Reason #1 Why I prefer linux

Let's be honest though... Linux doesn't always update properly, just like Windows doesn't. They all run into problems from time to time. I switched to OSX for a while because I was so frustrated with Windows but soon found that it has its own glitches. Apps and the underlying OSX still froze. Same rule applies to all OS's for me: (1) Get it set up and updated with the core functions that you need (2) don't mess around or trial other stuff on it.
 
I'd say that Linux and OS doesn't have the same issues with the update process itself that Windows has. In fact the only OSX update issue I've seen that wasn't a hardware issue is when a non-existing update server was manually set.

And Windows does seem to have a talent lately with releasing updates that cause glaringly obvious bugs in every single computer that installs it. i.e. those two bad recent Outlook updates, installing the surface 4 pen drivers for the surface 3
 
When you are using PPA's mixed with the standard repos for Linux you can expect things to break. It also depends on what flavor of linux you are running. If you have the opinion that Linux Updates are problematic and your using something like Fedora linux then it just shows your missundertanding of linux. Flavors like Fedora are cutting edge and test beds for software. You should be prepared to see things break. That being said, Linux is far better at updates than windows could ever be. It is quick and very accurate. Most times a reboot is just not warranted and at the most - depending on what was updated - you may have to logout/login for changes to take effect.
 
Sorry I use the "Latest Posts" tab in Tapatalk and didn't realize this was in a forum dedicated to Linux. Sorry I said anything. Carry on...

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Looking around though. Seems a little lonely. Which make sense because Technibble is generally about making a living in I.T....

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TurricanII said:
Let's be honest though... Linux doesn't always update properly, just like Windows doesn't. They all run into problems from time to time. I switched to OSX for a while because I was so frustrated with Windows but soon found that it has its own glitches. Apps and the underlying OSX still froze. Same rule applies to all OS's for me: (1) Get it set up and updated with the core functions that you need (2) don't mess around or trial other stuff on it.
Click to expand...

Not sure the problem is the OS at that point.
 
I'll have to disagree about Linux having the same issues with updates as Windows.

My day job PC running Manjaro:
[kevin@kww-tech ~]$ sudo tune2fs -l /dev/sda1 | grep -i Created
Filesystem created: Wed Mar 25 11:04:55 2015

Manjaro is an Arch based rolling distro and has system updates installed when available with very little issues as can be seen by the 2015-03-25 install date. For my job a super stable O/S is a must.

From my home server running Xubuntu 14.04:
root@garage:/home/kevin# tune2fs -l /dev/sdf1 | grep -i Created
Filesystem created: Sun Jul 20 17:34:28 2014

This server has also had 2 motherboard swaps without a O/S reinstall since 2014-07-20 :)
 
Last edited:
sudo tune2fs -l /dev/sda1 | grep -i Created
Filesystem created: Wed Apr 8 16:57:03 2015

Ive not ever had a problem with updates. Of course I am not using something like Fedora where you would.
 
I don't see what all of your points are. Sure, I have had problems with Windows updates, but at least those rollback without too much of a headache. The real problem is when you have hundreds of computers at an enterprise level and they are taking forever or stuck at the Welcome screen or something along those lines.

That said, the problem with Linux is that there are no major management tools such as Group Policy to manage the settings, globally make it do automatic updates, configure browsers, etc. You cannot automatically deploy applications to desktops, etc. These are the types of problems.

Really, the only thing you can do is write scripts to reach out via SSH and do things to a number of computers, or you could make something like a cron job, or script that runs during logon etc. Even then you need to make whatever automated process you code, mount an NSS volume (or similar) and then execute other scripts to actually DO things and automate tasks. While it is not impossible, there is simply no built-in functionality like there is for Windows.

Now, I personally HAVE seen Linux upgrades go bad, packages fail to install due to dependencies, etc., so the GNU Operating System is hardly perfect. As far as Linux goes, it's just a Kernel... Everyone talks about it being better, but it has LITTLE to do with all that other stuff except that all the modules need to be updated for all of your devices when the Kernel is changed out.

When was the last time you upgraded Windows (including the CORE Kernel) and needed to replace ALL your drivers?
A: When you went from XP to Vista or later! (This is the reason that was such a headache)

Chances are even going from Windows 8.1 to 10 and 99% of all the drivers will still work... Hence, it is a pretty minor endeavor.

*********

While there are a LOT of great things about Linux (I personally like CentOS and RHEL), I wouldn't start a comparison that it is better because the way it handles updates... That's just simply untrue. Look at how many countless updates Microsoft handles without trouble... Heck, the whole system is more or less replaced on a regular basis now with few difficulties.

Now sure, this has little to do with Linux in that each Distribution handles updates differently, but I am just saying that is NOT a good place to point the finger and say it's better.

Other issues is that although the foundation of the GNU Operating system is firmly planted, nothing is polished. Look at FreeRADIUS and OpenLDAP. NOBODY has ever implemented a true competitor to Active Directory and Microsoft's NPS with it.


************

Talking about file-systems, my own Desktop computer at home was formatted initially when Windows 7 came out back in 2009. It has been through two (2) motherboards, one a different chipset/proc (AMD to Intel), new RAM, whole new Array, then upgraded Hard disks, etc. NOT ONE ORIGINAL PART (except maybe the chassis), OS upgrade, etc. NOT reformatted in eight (8) years.
 
I dont have any 1000 user clients. Heck, Iam small business oriented. I service about 20 workstations or less. If you want answers to large deployments of updates or programs on multiple workstations from the server you can ask any of the large internet companies and they would probably be glad to point you resources to accomplish this. Google, Amazon, Microsoft (yep they run linux servers) and anyone else has some deployment setup. Should I be tasked to do what you say linux lacks then I would just create a simple script on the server to ssh an apt-get install or update/upgrade command to the ips of these workstations. You could pull the ips from a file and have the script do all the work. You can even set it up as a cron job to run at any time you want. That is not a difficult thing to do.

Deployment across a network and other things like DNS, DHCP, exchange ect.. can be done with IceWarp. They make a version for linux because they know most servers run linux. IceWarp is a direct replacement for SBS. I am actually checking into that right now for a client.

Windows is more difficult to manage as far as updates go. First off all, There are a lot of problems with windows update service on the server. I know this from experience. I have used up countless ours (like others) trying to weed out all the issues with its currupted databases and incognito error messages. On just updating a workstation it takes a lot more time to update and the constant reboots. Then there is the -= Oops =- update loop that is fun. Just when you want to get something done you turn on your computer and have to wait for configurations. Windows has constant update failures ect... With linux its one click and your going to be done unless you have been compiling/installing manually or from some obscure repo. Besides, Linux only updates the code that needs to be updated in files. This is much faster and less of a download experience.

As per upgrading the kernel - Why would you want to do that? Unless you have something seriously broken or some feature you want you can run on the regular kernel that came with your flavor of linux.

For me, Linux is better thought out and easier to service than windows ever wish they could. That is my personal opinion. Now, I am not trying to pick any fights or start a flame war. There are things in linux that can be difficult. Things like unsupported hardware. But most everything runs great and I never run into any type of update issues even with all my clients that are running it.

Insert: --> I know linux is just the kernel. But for simplicity sake 'linux' is referred to as the kernel and opensource software bundled and installed on your computer/server.
Thanks for your reply.
 
Hmmm...where to start?

First, I would say that it's all just silicon and metal...how you control it is based on the use case or project.

"That said, the problem with Linux is that there are no major management tools such as Group Policy to manage the settings, globally make it do automatic updates, configure browsers, etc. You cannot automatically deploy applications to desktops, etc. These are the types of problems."
Auto deployment and management is perfectly available through OSS and "polished" solutions like RH Satellite, or SpaceWalk if you don't feel like paying for it.

This is not true, there are several policy management systems that you can use. Depends on the use case, but "(I personally like CentOS and RHEL)"...then you are obviously not familiar with the available options.

"Other issues is that although the foundation of the GNU Operating system is firmly planted, nothing is polished. Look at FreeRADIUS and OpenLDAP. NOBODY has ever implemented a true competitor to Active Directory and Microsoft's NPS with it."

Firmly planted but responds to updates 80% faster than Windows...not to mention the applications stacks have to be updated as well. RHEL is ultra pro-active on their updates...and it includes all applications in their repositories.

Firmly planted but has implemented two major core updates across the board in the last year that deviate from it's Unix-like roots, and provided a better process/system/device management system?

"NOBODY has ever implemented a true competitor to AD and MS NPS"...well, the obvious one here is that MSAD is based on LDAP. There are solutions (commercial, aka "polished") that can exceed the capabilities of an AD implementation. RHIMS for example. On that note, LDAP and FreeRadius are used by almost every ISP and telecom provider (because you don't know, doesn't make it true).

Linux based systems are everywhere, so you might just get used to it. This argument ended a couple years ago with Windows 7...not that it really matters since it's a desktop OS.
 
coffee said:
I dont have any 1000 user clients. Heck, Iam small business oriented. I service about 20 workstations or less. If you want answers to large deployments of updates or programs on multiple workstations from the server you can ask any of the large internet companies and they would probably be glad to point you resources to accomplish this. Google, Amazon, Microsoft (yep they run linux servers) and anyone else has some deployment setup. Should I be tasked to do what you say linux lacks then I would just create a simple script on the server to ssh an apt-get install or update/upgrade command to the ips of these workstations. You could pull the ips from a file and have the script do all the work. You can even set it up as a cron job to run at any time you want. That is not a difficult thing to do.

Deployment across a network and other things like DNS, DHCP, exchange ect.. can be done with IceWarp. They make a version for linux because they know most servers run linux. IceWarp is a direct replacement for SBS. I am actually checking into that right now for a client.

Windows is more difficult to manage as far as updates go. First off all, There are a lot of problems with windows update service on the server. I know this from experience. I have used up countless ours (like others) trying to weed out all the issues with its currupted databases and incognito error messages. On just updating a workstation it takes a lot more time to update and the constant reboots. Then there is the -= Oops =- update loop that is fun. Just when you want to get something done you turn on your computer and have to wait for configurations. Windows has constant update failures ect... With linux its one click and your going to be done unless you have been compiling/installing manually or from some obscure repo. Besides, Linux only updates the code that needs to be updated in files. This is much faster and less of a download experience.

As per upgrading the kernel - Why would you want to do that? Unless you have something seriously broken or some feature you want you can run on the regular kernel that came with your flavor of linux.

For me, Linux is better thought out and easier to service than windows ever wish they could. That is my personal opinion. Now, I am not trying to pick any fights or start a flame war. There are things in linux that can be difficult. Things like unsupported hardware. But most everything runs great and I never run into any type of update issues even with all my clients that are running it.

Insert: --> I know linux is just the kernel. But for simplicity sake 'linux' is referred to as the kernel and opensource software bundled and installed on your computer/server.
Thanks for your reply.
Click to expand...


That's the difference... I DO have clients who run thousands of uses and computers, and they use Windows for a reason. The biggest difference is that Windows needs to be regularly rebooted because of the updates applied to it... Linux does too, when you upgrade the kernel, but that's not often.

Microsoft runs very few Linux servers. The vast majority of everything they have on the Internet runs on IIS, which is the biggest competitor for Apache, the #1 application running on Linux. While Apache DOES have #1 market share for Web Servers, Microsoft is still #1 in the Enterprise. For example, the real world uses Microsoft Office to exchange documents and has security requirements to use Microsoft exchange (i.e. O365). While I am not saying IceWarp is not a valid email system, I am just saying virtually nobody uses it... it's got to have even less market share than Novell GroupWise, which itself was actually a pretty darned good product.

Sure, you could pull IPs from a file, etc. or maybe do a ping sweep, but in reality, what you are still lacking is a powerful, production database like Active Directory to tie everything together in a cohesive manner. While I agree you could run your scripts, each script would need to be typed up for each deployment etc., and you would need to use the same passwords to admin the systems individually; since, again they are NOT in a unified directory that could take care of the authentication.

Windows Update is actually pretty bulletproof if you use Windows Server Update Services (WSUS) as it is designed. The biggest difference is it is simple point & click to approve updates (or you can auto-approve them). Then Group Policy configures the workstations to point to the proper update servers. The whole process words very well. In contrast, you certainly have no out-of-the-box GUI update tools for large, collections of centrally-manged Linux based systems, so again the Linux update process is more lacking in an Enterprise environment.

It is also a fact that most of the world uses the proprietary Microsoft Office file format for basic business documents that comprise of text and/or spreadsheets though admittedly PDF is pretty popular for sharing them. Now, I know LIbre office can open these documents, but it is NOT its native format, so making changes may or may not really look right when sent back to a Genuine Microsoft Office user. This is a bit off topic though because we are not comparing Microsoft Office to Open Source, GNU Office products. Update loops? Really? Sure it happens, but out of maybe 6000 computes, we might get two (2) a year that something that bad happens to on Windows systems. Cryptic Error Messages, lol... ever read the Linux Error messages? They usually reference a missing dependency etc. At least with Windows Update Error messages, a simple Internet search on Google more than likely yields a LOT more help given the numbers of folks likely running the same system having the same problem.

I am just saying Linux is great... Particularly for independent systems and/or hosting web servers such as Apache, but what it is NOT is a desktop OS ready for Enterprise deployment. I am NOT saying it is impossible just that Windows has ALL of the tools to do just exactly this right out of the box. Linux also does NOT have production productivity software though O365 works fine from Chrome, which IS supported on Linux now, and is the ONLY web browser (aside from IE & Edge) that is Enterprise ready.

1. Make Linux truely manageable via Active Directory and/r make its own LDAP based directory and suites of management tools that will run on Linux, Windows, and Mac for it.
2. Create tons of GUI tools for managing DNS, DHCP, Group Policies, and everything else for it.
3. Get manufacturers to release things like Exchange Server (or the world to adopt something else)
4. Get real Microsoft Office for it... (or the World to support open formats like Libre)

Then it is ready for desktop prime time.
 
Dustin Hennis said:
Hmmm...where to start?

First, I would say that it's all just silicon and metal...how you control it is based on the use case or project.

"That said, the problem with Linux is that there are no major management tools such as Group Policy to manage the settings, globally make it do automatic updates, configure browsers, etc. You cannot automatically deploy applications to desktops, etc. These are the types of problems."
Auto deployment and management is perfectly available through OSS and "polished" solutions like RH Satellite, or SpaceWalk if you don't feel like paying for it.

This is not true, there are several policy management systems that you can use. Depends on the use case, but "(I personally like CentOS and RHEL)"...then you are obviously not familiar with the available options.

"Other issues is that although the foundation of the GNU Operating system is firmly planted, nothing is polished. Look at FreeRADIUS and OpenLDAP. NOBODY has ever implemented a true competitor to Active Directory and Microsoft's NPS with it."

Firmly planted but responds to updates 80% faster than Windows...not to mention the applications stacks have to be updated as well. RHEL is ultra pro-active on their updates...and it includes all applications in their repositories.

Firmly planted but has implemented two major core updates across the board in the last year that deviate from it's Unix-like roots, and provided a better process/system/device management system?

"NOBODY has ever implemented a true competitor to AD and MS NPS"...well, the obvious one here is that MSAD is based on LDAP. There are solutions (commercial, aka "polished") that can exceed the capabilities of an AD implementation. RHIMS for example. On that note, LDAP and FreeRadius are used by almost every ISP and telecom provider (because you don't know, doesn't make it true).

Linux based systems are everywhere, so you might just get used to it. This argument ended a couple years ago with Windows 7...not that it really matters since it's a desktop OS.
Click to expand...


Don't get me wrong... I like Linux too, and I have dabbled in it on the Desktop using it as my full-time desktop for years...

Okay, so you have little Apps like SpaceWalk... That might be front-end to some of the scripting nightmares, but it still doesn't have a cohesive directory like Active Directory. It isn't built from the ground-up to be configured the way Windows systems are. Say you want to Lock Down certain settings like the way users' configure a browser ... the very philosophy of Linux and GNU is freedom for the user who is using the system. A completely different paradigm than the Windows core beliefs that the system owns you. What I am saying is the unique flexibility is simply not there.

I am NOT however saying that an admin cannot configure a Linux system the way he or she wants it then deploy them all the same and save a ton of money. Heck, Lowes has an internal Linux system. Looks like it runs their terminal app, Firefox to their website, and has a little Unity dock on the side. It's very streamlined to where the users can merely do various pre-defined tasks. The difference is this isn't an after deployment configuration... it is that these systems were put in place stand-alone to work this way.

If they want to make a change, don't think they can simply open a GUI Policy editor and with a few clicks have everything different at all their stores....

LDAP is a standard much like X.500. No Doubt OpenLDAP is a powerful engine, but without a polished schema used by countless manufactuers and software vendors, it's more or less un-utilized. For example, nobody who uses Active Directory has to define what exactly a User object actually is to the system. There is a pre-defined schema for that. As for FreeRADIUS, it IS indeed used to authenticate people to a lot of Public WiFi places with logon names and passwords, but it is again NOT used much in Enterprise environments which need something that integrates directly with their Directory. Being 80% faster doesn't matter when it doesn't meet the use-case necessary. If it works great for an ISP - that's a nice use-case, and they should stick with it.

Lastly RHIMS is NOT a true competitor for Active Directory. The difference is EVERY major product sold to enterprises plugs directly into Active Directory no problem. If I buy a major helpdesk product like Footprints, Dell KACE, etc, it plugs in. Zenworks, Altiris, Specopts, Lansweeper, Solar Winds Orion, Manage Engine, Exchange, etc. They ALL have Active Directory connectors. How about my Palo Alto Firewall? Guess what... Right out of the box it integrates with Active Directory for User-Agent-Authentication... turns out it doesn't play at all with RHIMS or even Novell eDirectory/NDS.


While I agree there ARE other solutions, Microsoft right now simply works the best with the most vendors and support right out of the box.
 
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