Question about Domain ownership & leasing usage of domain to customer

[tankman1989]

Greetings,

I have a business client who had a business and wanted to get a website set up so he asked me to register 2 domains. I did this under the Yahoo domain server and after 6 months or so, maybe a year, the client wanted to change the name of the business. He told me the new domain name and that he wanted the "surrounding domains" as well, so I registered 3 domains in total.

The customer has asked if it would be possible for me to transfer the domains over to his company so that he owned them and he would provide his own hosting. As till now I have provided hosting and email without issue (free for 3 years and only last year did I start charging $10/month & $35/domain name as Yahhoo charged me this). I think he wants "control" of the domains because he thinks he is going to save money or something. His new girlfriend who thinks she is a techie b/c he mom works in a tech department and got her a job doing graphics with her at a college. She seemed to know nothing about how computers or OS's work let a lone domain hosting.

So, this guy I feel wants to buy the domain names but I would rather make keep him as a client and start charging normal fees for the domain leasing and web hosting. His site gets anywhere from 600-1000 unique visits a month so his traffic is fair and has been growing consistently.

I look at the domains the same as real-estate, but they are intellectual property. I have no obligatoin to sell the domains but I want to come up with a fair price to charge for hosting and domain leasing.

How do the rest of you handle cases like this? How would you charge? Would you sell the domain as requested or do I have an obligation to sell? He could have registered the domains just as easily as I did, he knew where I had registered the first ones and he could have done the same. Now he want's to have them signed over for nothing and I don't think that is quite fair.

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[cmonova]

I would sell him the domain names at market value. You were providing the service to him and should of actually listed you as the "tech" person and him as the "owner" of the names. Now if you would of set them up from the beginning as a "lease" package then that could be different but you didn't.

Say you tell him no, not sure if his name is part of the URL or not but he could easily contact Yahoo or whaterver and explain to them what is happening and if they are like Google all it will require is a Drivers License, Business License, letter with mailing address and they will transfer over to him. I'd relate it to domain squating.

Charge for the domain names and tack on a "service fee" for the work involved with you have to register them "when he asked you to" and to transfer them.

 

[tankman1989]

I would sell him the domain names at market value. You were providing the service to him and should of actually listed you as the "tech" person and him as the "owner" of the names. Now if you would of set them up from the beginning as a "lease" package then that could be different but you didn't.

Say you tell him no, not sure if his name is part of the URL or not but he could easily contact Yahoo or whaterver and explain to them what is happening and if they are like Google all it will require is a Drivers License, Business License, letter with mailing address and they will transfer over to him. I'd relate it to domain squating.

Charge for the domain names and tack on a "service fee" for the work involved with you have to register them "when he asked you to" and to transfer them.

I don't see any of my hosting companies handing over any domain names to anyone, business license or not. People buy names on spec all the time and then lease or sell them at an inflated value. I'd like to see case precedent where anyone with a name or business license has won the right to use the domain from a properly paid for and licensed owner.

If I bought a piece of land that someone wanted to use for their business I would have 100% right to lease the land for whatever I chose to charge. I feel I can do the same here. There is no "squating". This is a business and I a m trying to run a business not a free service to help friends and associates.

I'm looking for what is a fair price to charge for hosting and domain leaseing per year. I don't have much of a desire to sell the domains as hosting and domain leasing is part of my business.

So, is there anyone out there that leases domain usage or offers hosting/email services? If so what are your prices?

 

[cmonova]

Well maybe you have not been doing it long enough. I have done it twice with Godaddy for customers that "their" so called web guy would not give their domain name back to them. It's actually a pretty easy process.

Your analogy of the land is off.....In the post you are the one that said "he asked me to register 2 domains"....Did he tell you to go pick out two names for yourself and register them? Or do you think maybe he was implying to register two names for his business?

I lease domains, offer hosting and provide email services but when a customer ask me to register a domain name I will list them as the "admin" of the domain and even do it
with all "their" details....

 

[Ccomp5950]

Say you tell him no, not sure if his name is part of the URL or not but he could easily contact Yahoo or whaterver and explain to them what is happening and if they are like Google all it will require is a Drivers License, Business License, letter with mailing address and they will transfer over to him. I'd relate it to domain squating.

There are a few more issues that have to be seen for domain name conflicts to be resolved. I've honestly not dealt with google over it but registrars are supposed to say "tough titties, go through the ICANN dispute proceedings or have fun in court."

As for what you should do, hand it over. No charge besides what the transfer fee costs or what have you. Make a backup of everything on his site. When he calls you in two weeks because everything is screwed up you will have something to fix from. Charge double.

 

[Paul Rodgers]

cmonova is right. Besides if you were to try and pull a stunt like that your client will go somewhere else and you will get a bad reputation.

 

[tankman1989]

Well maybe you have not been doing it long enough. I have done it twice with Godaddy for customers that "their" so called web guy would not give their domain name back to them. It's actually a pretty easy process.

Your analogy of the land is off.....In the post you are the one that said "he asked me to register 2 domains"....Did he tell you to go pick out two names for yourself and register them? Or do you think maybe he was implying to register two names for his business?

I lease domains, offer hosting and provide email services but when a customer ask me to register a domain name I will list them as the "admin" of the domain and even do it
with all "their" details....

I guess I should have made it more clear. He asked for the first 2 domains that were used for about 6 months. When he said he was changing business names, I took the imitative and registered them before someone esle could. I don't think he even had the business name set at that date. for the current domains I registered them myself knowing that he would use them and with the problems I have had in the past of searching for a domain and coming back a day later and it being registered, I decided to register the day I searched so that no one else could slip in and register the domain name.

Either way, there are a number of other companies in other states who have the same company name and I am sure they would be glad to own these domains. There is no way that anyone is going to "take" these from me simply because they have the same business name as my domain. That is totally ridiculous and it would not stand in a court of law. My money paid for the leasing of the domain and that makes me the legal owner for the length of the contract.

 

[tankman1989]

Why do so many people in the tech industry not understand the legal workings of the business world? It seems that many of you seem to think we are here to serve others at our own expense.

Tell me, why could this guy not have registered the domains and bought his own hosting plan? He could have but he didn't know how or have time or want to. So, I was there with my knowledge and expertise to do what he couldn't do. I know reap the benefits of that transaction and my forsight of making that purchase.

We all had the same opportunities and I should be rewarded for being "better" at doing what I do than he is (as it isn't his profession). There is nothing more to it than that. A court of law would rule in my favor as there is no case for the other side.

I think techies are so used to serving people that they get in a mindset that they don't have any "power" but you have to understand that your knowledge & expertise is your power and you have the right to charge what you can get for it.

 

[Ccomp5950]

cmonova is right.

No, actually he isn't.

http://www.icann.org/en/udrp/udrp.htm

All registrars must follow the the Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy (often referred to as the "UDRP"). Under the policy, most types of trademark-based domain-name disputes must be resolved by agreement, court action, or arbitration before a registrar will cancel, suspend, or transfer a domain name.

Meaning it has to go to arbitration, NO REGISTRAR will just hand over a domain otherwise they risk their contract with ICANN to operate as a registrar.

However it doesn't matter, ICANN will most likely award the domain to tankmans client if it should go that route. Tankman's chances of losing in arbitration are extremely high.

http://www.icann.org/en/udrp/udrp-policy-24oct99.htm

a. Applicable Disputes. You are required to submit to a mandatory administrative proceeding in the event that a third party (a "complainant") asserts to the applicable Provider, in compliance with the Rules of Procedure, that

(i) your domain name is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark or service mark in which the complainant has rights; and

(ii) you have no rights or legitimate interests in respect of the domain name; and

(iii) your domain name has been registered and is being used in bad faith.

In the administrative proceeding, the complainant must prove that each of these three elements are present.

b. Evidence of Registration and Use in Bad Faith. For the purposes of Paragraph 4(a)(iii), the following circumstances, in particular but without limitation, if found by the Panel to be present, shall be evidence of the registration and use of a domain name in bad faith:

(i) circumstances indicating that you have registered or you have acquired the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark or to a competitor of that complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of your documented out-of-pocket costs directly related to the domain name; or
[...]

it goes on, but you've already lost if they have any evidence of you leasing or renting the domain out to them specifically (receipts would work for evidence).

I lease a domain out to the cities and customers I've worked for, but if they asked for the domain my contract is void, I hand the domains over charging just my out of pocket expenses (usually nothing for transferring) and walk away.

 

[cmonova]

Ya you could of made it clearer. But, even this way you are explaining it I would give him his names for a small transfer fee.

"When he said he was changing business names, I took the initative and registered them before someone else could"....

I'm assuming he told you what the name was going to be. I don't think you just happen to guess what name he was changing to.

As far as "Why do so many people in the tech industry not understand the legal workings of the business world"...not only do I understand the legal workings of the business world but I am pretty damn successful at it. I also know the easiest way to become unsuccessful is to do what you are thinking of doing and that is why I pointed out the problems that can arise.

As far as what stands up in the court of law typically it never comes to that. Both times I have had to do it the holder of the domains did nothing and I have no doubt it's because they knew what they were doing was wrong

If you want to do it your way feel free but if you are serious about domain names and hosting for people this is the easiest way to make sure that does not work out too well for you.

Nobody is saying to "serve others at our own expense"...just be fair about it.

Ccomp5950...You are wrong, I have done it twice.
https://supportcenter.godaddy.com/DomainServices/ChangeRequestPage.aspx?ci=9107

Called them, filed out the form, sent documentation and name was moved into
new account. So yes it can be done.

 

[goldmercury]

Lets get down to brass tacks here. You want money he wants his domains. (did he pay you to set them up originally?)

Offer him a good rate on the hosting and you should be fine. Obviously you can get it hosted for almost free if you look in the right places but sell him the reasons you should pay (backups/uptime/spam filtering). I've not even going to ask why your using yahoo for hosting....

If he still wants ownership give him ownership with a "transfer fee" of lets say 1.5 times the hosting fee for a year.

1000 visitors / month is not much in the grand scheme of things. If this daughter is a real noob I would suggest you get friendly with her so when she fails in her tasks she'll come calling to you. Which will equal more $$ and everyone will be kept happy.

 

[Ccomp5950]

Ccomp5950...You are wrong, I have done it twice.
https://supportcenter.godaddy.com/DomainServices/ChangeRequestPage.aspx?ci=9107

Called them, filed out the form, sent documentation and name was moved into
new account. So yes it can be done.

That form you just linked is for updating emails or transferring domains to different accounts if you happen to be the registrant. It is not for resolving domain name disputes between two people.

If you used it as such you have grounds to have your domain name revoked, and whoever you took it from can sue godaddy and you will be required to defend them in court or pay their attorney fees.

I am requesting that Domain Services is either verifying registrant information and moving my domain name(s) into another account or verifying customer account information and updating my customer account email address. I certify and affirm that I am the registrant or account owner listed above, or, if not the registrant or account holder, I am the authorized requester of the registrant or account holder. As consideration for Domain Services fulfilling my request, I agree that Registrar shall have the right, in its sole discretion, to pursue any course of action with respect to any domain name(s) registered to the registrant listed above or products in the account, including, but not limited to, (1) placing any domain name(s) registered to the registrant listed above on hold, and/or (2) changing the registrant of record or any other account information for any such domain name(s) registered to the registrant listed above or (3) cancelling any products in the account. I agree that neither Registrar nor any of its affiliates shall be liable to me or any other party in any amount for any actions taken pursuant to this request. I hereby waive and release any and all claims related to this request asserted against Registrar or any of its affiliates. Additionally, I agree to defend, indemnify, and hold harmless Registrar and its affiliates for any loss, liability, damages or expense, including reasonable attorney's fees, resulting from any third party claim, action or demand related to this request, this authorization, or any actions taken by Registrar in connection therewith.

(emphasis mine)

If they listed you as the registrar in the whois data then they screwed up and you had perfectly reasonable grounds for claiming the domain, in which case you did good (this is also why whois anonymisers are dangerous). But every domain I've ever registered has my companies name on it, not who I intend to use it for. Mainly because I don't want anyone calling them about the domain name if a problem is going on.

 

[cmonova]

Used it twice due to "web designers" who did not want to turn over the domain name when there services were no longer needed.

GoDaddy both times and never an issue. GoDaddy is the one that allows this to happen. Now not knowing Goaddy's business but i'm pretty sure being sued would be on their list of things not to let happen. And apparently to them it's not an issue.

 

[Ccomp5950]

Now not knowing Goaddy's business but i'm pretty sure being sued would be on their list of things not to let happen. And apparently to them it's not an issue.

Well if you sent in the forms and agreed to their terms, it's a non-issue for them, it's yours since you agreed to defend them for them and bankroll any attorneys fees of theirs required. If I had someone on the hook for it (meaning I'm at zero risk) than I wouldn't have an issue with it either.

If you had a company named Technibble incorporated you couldn't claim the domain name in the same manner because your information doesn't match up with technibble.com's records for who the registrant is.

I'd have to show records that matched up with what is listed above, otherwise it's a dispute. If they (your no-longer-needed-web-designers) were dumb enough to list you as the registrant than you did fine.

If not, well be glad the no-longer-needed-web-designers didn't understand they could sue godaddy and have you on the hook for it. Could have gotten damages from it, but then you could have turned around and did a URDP with ICANN and gotten the domain (or your customer would have). However you would have been broke and out of business at that point.

 

[cmonova]

I guess it all depends on how you do it. From the OP's original post I stand by giving the guy his domain's at a small price and being done with it. Not worth the hassle and possible loss of business if not done right.

In my cases i've dealt with what I consider unethical web people and never a concern about going to court or anything else because they know deep down they are wrong and they are not about to venture into the court side.

 

[MrUnknown]

Why do so many people in the tech industry not understand the legal workings of the business world? It seems that many of you seem to think we are here to serve others at our own expense.

Tell me, why could this guy not have registered the domains and bought his own hosting plan? He could have but he didn't know how or have time or want to. So, I was there with my knowledge and expertise to do what he couldn't do. I know reap the benefits of that transaction and my forsight of making that purchase.

We all had the same opportunities and I should be rewarded for being "better" at doing what I do than he is (as it isn't his profession). There is nothing more to it than that. A court of law would rule in my favor as there is no case for the other side.

I think techies are so used to serving people that they get in a mindset that they don't have any "power" but you have to understand that your knowledge & expertise is your power and you have the right to charge what you can get for it.

Why do so many people in the tech industry get a bad name? Doing the crap you are doing.

Congratulations, you registered the domain name of a business before they did and now want to lease it to them. Your actions were not in the best interest of your client. Quite frankly, you screwed them. They probably thought you were trying to help them out, those stupid suckers.

Forget the legal aspect, which I think you would lose (It is pretty obvious you got the domain names for them, after all, why else would you have a need to register the domain of their business at the exact same time they changed their name?), but look at the moral aspect. It isn't right. It's not like you thought of a domain name and registered it, and someone is asking to purchase it from you. You purchased the domain solely to exploit a specific person.

If you take pride in screwing your clients over like this, I hope you aren't in business much longer. Integrity consulting my ass.

 

[angry_geek]

What you're doing is the very thing that gets me more business. I see new clients all the time getting screwed by their previous IT providers. I always tell the client to have their attorney draft a letter demanding the release of the domain name. That usually does the trick. If they start talking like you claiming you own the domain simply because you set up the registration and you were dumb enough not to charge them for a year, we go through the process of gaining ownership. You don't have a leg to stand on. If you fight them on this, I guarantee your business name will become mud. He will tell everyone he knows what you're doing. Maybe the reason he's asking for this is because he's realizing you've been screwing him on a regular basis. Maybe I'm wrong. However, from your argument here, you don't seem like the most up and up operator. No one is saying we work for free. Being honest has nothing to do with the money we make, although honesty has made a pretty good living for me and has given me an excellent reputation in the business community. You asked for advice after explaining what you're doing. Advice was given and you continue to argue trying to defend yourself. What should we think of you after reading this thread?

 

[Paul Rodgers]

You can do whatever you want. You may or may not get sued for the domain name, you may or may not win the lawsuit, you will end up with a poor reputation if you try this.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

 

[tankman1989]

Why do so many people in the tech industry get a bad name? Doing the crap you are doing.

Congratulations, you registered the domain name of a business before they did and now want to lease it to them. Your actions were not in the best interest of your client. Quite frankly, you screwed them. They probably thought you were trying to help them out, those stupid suckers.

Forget the legal aspect, which I think you would lose (It is pretty obvious you got the domain names for them, after all, why else would you have a need to register the domain of their business at the exact same time they changed their name?), but look at the moral aspect. It isn't right. It's not like you thought of a domain name and registered it, and someone is asking to purchase it from you. You purchased the domain solely to exploit a specific person.

If you take pride in screwing your clients over like this, I hope you aren't in business much longer. Integrity consulting my ass.

I hope you make as many assumptions with your customers as you do with online posts, you'll be out of biz as well.

So what was I supposed to do let the domain names get registered by someone else after he does a search on 4 different providers? Have you ever noticed that when you search for a good name on a domain reseller and if you don't buy it it is often gone within 24 hours? This has happened to me MANY times.

As far as me registering the domains not only did I provide him with free domain usage on 5 domains for 3 years and free hosting for all 5 domains for those three years I paid for it all out of pocket as he was getting his business off the ground. I have seen people charge $1,000 for doing what I have done, registering a domain and providing a year of hosting.

Why couldn't he have registered the domains when he knew what he wanted. I registered them over a month after he told me he was switching business names. I had registered his previous domains and had I waited another week who knows, maybe those domains would be gone. I look at it as being pro active and looking out for my clients best interests. If you don't see it as that then I don't really care what you think. You don't understand all the help I've given this person gratis as well as providing services for 3 years for which he paid nothing, on top of that 3-5 different tech support incidences which were 4-5 hours each, 3 cases of data recovery, 1 file at a time for thousands of files (40+ hours here), all free because he was a senior in college and had no money and I was helping him out. I could go on and on about what I have provided as far as tech support and the hours driving to his place and college. I've never charged him a penny more than what I paid for the domains and some of you are telling me I'm "unprofessional" and cheating my clients. That is total BS and anyone who has dealt with me would agree.

 

[MrUnknown]

I hope you make as many assumptions with your customers as you do with online posts, you'll be out of biz as well.

I haven't made any assumptions and base any response on what you have said in the thread.

So what was I supposed to do let the domain names get registered by someone else after he does a search on 4 different providers? Have you ever noticed that when you search for a good name on a domain reseller and if you don't buy it it is often gone within 24 hours? This has happened to me MANY times.

Do you know why this happens? A lot of them either sell the search terms or register them themselves simply to sell them back to you. It is wrong for them to do it as it is for YOU to do it.

As far as me registering the domains not only did I provide him with free domain usage on 5 domains for 3 years and free hosting for all 5 domains for those three years I paid for it all out of pocket as he was getting his business off the ground. I have seen people charge $1,000 for doing what I have done, registering a domain and providing a year of hosting.

Maybe you should have, I don't know, charged him for registering the domains and for the hosting of his websites like most businesses do. I think $1,000 is a ripoff, but still, the client knew what they were getting before they agreed to it.

You should NOT masquerade around like you are helping your client just to screw them over later on by going "Well, I own everything relating to your web presence, you must pay me $X to get it back"

Why couldn't he have registered the domains when he knew what he wanted. I registered them over a month after he told me he was switching business names. I had registered his previous domains and had I waited another week who knows, maybe those domains would be gone. I look at it as being pro active and looking out for my clients best interests.

You have just admitted that you purchased the domains for your client's business and not for yourself. I highly doubt you would win anything if brought to court.

If you don't see it as that then I don't really care what you think. You don't understand all the help I've given this person gratis as well as providing services for 3 years for which he paid nothing, on top of that 3-5 different tech support incidences which were 4-5 hours each, 3 cases of data recovery, 1 file at a time for thousands of files (40+ hours here), all free because he was a senior in college and had no money and I was helping him out. I could go on and on about what I have provided as far as tech support and the hours driving to his place and college.

Maybe you should charge him for the services you have actually provided if you are so worried about getting money from him.

I've never charged him a penny more than what I paid for the domains and some of you are telling me I'm "unprofessional" and cheating my clients. That is total BS and anyone who has dealt with me would agree.

You apparently never charged him anything for the domain names (based on what you said just a bit ago in your post "free domain usage on 5 domains for 3 years and free hosting for all 5 domains for those three years"). Quite frankly you should have been charging him for hosting and domain renewal fees all along.

Going on this particular post, it sounds like you screwed yourself by providing free services. That doesn't mean you can now invoice them for it.

If you are simply trying to get money out of the free services you have been providing him for the last 3 years, you screwed up. You should have been invoicing him all along. You can't provide free services and then, when the client is trying to move away from you, throw it in their face and demand money from them. It is their domain names and website and you should give it to them at your agreed upon price, which was nothing.

Maybe you are stuck in that mentality you were referring to about doing things for free. I always tell my clients they will be invoiced for work I do and I tell them a price before I do it. If I was going to pro-actively get a domain for them I would call them up, tell them I can get them for $X each, get them to agree, and buy the domain names for them. If they ever wanted them transfered out, then they would have them. I certainly wouldn't buy them and then tell my client 3 years later that they now owe me a magical sum for all the work I never told them I was charging them for. If they decline and 2 days later the domain is taken, it is their problem and not mine. I consulted them on that they need to purchase them before they are gone and they declined my advice.

I will summerize how I am understanding your original post:
I baught these domains for a client and he now wants to control them himself, how much money can I get out of him by "leasing" it to him instead of actually giving him his domain?

If you think this is right to do, I will keep an eye on if your domain expires so I can lease it back to you. Afterall, if you can't renew it then you definately need my services I can provide your business.