Professional Licenses

[Markverhyden]

Highlights from my GL policy (Travelers through techinsurance.com)

Liability Coverage: Bodily Injury and Property Damage

Meets contract requirement for Commercial General Liability insurance.
Damage to client property - you knock a client's laptop off a desk during a meeting, or your employee damages a client's ceiling while running cable
Injury at your office - a visitor falls and is hurt on your premises.

Property Coverage: Your Property and Your Client's Property in Your Possession

Accidental damage to your client's hardware and theft that occurs while you're transporting client hardware between work sites (Property Contents limit).
Damage from a fire or severe storm forces you to temporarily close down your office and lose profits, and you have to move into temporary office space for a while.
Data restoration costs after physical damage you or an employee may cause to a client's computer.(Included in Business Property Limit, $50,000 Max Limit)
Reimbursement for lost profits : Storm or fire damage disrupts your business operations; your Internet connection or phones go out forcing you to suspend normal operations (business interruption coverage).
Theft or damage to your computers and other business property at your location.
You damage a client's computer hardware during installation.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

The complaints sound like civil complaints to me and the article even specifies that civil penalties are being sought. Please post where it says it's there are criminal charges

I'm sorry I thought it was clear. Here it is:


According to complaints received by the Attorney General's Office, many consumers said the company did not provide services or repairs after they paid deposits

This is the biggest single consumer protection fraud that consumer protection agencies have to pursue. It is usually fly by night, Construction and contractors that do this. This is Fraud.....

Definition:
In criminal law, a fraud is an intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual; the related adjective is fraudulent. The specific legal definition varies by legal jurisdiction. Fraud is a crime, and also a civil law violation. Defrauding people or entities of money or valuables is a common purpose of fraud.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Do you have links of cases where shops were sued but did not have to pay?

This is exactly my point, there are not cases anywhere. People do not need insurance to run a computer break fix, or IT consultancy from there homes or vans. And if they do rent a retail store they do not need insurance really however they open themselves up to the "slip and fall" scam. I had a guy claim to fall outside my store once and I told him go to the doctor but I do not have insurance so he would have to sue my landlord. I never heard from him again. I suspect if I had deep pockets like an insurance company behind me I would have had this guy suing me? I don't know.

For the practice of our business we do not need insurance. If you lose your clients data, you do not need insurance as the courts upheld that it is his ultimate irresponsibility to protect it not yours. If you down someones network you do not need insurance even if it cost him $10k per minute. The reason is simple as small one to four man shops we are basically contractors and a contractor in business is a statutory type employee. WE are no more responsible than their employees. They can fire you and not pay your fee that is it. This insurance scare is nothing more than a shake down and some of you legitimize it by your fears. Yes ask your insurance agent he is going to say absolutely you need insurance....

Beyond this line of reasoning is the fact that anyone anywhere can sue you for anything. It doesn't mean they will win but you will have to pay for it either in time, litigation, or damages (or all of the above). Insurance can mitigate all of this. Furthermore, there are multiple reasons for having insurance:

Yes anyone can sue you however anyone cannot win. anyone cannot sue you for anything as A lawyer will lose his license if he takes a case and proceeds with it knowing their is no basis of law and then you can sue him for mal-pracise. I have tried to sue people before and it is no where near as easy as you think. Basically you are assuming the product liability cases you hear about (coffee spilt on ladys lap at macdonalds) is the same standard as computer repair service. It is not.

Call your attorney and ask him over the phone if you wanted to sue your competitor for unfair trade practices and see what he says? Or sue your landlord for not giving you a proper office/store space? Even if you have a legitimate cause it is very difficult to get a suit going with a lawyer. For example ask him what if you want to sue some vendor for selling you a used part and not telling you it was used. See what he says.

I have seen both sides of it and I can tell you that anyone suing anyone else is an uphill battle despite what fox news trys to imply.

-What happens if a competitor sues you for something they think you did?

His attorney would ask him to give him at least a $20k retainer and tell him there is little chance of winning and next to no chance of getting his $20k back. End of law suit before it begins.

working with SBA clients I have seen many instances where one party purposely or not hurts another party and their is a legal basis for a suit but economically unless the damages can be in the the $100ks no attorney will give it a consideration let alone represent you.

-What happens if an employee sues you for something?

Employees nearly always sue for miscalculation of wages or violations of the fair labor act so they go to the state labor board who calls you and gives you a case over the phone. They then tell you their decision and penalties if they find you in violation. Or more likely a ex employee fights for unemployment after being fired for cause and you have to show cause. I do this all the time... Sometimes I win sometimes I lose but either way I never see the result as my unemployment tax seems to stay fixed.

I guess If I grabbed some female employees ass and sexually harassed her I could get sued but I would bet you $1000 to 1 that would not be covered by liability insurance.

-What happens if your landlord sues you for something?

I have had disagreements with landlords usually over their interpretation of the lease and I have gone to court and told the judge my interpretation. Usually I win, even when I lose the amounts are less than 1 or 2 hrs of hiring a lawyer so it would not cover the deduction on insurance. I had a landlord who thought I was supposed to paint his space before giving it back....turns out there is something called normal use and wear and paint is a landlords cost.

-What happens if some other unforeseeable event puts you out of business?

You got me there, if there was an insurance that would pay me for that stupid idiot of an ex president GW Bush, being elected and ruining this country economically, or the next guy coming in not being able to bring it back in 6 years, then I would wish to have had that insurance.....as it is I just have to rebuild like everyone else.

Insurance has value in a lot of circumstances if you get the right coverage.

OK I guess we agree here. I do use insurance where I measure that it is necissary.

1. Home owners insurance - since I live in tornado alley and I cannot afford to just go write a check for another house tomorrow and the rates are reasonable.

2. Auto liability insurance on my cars/vans (mostly because law requires it).

3. Auto comprehensive sometimes. (full coverage when the car value is high enough that I cannot afford to buy a replacement for cash or if I had to borrow money the bank requires it). I used to buy on loan, soon as the loan was paid off then let go the comprehensive portion and just keep liability.

4. I did use the military term life insurance offered when I got out of the Army for about 10 years of life after my kids were born until I was able to establish enough net worth that I thought that they would be ok if I passed untimely. I think it was $2 per month, $24 per year for $100k back then was all I needed. I do not see life insurance as a reward for dying only a replacement for a few years while everyone gets used to the new situation. I do not want to set up my wife with a house/income for life as that is not what she had when I was alive. Minimize life insurance as you will not likely use it, it is not an investment, and it needs to take care of loved ones through tough times. In my view 5 years is enough. My children were all college oriented but they were aimed at a State University unless they were brillant and could win scholarships. So no use pretending that they need Harvard tuition. I worked my way through college on a waiters pay so that is good enough for them. I was mostly concerned to pay off the house and cars so with wifey working they could make it with a middle class life sooner or later kids live at home go to local State University while working. wifey may get remarried......

5. And When I had a store(s) (and the landlord required it) and some really dumb employees I had that property/business GBL insurance.

BTW- this is why I know that those policies do not cover everything that they imply they do. While I had that GBL insurance from American Family (I had 5 vans/cars insured; business policy; home owners policy; second home policy all on one agent) a tornado came through and did water damage to the store, took the a/c unit from the roof, closed me down for 10 days to clean up and 30 days to get humidity levels low enough that we could work. I turned in a claim....not covered, not covered, not covered....

So this is why I read those fine print very carefully now.

6. I never bought insurance to use as a credibility gaining exercise as in business to business "we are covered by insurance:" However as terms for a contract with a new client ($10k per month contract with a hospital provider [Cardinal Health] who required it). So I got the insurance for this job. Other than that, I really do not see the big need for it today.

Lsi, I do not mean to be arbitrary against insurance but I do wish to balance all the honeymoon ideas that seem to float around on this forum about the purpose, cost, use and usefulness of liability insurance.

If you are established and and extra $800 is no sweat off your back great. But if you are just starting out with only $20k in the bank and have yet to build enough clients to sustain you.....I think it is a sin to waste it on Insurance like this....

Or if you are an older guy about to retire and afraid of loosing your nut...ok that is ok too.

Just think about when and where you want and need insurance....Like I said I have bought it, I do have some on certain things....others I see little value.

I will agree with you one more thing that it is very person specific. If it causes you not to sleep at night, buy it....

 

[lsi]

We're definitely getting diminishing returns on this thread... I think the bottom line is you can share all the anecdotal evidence and reasoning you want but if you're going to claim that insurance is that over-hyped then you need to also cite sources when you demand them. It's ridiculous to say you can't prove a negative when that is exactly what you are asking of me and saying it should be so easy to find on the Internet. My advice to all is to do your homework but do not believe anyone that tells you insurance is unnecessary. I've seen businesses go out of business for being under-insured and for having the wrong insurance. I'm not saying that everyone needs it but it's foolish to arbitrarily be telling folks that they probably don't need it unless you are intricately familiar with their skills, liabilities, and needs. Please all, take everything said (even what I say) with a grain of salt and consult professionals on these things.

 

[Martyn]

Nothing will persuade me not to have it. It's better to have it and not need it than the reverse.

 

[ElementalWindX]

Nothing will persuade me not to have it. It's better to have it and not need it than the reverse.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I ran my business for something like 8 years without it when I was mobile, but every day I've ever had a store open, I always had business insurance.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I've seen businesses go out of business for being under-insured and for having the wrong insurance.

Who!

I think I am calling BS on you.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I've seen businesses go out of business for being under-insured and for having the wrong insurance.

Who!

I think I am calling BS on you, again.

Put up or shut up.

First you state that everyone uninsured is at great risk. where is the risk? Find a few dozen law suits of businesses closed for mal practice > you give not one.

You can't.

Then yous say the law can come after you and insurance protect you, that is a clue to anyone with any business experience to see you really are clueless on the topic.

Now you say you cannot prove a negative when we have asked you to prove a positive.

You cannot prove it because it hasn't happened in the way you said.

I am asking you to prove a positive and you apparently do not understand the difference in proving a positive and proving a negative. OK so science wasn't your thing in school along side business law apparently.

I think anyone reading our exchanges can see the clear difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and someone who doesn't so keep up your arguments and make my case for me.

 

[Kitten Kong]

I think that this is a IT forum, not a insurance discussion forum, and the legalities of if you should or should not have insurance (of any type).

I know from previous experience, when I was burgled a couple of years ago, that my insurance company refused to pay out, claiming I was under insured. I immediately changed insurance companies after the 2nd break in.

My own thoughts are, that working from home, if a client should slip or fall on the path coming down to my workshop, or heaven forbid have an accident whilst in my workshop, my own home insurance would not cover any claim. Therefore I have insurance to cover any such eventuality.

Also after the robberies, and having to pay out over £4,500 in replacement laptops for my clients I could not go through that again. I very nearly closed down, that was one of the worst episodes I have ever had to go through.

As with any problem, speak with the experts, and then determine in your own mind, what you should do. After all, would you listen to a IT tech on the legalities of say brain surgery?. Answer no, you would speak with a brain surgeon, or your doctor. We are all IT technicians, we know our trade.

I know Tony has his views on insurance, as I and others have differing opinions. To each their own.

Btw, im not having a pop at you here Tony, just airing my views

 

[lsi]

Who!

I think I am calling BS on you, again.

Put up or shut up.

First you state that everyone uninsured is at great risk. where is the risk? Find a few dozen law suits of businesses closed for mal practice > you give not one.

You can't.

Then yous say the law can come after you and insurance protect you, that is a clue to anyone with any business experience to see you really are clueless on the topic.

Now you say you cannot prove a negative when we have asked you to prove a positive.

You cannot prove it because it hasn't happened in the way you said.

I am asking you to prove a positive and you apparently do not understand the difference in proving a positive and proving a negative. OK so science wasn't your thing in school along side business law apparently.

I think anyone reading our exchanges can see the clear difference between someone who knows what they are talking about and someone who doesn't so keep up your arguments and make my case for me.

What is this?! You're calling BS on ME? I have yet to see a single piece of evidence posted by you to cover your various claims. I posted links to refute your BS and you just like to type and type away with your ramblings and reasonings but....

NO LINKS! NO PROOF! we should all just sit back in awe of your magnificence and take your wonderful word for everything you assert. What a bunch of crap. I'm done with this thread. When you want to adhere to your own standards and go find some evidence for the BS you assert, then maybe I'll consider "proving my point" to you. But why should I bother? I think it's clear where the BS is coming from.

BTW - Put up or shut up is great advice