Selling custom-built computers - Can I install windows on them?

[pc-quebec]

Most rouges can detect VM's so now I use a real system.

a virus in a host may destroy a VM , but a virus in a vm have no way to see the host, ( an probably by aware of it) unless you share a folder in the host and they are on the same network. It's very easy to use a separate nic card for the "at risk VM" connect it to a second router, you don't do your at risk work on the host you do it in the VM.

I just make very few mouse click to replace the contaminated VM by another one...

 

[MrUnknown]

There are ways to detect running in a VM.

A lot of malware/viruses will try to detect a VM and will not actually infect the system. This helps prevent analysis of what the virus is doing and what you need to do to remove it.

You are right though, a virus can not escape a VM, but the virus can detect one. This is what he was referring to.

 

[pc-quebec]

You are right though, a virus can not escape a VM, but the virus can detect one. This is what he was referring to.

It was irrelevant, as I was suggesting a VM solution for his risky work, he said he prefer a bare metal OS install because it’s risky to get the VM infected, who care, it's in the VM he make the risky work, if the host stay clean he just re clone the VM and voilà, take only few click instead of the shore to reinstall an OS. Anyway, many many years ago I was reinstalling the OS, after I pass on the ghost stage, and now it's the VM time...


anyway I will not use a pirated Windows solution in my shop. it's 28 years I made a good living with Microsoft products, I will not start to cheat them .

I notice this forum have a lot of tread on how to use,, find pirated software...

 

[vdub12]

It was irrelevant, as I was suggesting a VM solution for his risky work, he said he prefer a bare metal OS install because it’s risky to get the VM infected, who care, it's in the VM he make the risky work, if the host stay clean he just re clone the VM and voilà, take only few click instead of the shore to reinstall an OS. Anyway, many many years ago I was reinstalling the OS, after I pass on the ghost stage, and now it's the VM time...

anyway I will not use a pirated Windows solution in my shop. it's 28 years I made a good living with Microsoft products, I will not start to cheat them .

I notice this forum have a lot of tread on how to use,, find pirated software...

I think you are missing the point. I don't use a real system because I am afraid to infect a VM, that's kind of the point. I am also not worried about my host OS, I am a Linux user.

I use a real system because modern rouges use the VM's device drivers to detect that it being executed on a VM and will not install. The rouge makers do not want us to analyze there software and the most common way people use to do this was with VM's. To make it simpler for me I just have a dedicated system now that I infect. It was a used system that I got in for recycling but I could not sell it because it has bad caps. It runs great though and I figured it could serve me well just getting infected over and over again.

On the subject of pirated software I don't see what you talking about. This forum is not full of posts on how to pirate software. If fact most of the time when it comes up we educate the poster on the use of licensed software. Just as we did here. In all the time I have spent on these forums I have never seen a single thread talking about how to find and use pirated software. So I have no idea where your getting that.

 

[Jake77444]

I notice this forum have a lot of tread on how to use,, find pirated software...

Are you reading the same forum as the rest of us?

 

[mobomojo]

I notice this forum have a lot of tread on how to use,, find pirated software...

Yeah, exactly where here are you seeing these threads? I've learned a shitload of stuff from hanging out at Technibble, but finding and using pirated software is certainly not taught here.

 

[TimJacobs]

I notice this forum have a lot of tread on how to use,, find pirated software...

Yeah, can I have some of what ever you are on??

Pirated software is NOT tolerated here.

 

[Amoed]

Apparently, you have to be very careful with MS. The list of requirements to sell the system is also a bit confusing. I only say this because I work for a company who buys older business equipment and resells it after cleaning, repairing, and reloading the systems. The company is now being sued by MS. Not only is the license a big deal, but you must also provide the original media with it. I'll give you an example of what we used to do.

We would get in, let's say 20 Dells, all with the XP Pro license. We would load one with all the drivers from an original Dell XP Pro disk, then upload the image to our server. Then we would load 5 at a time from the server. We then changed the product keys and reactivated them. so far, so good.

But, apparently we didn't send the disk with each PC we sold, so we got slammed. I'm still working on all this as it was thrown to me to get this all straightened out, so i'm looking for help on it myself, but i post this to hopefully help anyone out.

If you don't have the original COA AND Recovery Media, you have to get an OEM License and disk. MS has a Registered Refurbisher Program that you may want to look into as well.

all that being said, is anyone an actual expert on this sort of thing that could help me answer some questions?

Thanks!

 

[Martyn]

Apparently, you have to be very careful with MS. The list of requirements to sell the system is also a bit confusing. I only say this because I work for a company who buys older business equipment and resells it after cleaning, repairing, and reloading the systems. The company is now being sued by MS. Not only is the license a big deal, but you must also provide the original media with it. I'll give you an example of what we used to do.

We would get in, let's say 20 Dells, all with the XP Pro license. We would load one with all the drivers from an original Dell XP Pro disk, then upload the image to our server. Then we would load 5 at a time from the server. We then changed the product keys and reactivated them. so far, so good.

But, apparently we didn't send the disk with each PC we sold, so we got slammed. I'm still working on all this as it was thrown to me to get this all straightened out, so i'm looking for help on it myself, but i post this to hopefully help anyone out.

If you don't have the original COA AND Recovery Media, you have to get an OEM License and disk. MS has a Registered Refurbisher Program that you may want to look into as well.

all that being said, is anyone an actual expert on this sort of thing that could help me answer some questions?

Thanks!

Interesting. How does this work if you just sell a computer on with no disk and no recovery partition but with the original coa intact?

 

[SmithFamilyDesigns]

Exactly what he described is his post. They absolutely require original media or recovery media with a refurb coa.

 

[Kitten Kong]

Interesting. How does this work if you just sell a computer on with no disk and no recovery partition but with the original coa intact?

There in lies the problem Martyn. Seeing as MS would view that pc as a refurb pc, it would require a disc and or recovery partition.

That is what my fight has been with MS about. We have the original COA, we can install the OS with our discs, the machine gets activated, so what is the problem?


My initial question to MS was if a client comes in with say a HP laptop running Vista, or a Dell running Win 7, and the drive requires a reinstallation of windows; due to file corruption or virus issues, as long as I am using my clients COA, can I use my own hologrammed installation media. I have purchased copies of all versions of Vista, and all versions of Windows 7. (Which has cost me an incredible amount of money. Which if what you say is correct, is now wasted!).

I would not be using my COA, but my clients, which is attached to the case, or laptop. My own OEM media will activate on the clients machine, using their COA.

To be pointed towards this.

Can I create my own recovery disks and sell these with the computer systems that I build? I have heard that direct OEMs can do this, so why can't I?

A. No. System builders may not offer a recovery solution with removable media (e.g., a recovery CD) because it is prohibited by the terms of the Microsoft OEM System Builder License. A full version of the Windows operating system is provided on a hologram CD in the Microsoft System Builder pack for each end user, and the CD must be transferred to the end user at the time of distribution. The hologram CD acts as the recovery media.

However, system builders can offer a hard disk recovery solution in addition to, but not as a replacement for, the hologram CD. Third-party software companies can also help system builders do this. Learn more about the technical requirements for this type of hard disk-based recovery solution .pdf 1.8 MB.

System builders are bound by the Microsoft OEM System Builder License, affixed to the side of the System Builder packs, which is different than the direct agreements utilized by direct OEMs. The licensing terms for system builders and large OEMs are different because they are designed to address the specific needs of each community. The right to create recovery media is limited to the OEMs with direct agreements; however, these OEMs are also bound by other contractual obligations. The OEM System Builder License is designed to make it easy for system builders to acquire and distribute genuine Microsoft software, and accordingly, its terms are different.

I emailed back saying that..

This does not in any way shape or form, mean I wish to create my own recovery discs, and sell them with the systems I build. I already know that I cannot do this.

I would like a more in depth reply to the query posted please, if at all possible.

I finally received a mail off the guy last week stating.

The web link I sent you as you correctly pointed out is with regards to selling the recovery disks with the systems you build, however, the same rule applies even if you are using your own media just for reinstallation and using the customer’s COA.

Hence, it always has to be the client’s original media and key.

In exceptional circumstances where the distributor is no longer in business can the customer contact Microsoft® Direct Services for replacement media.

If you have any more questions please give us a call on 0844 800 2400. Our lines are open Monday to Friday 8am - 6pm. Of course if you prefer, please send me an email.


Basically they claim we have to use the clients own media and coa. If there is no media available, then we HAVE to contact the Manu for recovery media. We cannot use our own installation media and the clients coa.

They claim that if the manu does not have the recovery media due to age etc, in exceptional circumstances they will send (sell) media out to us.

I tried that a couple of weeks back. Saying that I needed media for x machine. I contacted the Manu, but due to the age of the machine they no longer stock it.

Reply was, what is the coa details, is it OEM or retail. Told them the details. To be told, oh sorry thats a COA licence. (No sh!t sherlock), yes I know that.

Sorry we can only send recovery media for a retail licence!. In order to reinstall the OS on that machine, the only option available is to purchase Win 7 Ult, and use the downgrade rights to utilise the original COA.

If the machine is Vista, then forget that, as its not available for sale now (officially).

One possible way out, is to 'refurb' the machine. But in order to be able to do this, the machine can not belong to the original owner. It would have to be 'donated' or sold to you. For you to do the refurb, get a refurb licence (packs of 5 min at £6 each), and then sell or donate that pc. Again you cannot sell or donate it back to the original owner.

What we also officially cannot do, is to build a new computer, install windows, activate it, and then install our usual programs. Reason for this, is the client has to be the one to agree to the EULA.

We have to build a iso, using a OPK, (which you can alter to include your chosen programs - same as the cookie cutters do). Then simply image that over, so the client accepts the eula, and not us.

Edit to add: AMOED - I am not a expert by any means, but I will help with any questions you have. I will only be able to give advice on what I have researched and my email conversations with MS though. Please ask the questions in your own thread (Just so this thread does not get hijacked). Many thanks

 

[Xander]

Too bad that we can't just have the customer sign off saying that they provided us with their original media so that we could reinstall.

 

[Amoed]

Edit to add: AMOED - I am not a expert by any means, but I will help with any questions you have. I will only be able to give advice on what I have researched and my email conversations with MS though. Please ask the questions in your own thread (Just so this thread does not get hijacked). Many thanks

Thanks! Started a thread for this. Im sure there are others already out there, but search turned up nothing for me. Link to thread here
http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?p=222488#post222488

 

[TopLevelComp]

-Snip-

I'm sorry, but I'm going to do what is best for my customer and not best for the pockets of Microsoft. If I get caught, so-be-it, I'll know that in the end the customer was treated as they should've been.

Microsoft is just getting way to strict about this. They do contracts with large OEMs because their community is different, when it's not. They wonder why Microsoft is always under the crosshairs of another company, it's because of stuff like this.

I wish they'd get their heads out of their asses and work with small business like us for these types of situations instead of saying "Just buy another copy of Windows."

 

[Kitten Kong]

I whole heartedly agree with you there. I for one will continue with my fight with M$, and do what is right by my clients. I will not be purchasing recovery media (unless I absolutely require it.. read coa smudged beyond recognition).

What I stated above is honest and true. Why should we have to tell out clients that it could cost over £200 to reinstall windows on their sub £300 machine!. See my rant on the reply to Amoed's question in the other thread.

 

[Amoed]

It does seem a bit harsh. While i am a bit of a tech, the business i work for buys old equipment, cleans them up, fixes them, and makes them ready for public use. This keeps a lot of IT trash from hitting the landfills as well as providing a quality product to customers who either can't afford a GOOD new system or simply don't need all the junk that comes with a new one. And MS wants us to pay double for a product that has already been bought! In other words, if Dell Pays MS, the customer pays Dell, it should end there. Instead, they want us to re-pay for another license and labels it as pirating. We DO NOT steal anything as we use the correct licenses and the original disk. The only things we may have done wrong were not give the customer the disk (which we were unaware of at the time) and we loaded one image to our server to pre-load all the other machines (after which we change the product key to the proper one). In any scenario, it always came up as genuine according to MS. So, the company never thought twice about it. Shame on us for not doing our homework, but damn, that's a lot of homework for what we thought was simple.

Sorry for the rant, there's a few weeks of frustration in there.

 

[Kitten Kong]

So, the company never thought twice about it. Shame on us for not doing our homework, but damn, that's a lot of homework for what we thought was simple.

Sorry for the rant, there's a few weeks of frustration in there.

That's the main issue I think. Unless you actually search through M$ website long and hard, and know what your looking for, you don't know your in the wrong.

It would of been nice of M$ to say, look guys there's a new thing you should be doing. Instead of just sitting back, saying and doing nothing, and us techs falling on the wrong side of the coin so to speak.

I didn't know about the MS refurb program until, a member on here mentioned it. Since then I have been doing my homework, and posting what little I know of the problem and issues caused.

Just as I didn't know about the issues re licensing, and what we can and can't do. It's all hidden away deep within the website. Not easily found again. Again what I know is from homework, and asking the MS reps - even though conflicting advice is given. They do not know them selves what we can and cannot do!. It's beyond a joke, and our clients are at the end of it all. That's what galls me.

</end rant>

 

[Amoed]

yeah, well, the major 6 digit lawsuit says we should have know, so spread the word so it doesn't happen again.

 

[sys-eng]

Apparently, you have to be very careful with MS. The list of requirements to sell the system is also a bit confusing. I only say this because I work for a company who buys older business equipment and resells it after cleaning, repairing, and reloading the systems. The company is now being sued by MS. Not only is the license a big deal, but you must also provide the original media with it. I'll give you an example of what we used to do.

We would get in, let's say 20 Dells, all with the XP Pro license. We would load one with all the drivers from an original Dell XP Pro disk, then upload the image to our server. Then we would load 5 at a time from the server. We then changed the product keys and reactivated them. so far, so good.

But, apparently we didn't send the disk with each PC we sold, so we got slammed. I'm still working on all this as it was thrown to me to get this all straightened out, so i'm looking for help on it myself, but i post this to hopefully help anyone out.

If you don't have the original COA AND Recovery Media, you have to get an OEM License and disk. MS has a Registered Refurbisher Program that you may want to look into as well.

all that being said, is anyone an actual expert on this sort of thing that could help me answer some questions?
Thanks!

It seems that creating a recovery partition satisfies their requirement. That is all anyone gets when they purchase a refurbished computer from Dell or Lenovo.

If the software license is assigned to a single computer (not Volume License Agreement), the ownership of the software transfers with the hardware. That is why I can purchase a PC from a neighbor and do not have to buy another license for the OS, or Office or even BIOS. The license is not leased or rented.

If you join a program with Microsoft such as a reseller or refurbisher program, you may have to agree to some special agreement that does indeed obligate you to a binding agreement with Microsoft that many not be in your best interest.
For example from the Microsoft website:
"If you build and sell new PCs or servers—as few as one or as many as hundreds per year—you are a system builder, and Microsoft invites you to join its partner network."