NAS and Worries

[DanF]

I am in the process of suggesting a NAS to a small business (only 2 employees), in fact I chose the Synology DS213J.

What I'm worried about is that of data recover. It's not an issue to backup the NAS, as I'm planning to have an external drive attached to it. But what happens if the NAS is literally damaged? It's not a matter of simply replacing an HDD in RAID1, and the RAID is restored.

How do you go about that?

 

[lcoughey]

Is the NAS holding the only copy of your client's data? If so, you also need to setup a backup that is frequent enough that if the NAS fails, nothing significant is lost.

Edit: If a single drive fails in a RAID unit, I always recommend verifying that the backup is current with clean data before you replace a drive and choose rebuild. If the rebuild hits a bad sector on another drive, its lights out and you are now in data recovery mode.

 

[Martyn]

I am in the process of suggesting a NAS to a small business (only 2 employees), in fact I chose the Synology DS213J.



What I'm worried about is that of data recover. It's not an issue to backup the NAS, as I'm planning to have an external drive attached to it. But what happens if the NAS is literally damaged? It's not a matter of simply replacing an HDD in RAID1, and the RAID is restored.



How do you go about that?

I'm about to do one on a Synology DS212J. You just need to replace the bad drive and it will repair the raid 1. As regards the external hard drive if you format it NTFS(it doesn't do that in the Synology software) then the backs to the external drive can be read in another Windows computer as long as you don't encrypt the data.

 

[DanF]

Thank you both for the replies.

That is why I'm going to have 2 x external drives for the NAS to be backed up to. I will be making sure that they take one off site with them every day or so.

My worries is not the actual RAID, as I'm aware that if a drive fails, it is able to re build itself. However, what I'm worried about is if the actual physical NAS stops functioning and I have to make sure that they have access to their data ASAP. I believe the backup to the external drives would be some sort of a single file (just like most images) that can be restored again to another Synology NAS. But this requires a new Synology NAS to be brought in (and it's not as easy to find on this island... we don't even have an official Synology representative). So, the external drive cannot be simply plugged in to an OS and files temporarily restored on a PC.

 

[Markverhyden]

If the NAS dies but the drives are good you can actually rebuild the array using something like R-Studio's R-Tools on a regular desktop.

Personally I've never used Synology so I'm not sure how they actually store the files on a local backup. If they are not encrypted I wood think they would be in some kind of compressed format like .tgz.

But why don't you consider building the NAS using a desktop with multiple drive and using FreeNAS? If the machine dies you just toss the disks in another box and you are up and running

 

[Martyn]

Thank you both for the replies.



That is why I'm going to have 2 x external drives for the NAS to be backed up to. I will be making sure that they take one off site with them every day or so.



My worries is not the actual RAID, as I'm aware that if a drive fails, it is able to re build itself. However, what I'm worried about is if the actual physical NAS stops functioning and I have to make sure that they have access to their data ASAP. I believe the backup to the external drives would be some sort of a single file (just like most images) that can be restored again to another Synology NAS. But this requires a new Synology NAS to be brought in (and it's not as easy to find on this island... we don't even have an official Synology representative). So, the external drive cannot be simply plugged in to an OS and files temporarily restored on a PC.

If you format the external drives as NTFS and don't encrypt them they can be read as a folder structure in any Windows computer. I tested this a couple of days ago. Just to add, from memory it is like reading a profile you have to drill right down through it

 

[DanF]

Looks like it's easier than I thought. Am just planning for the worst and have a plan in place. That's the last thing we want

Didn't get the profile path though. Is it the folder structure you're talking about, being it just like a profile on Windows?

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Synologys have plenty of backup options for you in their app store. Some for offsite such as Amazon S3.

Some options to mirror to other Synology units...
Some options of backup software to back up to a share on the network or to a USB drive at programmed intervals. Or RSynch to something across the internet.

Lots of options.

Use good drives in them like WD Reds or WD Blacks or best of all WD RE series. And put them on a good APC UPS unit. Good long life.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Personally I've never used Synology so I'm not sure how they actually store the files on a local backup. If they are not encrypted I wood think they would be in some kind of compressed format like

They have a hybrid RAID...which it defaults to, but you can specify your own classic RAID type.
http://forum.synology.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_Synology_Hybrid_RAID?

I'm not sure what their SHR is based on.....as it has some features that *nix ZFS cannot do.
http://forums.freenas.org/threads/hybrid-raid-and-how-hard-is-it-to-do.3244/

 

[Martyn]

Looks like it's easier than I thought. Am just planning for the worst and have a plan in place. That's the last thing we want



Didn't get the profile path though. Is it the folder structure you're talking about, being it just like a profile on Windows?

If I get a chance I will take some screenshots for you. I've going on holiday Tuesday morning so I might not be able to. You have a couple of folder structures if you have file versioning set. As YOSC says there are also other off site options. I use Amazon S3 at one client, very cheap for storage just costs a bit if you need to restore.

 

[NYJimbo]

I don't know if this applies to you but from my experience, don't make a NAS your only backup.

A primary backup should be a backup dedicated drive on the same machine.
A secondary (which you MUST HAVE) can be a NAS if you either periodically rotate local and NAS file space for the backup OR you make the NAS a copy or offload point for existing backups.
A tertiary can be a archival offload site for existing backups.

All you have to do is experience the first time you want to do a restore and your only source is a NAS and it doesn't work and everything just goes to hell.
Backing up LIVE to a NAS is asking for trouble, I don't care what people tell you.

But that's just my opinion.......

 

[Martyn]

I don't know if this applies to you but from my experience, don't make a NAS your only backup.



A primary backup should be a backup dedicated drive on the same machine.

A secondary (which you MUST HAVE) can be a NAS if you either periodically rotate local and NAS file space for the backup OR you make the NAS a copy or offload point for existing backups.

A tertiary can be a archival offload site for existing backups.



All you have to do is experience the first time you want to do a restore and your only source is a NAS and it doesn't work and everything just goes to hell.

Backing up LIVE to a NAS is asking for trouble, I don't care what people tell you.



But that's just my opinion.......

Agreed. I have a client backup their Synology raid 1 to Amazon S3 and 2 external hard drives with 1 offsite at any time.

 

[smashedbotatos]

Backup on local machine, have the local backup archived to the NAS. Then have the NAS upload to Amazon S3 or similar. That way if the NAS dies, and you can't rebuild it. You can grab the lastest backup from the local machine or from Amazon S3.

Although if the NAS completely dies, local machine happens to fail, the Amazon S3 backup may be a bit older. You can also have them keep a dropbox or another cloud account for extremely important files as a fail safe. Quickbooks database, Documents that are being worked on. So if all 3 fail you still have the cloud archive of important files. If that fails at the same time too. Then the world is probably ending and we won't be needing whatever service they are performing anyway.

 

[DanF]

As already explained, the NAS is NOT going to be used as a backup method. In fact, it is going to hold the actual data (no data on the PCs).

I will be backing up the NAS (running RAID 1) to 2 rotating external drives.

My query is the restore of that backup should the actual NAS be physically damaged. Should the backup be saved into an NTFS format, so much so, that files can be easily accessed from a Windows machine... then it's not an issue at all. But the problem is if the backup is saved in a format / a way that it can only be accessed through a Synology NAS. It takes a lot of time to re-order another Synology NAS (at least over here), and the problem is... clients are not going to wait around a week or so without data.

Hope this is clearer

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

If you're backing it up to external USB drives....and if lightening comes in and zaps this NAS and cooks it into a pile of burnt embers, you'd take the external USB backup drive and plug it into a computer and access the files in a crunch. It's not going to be written in alien lingo....depends what backup software you used, but most will allow it to be easily read from a Windows PC.

If they're worried about downtime and redundancy...the simple answer is to purchase a pair of 'em and do the Synology sync! That way there's a "hot spare". Think of it like doing a distant "raid 1"...with a pair of NAS units.

 

[AndyM]

The DS213J has iSCSI built into it. Why not set up an iSCSI initiator on one of the desktop PC's, and use something like Shadow Protect to back it up? Should the Synology fail, then you can mount the Shadow Protect image immediately, and then share it.

Andy

 

[DanF]

Not up to date with this feature, must do some research

 

[drjones]

I am in the process of suggesting a NAS to a small business (only 2 employees), in fact I chose the Synology DS213J.

What I'm worried about is that of data recover. It's not an issue to backup the NAS, as I'm planning to have an external drive attached to it. But what happens if the NAS is literally damaged? It's not a matter of simply replacing an HDD in RAID1, and the RAID is restored.

How do you go about that?

- Is this going to be their primary data store / network drive?

- Note they can NOT run Quickbooks or most other programs like that off a NAS - those programs all require a Windows Environment.

- I'd say that dual-disk redundancy is pretty much a requirement. It's very unnerving when a disk dies, waiting for the replacement to arrive & array to rebuild, knowing that you're one more disk away from data loss / downtime.

- Most NAS, including Synology, have a function to replicate their contents to another NAS. NAS should almost be required to be sold in pairs. Again, if this is the sole data store for your client, I'd very strongly recommend - basically require - them to purchase a pair of NAS, so that one can back up itself to the other.

 

[DanF]

To answer the previous post:

- The NAS is going to be the primary storage. The 2 users will be accessing files directly from the NAS, as shared folders.

- They do not use a lot of third party applications, other than ACAD.

- NAS will be set with RAID1

- Purchasing another NAS to replicate the primary NAS would be way out of their budget. Instead, I am planning to have 2 external drives taking backup of the actual NAS during the night. Will be asking them to replace the external hard disk before leaving the office with the other external, while taking one of the externals away of the office.

What I'm worried about, and I have quite a few answers and suggestions to analyze from this thread, is how am I going to restore the backup from th external drives into a normal PC should the NAS gets physically damaged and be no longer functional... so much so that I wouldn't have another Synology NAS in hand.

As usual, I'm astonished by your feedback, you always come to the rescue Thank you very much for this!

 

[drjones]

To answer the previous post:

- The NAS is going to be the primary storage. The 2 users will be accessing files directly from the NAS, as shared folders.

- They do not use a lot of third party applications, other than ACAD.

- NAS will be set with RAID1

- Purchasing another NAS to replicate the primary NAS would be way out of their budget. Instead, I am planning to have 2 external drives taking backup of the actual NAS during the night. Will be asking them to replace the external hard disk before leaving the office with the other external, while taking one of the externals away of the office.

What I'm worried about, and I have quite a few answers and suggestions to analyze from this thread, is how am I going to restore the backup from th external drives into a normal PC should the NAS gets physically damaged and be no longer functional... so much so that I wouldn't have another Synology NAS in hand.

As usual, I'm astonished by your feedback, you always come to the rescue Thank you very much for this!

In my experience, asking company employees to become part of the backup system is a recipe for disaster. I've got one client who was insistent upon doing this, and at least once per week I get an alert that the backup failed because they forgot to plug the external drive back into their server, they left the drive at home, the employee is sick / on vacation - pick a reason.

Once per week is an instant 25% guaranteed failure rate for your "off-site" backup each month.

Not good odds at all. Do we even need to start to talk about all the other factors that can affect backup quality?

If you're going with Synology, I believe they have quite a few options for pretty darn cheap built-in, off-site backup such as Amazon S3 - at the very least do that.

If they don't have the budget for a solid backup plan, they have bigger problems than you can help with. A better way to phrase it would be that they cannot afford to NOT have a good backup plan.

As for your question about restoring data from the USB drives in case the NAS blows up,

1) At least with Netgear, I believe in most cases if you pop a disk with data on it, into a new Netgear ReadyNAS, it will automatically format & wipe the drive. I believe both Netgear & Synology offer ways to get around this in order to accommodate situations you describe - need to recover data from disks from another identical NAS, but you'd have to check with the manufacturer.

2) This program seems widely used & highly recommended on the Netgear forums, for exactly the purpose you describe: http://www.diskinternals.com/linux-reader/

I may have to use it myself pretty soon here to recover data from my dead Netgear Duo.

Personally I've had it with Netgear ReadyNAS and just yesterday ordered all the parts to build my own Windows 7-based media & file server.