Server HW recommendations for small bus

[MobileTechie]

Hi

I need to spec up a server for a dentists - 10-20 users. Mostly running their dental software and serving files including dental xray images. They're not a domain environment so no AD, not DNS, no DHCP, no Exchange - really just a file server and running that one app.

They currently have a pretty old dell tower running a weedy Xeon. I don't want to get too pricey as they're not likely to be expanding anytime soon and if the cost is OK they're likely to get me to upgrade servers in their other surgeries, however obviously no point in getting too cheap about it either.

thx.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Big difference from 10 to 20 chairs....we have one dentist office at 10 chairs, plus they have another 10 workstations (two at front desk, one each for Docs, break room, office manager, billing office, one at Sidexis machine) we have 3x servers there
*SBS (so DC, Exchange)
*Apps for Dentrix suite, digital highway CC processing
*XRay

All on a single HV host, with separate R10 volume just for the XRay guest since that needs to be very fast disks
Other 2 servers sharing another R10 volume

on Datto for backup.
Active Directory is desired for compliance when medical and credit card files are passed around the network.

the HV host is running 64 gigs of RAM, a pair of 300 SAS drives up front for the HV OS and a couple of C drives of the guests, and a TB worth of additional volumes in the R10 setups for the data volumes of the guests.

Additional Intel dual gigabit NIC to spread the throughput
redundant power supply (medical places should have redundant hardware for uptime)
remote iLO access

 

[Mick]

20 users is about on the limit for a workgroup. But from a purely tech point of view, it might be a solution if they are dead set against a dedicated server environment. Having said which, Essentials 2016 isn't hugely expensive. And you're going to have to replace the old Xeon thing anyway...

At the same time, for all this file-viewing stuff, worth it to swap out any old CAT 5 stuff or 10/100 NICs for CAT 6 and Gigabit.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Essentials 2016 isn't hugely expensive.

May not be supported by their dental practice software...some don't want to wrestle with the "bloat" on Essentials....competing for resources on a likely cheap desktop hard drive (SATA) based server if someone is getting servers with low budget in mind.

 

[Mick]

May not be supported by their dental practice software...some don't want to wrestle with the "bloat" on Essentials....competing for resources on a likely cheap desktop hard drive (SATA) based server if someone is getting servers with low budget in mind.

Good point - I have no experience of LOB dentistry stuff!

 

[Moltuae]

Mostly running their dental software and serving files including dental xray images.

What software are they using?

I took over support of a dental practice a few years ago .... probably about the same size practice as the one you're working with -- This one has 4 surgeries, 15 or so users. They use an Optime scanner and Digora for Windows for the X-rays. For practice management, they were using Paragon but have now switched to EXACT Dental (supplied by Software of Excellence).

It was a complete mess when I took it over ... Desktop PCs acting as servers (some even running Home Ed.), many with disabled firewalls and/or no AV. The main 'server' (a Windows 7 Pro machine) was sat in the main surgery and the X-Ray 'server' (a Windows 7 Home machine) was on the main reception, doubling as a workstation (and users logged in with full admin rights). Oh, and all computer logins were 'secured' with the same 5-letter password. Cabling was also a mess ... One 'main' switch on the floor of the main surgery and numerous joints and switches throughout.

I completely rewired the network, back to a newly allocated (and dedicated) server room. I talked them into a used HP Proliant rack server (they couldn't quite stretch to brand new), stuffed with Samsung Pro SSDs, 128GB of RAM and multiple network adaptors. I virtualised their existing 'servers' temporarily, then gradually moved everything over to the new system, which comprises a virtual DC and a general virtual server (all Server 2012 Standard Ed., Hyper-V hosted). All the computers were replaced with new Windows 10 machines, domain joined with folder redirection (so that data is no longer held on the workstations). Before the work was done, unsurprisingly they had computer issues almost daily. Now the only calls I get from them are very occasional requests for help with basic things like opening files or printing.

If you go down the virtualisation route, as I did, you may need to check with the LOB software vendors if they support virtualisation, surprisingly many still don't. There were some virtualisation issues with EXACT Dental, but I managed to work around them.

 

[masseym]

My main recommendation, regardless of all other specs, is the need for RAID. I would go with RAID 10 (1+0). 4 Hard drives with striping and mirroring. You can get pretty cheap 1TB drives now. That would give you 1.8TB of usable space. If money is a little more loose, I would go with a FAST SSD drive for the OS and then a RAID 10 of storage drives. Make sure you keep an image of the OS drive just in case the SSD dies.

With dental stuff, you can never have too much RAM, BUT, RAM needs to be on client side since they are viewing xrays etc. a server with 16GB is "sufficient" if just pushing files. 32GB wouldn't hurt. I would invest in upgrading network to CAT 6, upgrading network cards to gigabit speed. Those dental xray will eat bandwidth like crazy.

Recommend looking to move to AD as well. Might as well get it in place now as to waiting until they are pushing the limit.

 

[MobileTechie]

Thanks for the input guys.

So what do you think on the processor front? What level XEON?

I agree on the AD front - from a security perspective alone, given their responsibilities for patient data, it makes sense.

 

[MobileTechie]

What software are they using?

I took over support of a dental practice a few years ago .... probably about the same size practice as the one you're working with -- This one has 4 surgeries, 15 or so users. They use an Optime scanner and Digora for Windows for the X-rays. For practice management, they were using Paragon but have now switched to EXACT Dental (supplied by Software of Excellence).

It was a complete mess when I took it over ... Desktop PCs acting as servers (some even running Home Ed.), many with disabled firewalls and/or no AV. The main 'server' (a Windows 7 Pro machine) was sat in the main surgery and the X-Ray 'server' (a Windows 7 Home machine) was on the main reception, doubling as a workstation (and users logged in with full admin rights). Oh, and all computer logins were 'secured' with the same 5-letter password. Cabling was also a mess ... One 'main' switch on the floor of the main surgery and numerous joints and switches throughout.

I completely rewired the network, back to a newly allocated (and dedicated) server room. I talked them into a used HP Proliant rack server (they couldn't quite stretch to brand new), stuffed with Samsung Pro SSDs, 128GB of RAM and multiple network adaptors. I virtualised their existing 'servers' temporarily, then gradually moved everything over to the new system, which comprises a virtual DC and a general virtual server (all Server 2012 Standard Ed., Hyper-V hosted). All the computers were replaced with new Windows 10 machines, domain joined with folder redirection (so that data is no longer held on the workstations). Before the work was done, unsurprisingly they had computer issues almost daily. Now the only calls I get from them are very occasional requests for help with basic things like opening files or printing.

If you go down the virtualisation route, as I did, you may need to check with the LOB software vendors if they support virtualisation, surprisingly many still don't. There were some virtualisation issues with EXACT Dental, but I managed to work around them.

Yes it's Exact. All very similar to what you describe

Not sure I'll. bother with virtualising. Which Proliant was it you put in?

 

[MobileTechie]

My main recommendation, regardless of all other specs, is the need for RAID. I would go with RAID 10 (1+0). 4 Hard drives with striping and mirroring. You can get pretty cheap 1TB drives now. That would give you 1.8TB of usable space. If money is a little more loose, I would go with a FAST SSD drive for the OS and then a RAID 10 of storage drives. Make sure you keep an image of the OS drive just in case the SSD dies.

/QUOTE]

SATA or SAS?

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

You don't want SATA on a server unless it's like a 2-3 person business doing the most basic of file storage and they don't mind an hourglass every now 'n then.

Any business above that..especially if hosting apps, you want SAS as a minimum, SSD if they can afford it.

Dentist offices have even higher performance needs...with image software. So fast SAS or SSD.

 

[Moltuae]

Yes it's Exact. All very similar to what you describe

Not sure I'll. bother with virtualising. Which Proliant was it you put in?

It was a used DL380 G7 (from Bargain Hardware). Like I said, it was a couple of years ago, so you'll probably get a used Gen 8 or 9 for similar money now.

The advantages of virtualisation far outweigh the small amount of extra configuration time, in my opinion. It enables you to separate server roles and quickly backup/restore VMs remotely. Also, since VMs can easily be moved between host servers, moving to new hardware is simpler and quicker, should you need to add more servers or upgrade/replace the host server later.

The only minor virtualisation issue I had with Exact was with their imaging software, Examine Pro. Apparently their software developers think we're still in the 90s because it uses a USB hardware protection 'dongle' key. On seeing the virtualisation setup, the installation engineer sent by Software Of Excellence responded by saying "it don't support virtualisation", then he promptly plugged the 'dongle' into one of the workstations instead. That worked but was unacceptable in my opinion because it meant that the chosen workstation had to be switched on to enable other users to use Examine Pro. The hardware key seemed pretty simple to bypass or emulate but I decided to move it to the server instead using the USB over IP device recommended here by @YeOldeStonecat and @Paul Rodgers .

 

[Your PCMD]

It was a used DL380 G7 (from Bargain Hardware).

I wish this place would ship to me or a place like this was in the US. The prices on their servers are insanely low. I would order a couple today if I could.

Dell PowerEdge R410 (Configure-To-Order)

• Processor #1: 2.40 GHz Quad-Core Xeon (E5620) - 5.86 GT/8MB +...
• Processor #2: 2.40 GHz Quad-Core Xeon (E5620) - 5.86 GT/8MB +...
• Memory: 16GB - (4 x 4GB) DDR3 ECC Reg +£38.40
• Hard Drive #1: Empty 3.5" Caddy/Tray + £6.99
• Hard Drive #2: Empty 3.5" Caddy/Tray + £6.99
• Hard Drive #3: Empty 3.5" Caddy/Tray + £6.99
• Hard Drive #4: Empty 3.5" Caddy/Tray + £6.99
• RAID Controller: SAS6iR Modular Controller + £0.00
• Power Supply: Single Fixed PSU + £0.00
• iDRAC6 Card: iDRAC6 Express - £10.00
• Power Cable: No Power Cables + £0.00

£188.35 - damn thats a good deal. Converts to just over $250.00

 

[timeshifter]

Windows Server Essentials would have been a great fit for an office that was going to upgrade their Dentrix to the current version. Small office with one dentist and a couple of chairs. The Dentrix people flat out said that Windows Server Essentials in NOT supported. Had something to do with ports that Essentials uses that conflicts with their stuff. I learned this about a year ago, haven't looked at it since.

 

[MobileTechie]

I'm a bit shy of big overspeccing this given they're currently running it off an 8 year old wheezing tower running Windows 7 with 4GB RAM and are not complaining but obviously don't want to underspec. How does this sound:

ProLiant DL360e GEN8
2x 2Ghz hex core Xeons
16GB RAM
Samsung enterprise SSD 240GB for the OS
4x600GB RAID10 to start off with, with 4 extra bays if upgrade is required
Dual PSUs
Dual NIC
Windows Server Essentials and put them on a domain.

 

[Moltuae]

I'm a bit shy of big overspeccing this given they're currently running it off an 8 year old wheezing tower running Windows 7 with 4GB RAM and are not complaining but obviously don't want to underspec. How does this sound:

ProLiant DL360e GEN8
2x 2Ghz hex core Xeons
16GB RAM
Samsung enterprise SSD 240GB for the OS
4x600GB RAID10 to start off with, with 4 extra bays if upgrade is required
Dual PSUs
Dual NIC
Windows Server Essentials and put them on a domain.

I'd probably go for a 2U server, space permitting. The fans are usually larger and quieter in a 2U and there's more room for expansion. I'd probably put at least a quad NIC in too. My personal favourite for used rack-mount servers is the HP NC364T -- good reliable NIC that works well with Hyper-V and Windows Server teaming for link aggregation. I'd also go with at least 32GB RAM, more if you're planning any virtualisation later. I usually go for a minimum of 128GB RAM, if it's going to be hosting a couple of virtual server instances, plus another RAID1/10 volume for storing the VHDs.

Dual PSUs is a good worthwhile addition but only if each PSU is rated high enough to run the server alone, otherwise the server will go down if one PSU fails.

 

[MobileTechie]

I'd probably go for a 2U server, space permitting. The fans are usually larger and quieter in a 2U and there's more room for expansion. I'd probably put at least a quad NIC in too. My personal favourite for used rack-mount servers is the HP NC364T -- good reliable NIC that works well with Hyper-V and Windows Server teaming for link aggregation. I'd also go with at least 32GB RAM, more if you're planning any virtualisation later. I usually go for a minimum of 128GB RAM, if it's going to be hosting a couple of virtual server instances, plus another RAID1/10 volume for storing the VHDs.

Dual PSUs is a good worthwhile addition but only if each PSU is rated high enough to run the server alone, otherwise the server will go down if one PSU fails.

Cool OK so I'll look at a larger unit and up the RAM and NICs. At the moment I'm thinking of two Xeon E2430L 2Ghz CPUs - sound OK? I'm thinking the CPUs are not going to bottleneck things here?

They've agreed on going to a domain setup and upgrading the LAN (found they're running a1 10/100 switch). I need to look into the virtualisation side of things. All my other servers are straight installs.

They've agreed, in principle, to put in a Datto for backup which is good news.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Honestly...putting just a server OS on an SSD..the end users never enjoy the benefit. Clients work from the data volume of a server. Having the OS on an SSD allows the server maintenance guy to enjoy faster windows updates and a reboot once a month or once every couple of months. But the day to day to day to day to day grind by all the staff..they're working from the data volume (currently a RAID 10 which based on 600 gig sizes appears to thankfully be at least SAS).

I'd probably give the option of one all SAS server and one all SSD server.
All SAS...have options of a pair of smaller drives RAID 1 up front and a larger pair of drives RAID 1 (more budget server) or 4 or more drives in RAID 10 on the back (medium priced server)
And then quote an all SSD solution. Might even shave the price doing pair of smaller SAS up front RAID 1 and a pair of larger SSD RAID 1 in the back.

I would put more RAM in her.

 

[Moltuae]

At the moment I'm thinking of two Xeon E2430L 2Ghz CPUs - sound OK? I'm thinking the CPUs are not going to bottleneck things here?

Those should be ok. For most uses, CPU speed has little impact on system performance. I'd focus more on drive speed and ensuring you have enough physical drives to create separate volumes for the most drive-intensive stuff. For virtualisation, having plenty of CPU cores is useful, but you should be ok with 2 x 6 (24 virtual/threads).

If you do go down the virtualisation route, you'll need Windows Server Standard Ed. You're allowed 2 VM instances with Standard Ed. There should be no roles installed on the host (except Hyper-V), so you'll likely want to make one DC/DHCP VM and a second VM for everything else. I find that setup works well for budget installations. If you need to split roles further later, you can purchase another licence and add another virtual server.

 

[MobileTechie]

Brilliant. Thanks for help