...they base their experience on "Windows" computers on cheap residential grade models...and gush super wet over higher priced Apples. This is not a legit comparison of "apples to apples". Yet...if you got a higher end biz grade model Lenovo.....it's be a close call...and a fairer comparison.
Exactly, but the higher end Lenovo model won’t be 600$ or even 700$, it will be as expensive as a MacBook
 
@overburnz I don't want to continue making 5-page posts - they're just going to expand and expand and be pedantic followed by questions and no answers.

Bottom line, buy what you want.. just don't fall for marketing. I feel a lot of what I said is being lost in translation.
 
@overburnz I don't want to continue making 5-page posts - they're just going to expand and expand and be pedantic followed by questions and no answers.

Bottom line, buy what you want.. just don't fall for marketing. I feel a lot of what I said is being lost in translation.

I did answer all your points I just think that they were not the answers you wanted.
I just can't understand the hate some users have with apple products, most of them never had or used an Apple product on a daily basis, they just like to trash talk and their experience is based on what they read online (not saying that is your case).

You do need to buy what you want and best suits your needs just do go around saying that other brands are not suitable for others....
 
I did answer all your points I just think that they were not the answers you wanted.
I just can't understand the hate some users have with apple products, most of them never had or used an Apple product on a daily basis, they just like to trash talk and their experience is based on what they read online (not saying that is your case).

You do need to buy what you want and best suits your needs just do go around saying that other brands are not suitable for others....
You "answered" with 9 questions, that I can count. But regardless, I'm sorry, but you are largely incorrect in your assessments about Apple... and some of the answers seem to miss the finer points I made - or perhaps I'm not being clear enough - or it's lost in translation.

I'll put answers to only a few of your points:
Wrong again, apple launches updates to ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTS on a regular basis, do you even use an Apple product or are you just saying things you read online? I understand you don't like Apple but that doesn't mean their products are bad, just like other brands.
I'm not looking at it from a personal point of view, and you're not understanding the finer difference between "updates" and Apple, the company, actively doing NOTHING to address security vulnerabilities... in what can only be seen as arrogance or complacency by Apple:


Do you really want to compare the vulnerabilities of windows vs macOS or heck even windows vs linux?? Windows is the MOST vulnerable system there is, just like android, not saying other don't have issues, but not as many as windows that's for sure!!
Sure, let's do that. See, I have information to back up my claims. Now, which OS has the most? You are incorrect in your assessment.
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Perhaps the view here should be: how many companies have the same number os equipments made by them, and OS for that matter, and have the same client base?
Well, who cares? You're trying to squeeze out an unfair comparison. Apple's business model is to control everything... and the PC model is to have many companies provide input and software and hardware to produce a final product... it's OPEN vs. CLOSED. There are good things and bad things about both approaches. As far as client base goes, Apple doesn't even compete at 8.5%.
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When the SSD is soldered to the logic board that could happen yes, but tell other windows machines with same SSD soldered that if the logic board fails you can recover all the data? you can't be 100% sure on that, even if the SSD/HD is not soldered...
Are you sure you know what you're talking about? The T2 Chip has nothing to do with the SSD.
And windows does not have the same issues you mentioned here? come on.... you now better than this...
No, Windows PC's do not have a custom T2 chip that is known to fail prematurely, so I do know better.

The point here isn't to "make PC's better in your eyes", it's to make you see that there is very little difference in the actual hardware between any of them - so if you're going to claim Apple is superior in hardware, you have to explain why that is when they are all made with the same parts and use 3rd party stuff like everyone else. I'm attempting to show they are all on a similar plane, breaking your narrative of "Apple Superior".
 
Exactly, but the higher end Lenovo model won’t be 600$ or even 700$, it will be as expensive as a MacBook
I don't believe in laptops < $1,000.00.....those under 1k are usually still consumer grade. Typing this reply from my Carbon X1, it ran about $1750.00 MSRP when I got it. Over 5 years old now, and I beat the living piss out of it nearly every day, rough environments, rough handling, still runs like a champ.
 
@phaZed

I have to point out that while Debian Linux, and Android, and Ubuntu Linux are the top three on the list by distinct vulnerabilities. These three products are all open source, with all known issues tracked in public repositories. MacOS X and Windows 10 are closed, so we cannot see those repos. The only CVEs we get on those platforms are ones reported by 3rd parties, whereas the open platforms get a CVE for every reported and confirmed issue.

The transparency means the open platforms will report more issues. So the fact that Mac OS X is 4th is actually objectively WORSE because it's a closed system that's competing with Ubuntu for 3rd place!

So yes, you're right. Apple hasn't been doing well on the security front in 2021. But if you go back to 2020 and prior the pattern shifts. So historically using this metric one could say that Apple was more secure than Windows.

Not that I'd dare make such an assertion. Windows has its issues, but with proper management it's a solid platform. Where that not the case it wouldn't be as popular as it is. Apple has done many things that shot themselves in the foot, and their closed nature is among the largest. They'd capture market share quickly if they allowed their OS on 3rd party hardware. Of course, if they did this we'd all get to see how hilariously insecure it is right next to Windows... Except unlike Microsoft that has decades of experience getting beat up by public and at times shameful bugs and problems... Apple's pristine image has yet to be so tested. It'd crumble in a flash... the exclusivity would die... and the entire reason people buy it would go up in smoke.

Apple branded gear sells because it's an elite brand. I'm better than you because I use Apple... that's what people think. We see it on display in this thread. That's exactly why I don't use it, and actively avoid supporting it.

Besides... none of my equipment had people killing themselves to get out of making it. Apple still has that distinction, no matter how much they try to blame Foxconn for it.
 
I too am in this situation @Appletax, I have a 2015 15" MBP with 256GB SSD, and these days it is not enough storage and the fans kick on....just yesterday I was looking at the new 16" MBP with 1TB SSD with the M1 Pro. M1 Pro/Max easily defeats a latest gen Intel i9. Only issue currently is not all apps are for M1 Pro yet, so I might wait till the Rosetta program is over. It is a great machine, and I totally agree with you in most points you've mentioned. If you can afford it, go for it.
 
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