Network Help

[IronPC]

As far as setting up networks, so far what I have done has been pretty basic. Ten computers or less with no servers, all in a workgroup for very small businesses or homes. However I am about to embark on setting up a new small school network with roughly 25 - 30 computers. Alot of it I think have it figured out but there are some questions on the best way to do certain things and that is where I hope some of you can help me.

First off there will be five classrooms with one hard wired computer in each for the teachers. I know that each of these classrooms will have 1-2 cable drops minimum.

Second, the front office will have five computers, all of which will be wireless, so no need for cable drops there.

Third, the closet for the network where everything will be tied to the outside world will have a Untangle server, and windows 2003 standard server, wireless access point(s), switch(s), and patch panel(s) to tie everything together.

Fourth and final, the computer lab. The lab will have about 15 computers all along the walls of the room (see diagram below for what it will roughly look like). My question for this is should I run a minimum of one drop per workstation or should I just run, say three cable drops, and use three switches in the lab to connect all of the workstations to the cable drops which will then run back to the patch panel and into the rest of the network?

I am looking for the most cost effective solution with the least amount of headache. Also if I, in my descriptions above, have overlooked something or was not very clear, please let me know.

I hope I provided enough information and back story, even if a little much so that it is understood what I am trying to do. Thanks for any help.

Link to Computer Lab Diagram: http://www.gliffy.com/publish/2704314/

 

[RobertH]

You need to know the basics!

For a professional system like this, you need to know the basics!. They are paying for a professional installation, you do not seem to be a professional for networking.

You do not put bottlenecks in networks! That is what using switches instead of seperate drops would create.

Leave these kind of job to someone who knows what they are doing!

 

[pc-quebec]

Leave these kind of job to someone who knows what they are doing!

+1 .............A side you probably have a code in your place to make wiring, especially in a school. Do you have insurance to do so, what if you drill a hole in a wall and cut in half an electric wire and it start a fire few months later.

 

[IronPC]

For a professional system like this, you need to know the basics!. They are paying for a professional installation, you do not seem to be a professional for networking.

You do not put bottlenecks in networks! That is what using switches instead of seperate drops would create.

Leave these kind of job to someone who knows what they are doing!

RobertH, I am not sure of the intention with the way you worded your post and the use of exclamation points, but it came off very arrogant. I came here to ask a question that I was unsure about, which I thought was the point of having forums like this. Please show some respect.

Now back to the topic. I left out the part that I will not actually be the one running the drops, that will be someone else. Obviously running the lab computers through the switches could potentially cause some bottlenecks, however since this building is leased for a few years, by the time that becomes an issue (due to the school being small enough not to use all of the lab computers at once) it may be time to move out. All I am trying to do is do the most cost efficient thing for the school and look at different options.

While I do not know everything, I am not a complete idiot and what I don't know I am not afraid to ask.

+1 .............A side you probably have a code in your place to make wiring, especially in a school. Do you have insurance to do so, what if you drill a hole in a wall and cut in half an electric wire and it start a fire few months later.

As stated above I will not be the one pulling the cables, but thank you for pointing out things I may not have been aware of.

 

[dbdawn]

For the computer lab I would run a drop for each workstation. IMO this is more professional looking than running them to a small switch on the table.

The office you say will be all on wireless? Wired is better especially depending on what they are doing.

 

[IronPC]

For the computer lab I would run a drop for each workstation. IMO this is more professional looking than running them to a small switch on the table.

The office you say will be all on wireless? Wired is better especially depending on what they are doing.

I tend to agree with you about the one drop per pc.

As far as the wireless office, that is what they wanted and what was somewhat setup before I got there by someone else. We will see how that pans out.

Thanks for your input.

 

[kagman]

I think IronPC is on the right path given his situation. Yes in a ideal world each of those computers would get its own line and then wired into the patch panel.. However since he is limited on the drops in each room then he needs to be creative. He can provide the client with several different options and let them pick it... Thats all.....

 

[dbdawn]

I tend to agree with you about the one drop per pc.

As far as the wireless office, that is what they wanted and what was somewhat setup before I got there by someone else. We will see how that pans out.

Thanks for your input.

Okay if they already have wireless setup then go with that. You could always make the individual switch setups look nice, mount them out of site etc.

 

[nickgkok]

I have run cable's in schools before and what i usualy do if i can't drop a cable for every computer is :

I run one cable from the main network closet(19") to the computer classroom. In this room i put a second network closet (19" or 10"). And from here i use a system like this :
Cable system

I do all the networking stuff and my friends conects all the electrics in this system.

 

[pc-quebec]

For a professional system like this, you need to know the basics!.

I can agree more, and the OP informs us that he play only with small workgroup PC, with 30 pc he will need a domain, I don't know about is knowledge, but it demand a little bit more than a workgroup. With a domain the planning stage is very important this is more than just network topology, and for this I say to the OP make your class before play with domain, that's means study it, make your own lab.

What about security, my 8 years old son just broke the server of his school last fall ( of course is not the average student but ...)

You do not put bottlenecks in networks! That is what using switches instead of seperate drops would create.

I will agree with your statement if the classroom was connected to a group of servers connected together by a fibre backbone with a fast disk array; but in the case of this small school they use only 1 server with probably only 1 nic. and a low output from the drives . So it will not make a difference since the drop between the server and the switch, and the server himself will be the bottle neck
But I still think it’s a bad scenario;
1- If you want the workstation to communicate each other you don’t cascade 3 switches, you use only one and connect it to the server with a 1g link
2- You don’t mix student network with the office one.
3- Wireless is not a good idea in an office.
4- You will not be able to use a workgroup, you need a Domain, so a second server acting as DC will be way preferable.

so for me ; I will place the main switch in the lab and use a gig link to the server, and I will use a second server for the office, and then you can make the secretary access the student server but not the students access the office one

And the most important; you make sure the students can physically access the switch.


PS; since the office and the lab pc probable don't need to comunicate together, just place 2 nics in the server 1 for the wireless access point and 1 for the switch ( locate in the lab ) so you will have a drop for each lab pc , but you will still need a domain


.

 

[ATTech]

Edit: Nevermind, not worth the argument.

 

[IronPC]

pc-quebec,

Some background information about what I have done on the project.

Starting about three weeks ago I setup their proposed network virtually on my workstation at home. This included a computer with Untangle, the server (Server 2003 Standard), 15 Lab computer with XP Pro, 5 Teachers computers with XP Pro, and 5 office computers with Windows 7 Proffessional. I configured what I thought they would need such as AD, File Server, DNS, DHCP. This of course included the appropriate users, groups, oranizational units and additional things like roaming profiles and folder redirection (students will be on different computers and some of the office people are teachers) and setting up group policies for computers and users, network shares, etc, etc. So I have some idea of how everything will play out once I actually start working on it.

Now the downsides so far is the server is about 6 yrs old. For the size of the network it will be able to handle everything fine, but for reliability reasons I will be presenting to them some ideas to upgrade their existing server and hopefully purchasing another used one. We shall see. I guess if I can find one cheap enough I will buy it myself and donate it.

As far as the drops go, we may have found a person who will donate their time to install them or at the very least do it for a drasticly reduced price. depending on the cable requirements and the possibility of that being donated by someone else, so that may no longer be an issue.

You mentioned seperating or subnetting the lab and the office, I just am not sure if I really need to, to be honest with the rather small size of it. But I will look into that more to be sure.

Thank you for all of your input it is greatly appreciated.

nickgkok,

Thank you for the information.

 

[NorCal Internet]

The problem is, you're assuming that putting all the PC's in the lab on a single switch, and then running a single connection back to the MDF, creates a bottleneck. That depends entirely on what resources the lab has to access.

The OP hasn't really explained what the use of the network would be, so you're going to get all kinds of thoughts on "The right way" to do it.

If the lab only needs access to rest of the network for internet access, then a single connection between the lab and the MDF would be fine, essentially making the lab's switch an IDF for the lab.

If the PC's in the lab need to access the server, then a single connection would be a bottleneck.

I'm not sure a "Domain" is a requirement...What if it was all Linux? Would a domain make things easier? Again, depends on the access requirements, which aren't provided, at least not in sufficient detail. Hell, a Domain might complicate it more than needed.

Certainly "Home runs" from the lab to the MDF would provide for future expansion and possible changes down the road, and if the funds are available, and the distances allow, then that would probably be the best route.

As for wireless in the office, if it's done right, there's no issues with that. It may be the only option, depending on the building and layout. Again, you're saying it's a bad decision without knowing all the facts, because they weren't presented... Probably because the OP doesn't know the importance of when going wireless is/isn't advisable.

In the end, your belief that the OP isn't qualified to do this particular job may, or may not be accurate...I don't know. But, his questions are valid, and so far, most of the responses not helpful...

There are a lot of ways to accomplish tasks like what the OP looking at doing. Some better than others. Sometimes, there are limitations that need to be considered. Not every network job can be done to "Ideal" standards. Financial, physical and logistical conditions may require less than ideal methods to complete the task. That doesn't make it wrong.

I think the main problem here is, if the OP has done a proper needs assessment, all of the necessary information to help him design the network, if anyone on here actually wanted to do that for him, hasn't been provided...

Simply telling him he's in over his head would be fine, but claiming that what he's contimplating is wrong, and that your method is better, without the proper background on the job, indicates a certain lack of experience on your part too...

 

[Elemdee]

+1 for the previous poster. Well said.

Just a question for the OP...what type of walls will you be working with? Painted-over cement block walls or drywall?

 

[RobertH]

Due to his statements

Due to his statement on only having experience with workgroups and his plan to use three switches in the same room, I made my statements.

If he provides a site survey and requirements analysis, he may get some help.

 

[IronPC]

+1 for the previous poster. Well said.

Just a question for the OP...what type of walls will you be working with? Painted-over cement block walls or drywall?

The walls are all textured and painted over wood paneling.

Update:

Someone has volunteered to come in and do all of the drops. After discussing with them our options and since cost is not really an issue now, we will be putting 20 drops in the lab, 2 in each classroom (total of 5 classrooms), 2 in the library, 1 for the MFD, and 1 in each office (total of 5 offices).

So thank you all for your input and discussion on the subject.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Sounds to me like a private school that needs to do all the work by donation. They are lucky to get what they got.

Also, said they would be moving out soon so its only a temporary solution until they source a permanent building.

I've taken on jobs too big for me and come out the other side beaten up. But that is part of getting experience. Doing free work is the best way to get experience as a one man show.

Good Luck

 

[IronPC]

Well since this thread was bumped I thought I would reply with how everything is going so far.

During the course of talking to many different people in different IT related fields, one of them has gotten their company to donate some servers along with a rack once the 501(3)(c) is finally approved. These will be decent, fully loaded servers (probably poweredge 2950s). I was also able to locate a great place to purchase Server 2008 R2 and CALs for really great prices with regards to 501(3)(c) organisations, so we will not be using Server 2003 as stated previously.

We also found out that we did not have to have plenum network cable and the cable we are now using was donated so that saved the school a ton of money.

I was also able to purchase a nice 48 port gigabit managed switch for next to nothing and I have decided against using a patch panel and just route the cables directly into the switch.

All in all things are coming together.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Good Job,

I notice you are only 160 miles away. If you ever come by Wichita, drop in and see me. I have the Computer Fix It stores.

 

[NorCal Internet]

I would still use a patch panel. The in building wiring (The wall hacks to the patch panel) should be terminated into keystones in the wall plate jacks, and a patch panel on the rack end. Then patch cables from patch panel to anything in the rack. Same on the wall plate end (From the jacks to the workstations).

Anyway, that's how I'd do it...