Microsoft Is Bringing the Start Menu Back

[angry_geek]

I'm not crazy about Windows 8, but mainly because I can't do things as fast and as easily as I can on 7. I have NEVER installed a start replacement for me or a client. They can if they want, but I'm not supporting it.

Here's what I hear from customers:

Them: "I want a new computer, but not with Windows 8."

Me: "Why not Windows 8?"

Them: "It's horrible!"

"What don't you like about it?"

"It's just awful!"

"Have you used it?"

"No, but I heard all about it on [enter friend's name, website, stupid news outlet, 15-year-old nephew who "knows about computers" here]."

I've never had one come back asking for a downgrade (business computers come with 7, so this does not include those), and very few problems or infections. I did see a cheap big box hp laptop come in with outlook problems (office 07 enterprise, yup, sure), but that's another story.

 

[gunslinger]

Here is what I have against Windows 8

1. It was un-needed/un-wanted. Windows 7 was doing just fine, rock solid and fast. We were only up to SP1, win 7 could have been just fine for the next 4-5 years with maybe and SP2 somewhere down the line. Win 8 was a solution to a non-existant problem.

2. It is hard to navigate even for seasoned techs. Not just me, there are several techs on here that freely admit they have problems navigating win8. If we as techs are having such difficulties the general public doesn't stand a chance.

3. Microsoft has forced it on people. Let the market decide! They wont do that because they know people would simply stay with whats working just fine, Win7. If new computers didn't come with it you could count on one hand with fingers left the number of people would would buy Windows 8.


The only techs who don't hate Win 8 are the "well, I'm a tech so I might as well get used to it" people and the "If its new and shiny it HAS to be better no matter what" crowd.

 

[nlinecomputers]

I'm not crazy about Windows 8, but mainly because I can't do things as fast and as easily as I can on 7. I have NEVER installed a start replacement for me or a client. They can if they want, but I'm not supporting it.

Here's what I hear from customers:

Them: "I want a new computer, but not with Windows 8."

Me: "Why not Windows 8?"

Them: "It's horrible!"

"What don't you like about it?"

"It's just awful!"

"Have you used it?"

"No, but I heard all about it on [enter friend's name, website, stupid news outlet, 15-year-old nephew who "knows about computers" here]."

I've never had one come back asking for a downgrade (business computers come with 7, so this does not include those), and very few problems or infections. I did see a cheap big box hp laptop come in with outlook problems (office 07 enterprise, yup, sure), but that's another story.

Yeah but people were the same way about Vista. End users are too ignorant of computers to really understand the issues with them. They depend on us techs to get them there. I can't say that I have had the same experience as you. I have had several requests to "do something" about Windows 8. In some cases I have taken them back to Windows 7. In most cases I have taken them to Startisback. It stops dead the issues.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Of course I am. That's kinda the point.

I think a lot of the hate is genuinely misplaced. I don't expect that I can convince you, nline, but I think a lot of people don't "get" Windows 8 or see the advantages in it. They're there, and the improvements in 8 address everything you've complained about in Windows for the last 20 years

Look, I know people think that I'm defending Windows 8 because I have an app to sell. Fair enough.

But honestly, HONESTLY -- do you think I would have sunk that kind of investment into a clearly a struggling platform if I didn't believe in it, and think that it had enough compelling advantages for it to take? I'm literally putting my money where my mouth is. Maybe that was a bad decision, time will tell. But as someone who initially hated Windows 8 back in the dev preview days, and yearned for his start menu, now I get it.


Because right clicking the task bar or Ctrl-Alt-Del is an intuitive way for people to find the Task Manager? There's a difference between what you're used to and what's intuitive.


You won't hear that argument from me. Pinky swear. I think the Start menu is stupid. Virtually nobody uses it the way they think they use it. I'll save that for the big diatribe. Hoping to get a few more reasons from people why they hate 8/what they dont like about desktop so I can address it all in one comprehensive mess.

Windows 8 for the most part is the only OS option offered. You'd be an idiot if you did not prepare and make use of it. No one is going to begrudge you that. I think techs that say they refuse to support Windows 8 are fools. Like it or not the market is forcing us there. Still doesn't mean I don't think that Windows 8 is a pile of crap. Heck Windows in general has a great many flaws.

Right clicking the task bar is not intuitive except for training. With 19 years of that legacy behind us dropping one unintuitive system, but well known, for another one with no gain in benefits isn't something that should be praised. Even Microsoft has realized this as the start menu WILL return. Probably as Windows 9 just to avoid any baggage that Windows VistaII uh 8 has.

 

[FoolishTech]

Even Microsoft has realized this as the start menu WILL return. Probably as Windows 9 just to avoid any baggage that Windows VistaII uh 8 has.

Vista II? Seriously?? You should refer to it as XP II and that would be far more accurate. Vista was crap due to technical reasons. Just like XP before it, 8 is the best MS OS to date in so many ways (except the "modern" UI changes of course.) I really say it's XP II because people HATED XP when it first came out, especially techs - (EDIT: and the UI was a big part of it, I still know ppl who switch even 7 back to the classic 2000 style.) It wasn't until SP2 really that people started to change their minds about it. Same will happen with 8 I predict (especially as MS actually starts listening to their customers..)

 

[nlinecomputers]

Vista II? Seriously?? You should refer to it as XP II and that would be far more accurate. Vista was crap due to technical reasons. Just like XP before it, 8 is the best MS OS to date in so many ways (except the "modern" UI changes of course.) I really say it's XP II because people HATED XP when it first came out, especially techs - (EDIT: and the UI was a big part of it, I still know ppl who switch even 7 back to the classic 2000 style.) It wasn't until SP2 really that people started to change their minds about it. Same will happen with 8 I predict (especially as MS actually starts listening to their customers..)

I was only referring to the marketing. Vista got a bad rap. One that Windows 8 is now getting as AngryGeek referenced. It got so bad with Vista that they even did those awful Windows Mojave commercials trying to turn the tide of negative image that Vista had. Windows 8 is sliding in that same direction IMO. Which is Why I think the version that puts back the start menu will be called Windows 9.

Frankly put a real start menu on it and Windows 8 runs better then 7 does. But those improvements are not worth the pain that learning to use the new GUI puts you through nor the loss of features.

 

[Instant Housecall - Corey]

I was only referring to the marketing. Vista got a bad rap. One that Windows 8 is now getting as AngryGeek referenced. Windows 8 is sliding in that same direction IMO.

I agree with you here about Windows 8, poor marketing, and the bad rap. But as Nick said, Windows Vista had genuine technical problems. Windows 8 doesn't.

Windows 8 has plenty of its own issues (ask me one day why my app doesn't run on 8 and only 8.1 -- thanks Microsoft), but they're not nearly as bad as Vista.

Which is Why I think the version that puts back the start menu will be called Windows 9.

It'll be 8.1 Update 2. Microsoft made the announcement a few weeks ago. Their upgrade cycles are getting really fast and people are beating the drum for Start pretty hard (rightly or wrongly) so I'd expect it sooner rather than later. My guess is fall.

 

[Rocco]

I shouldn't have to Google how to get into safe mode.

Honestly, I shouldn't have to read a book on how to use it. I should have to read a book to learn how to use it to it's fullest potential, but I shouldn't have to read a book to learn how to use it at a basic level.

It was clearly designed for a touch screen. It still seems ridiculous on a desktop. Even on my new laptop with touch screen, if it is not actually on my lap, it is too inconvenient to lean more over to touch the screen. But you said UI is not a complaint you want to hear.

You cannot change every command that we have learned since Windows 3.1, and throw them out the window for new key commands that do the same thing.

Now that I have used 8.1 so much, I think that is still my biggest complaint. Changing what was old, just to change it.

I love how reliable it works. As I said in another post, I hate how 8.1 rolled out. I think Microsoft has been screwing up so much lately that it is just what we expect. Publicity. Telling customers they will like XXX or else. I think they lose so much face every time they change their minds. I think their marketing plan needs to be improved. More notice on things. They have created their own problems, and really, for most people, there is still no other choice but to buy from them.

 

[gunslinger]

I shouldn't have to Google how to get into safe mode.

Honestly, I shouldn't have to read a book on how to use it. I should have to read a book to learn how to use it to it's fullest potential, but I shouldn't have to read a book to learn how to use it at a basic level.

It was clearly designed for a touch screen. It still seems ridiculous on a desktop. Even on my new laptop with touch screen, if it is not actually on my lap, it is too inconvenient to lean more over to touch the screen. But you said UI is not a complaint you want to hear.

You cannot change every command that we have learned since Windows 3.1, and throw them out the window for new key commands that do the same thing.

Now that I have used 8.1 so much, I think that is still my biggest complaint. Changing what was old, just to change it.

I love how reliable it works. As I said in another post, I hate how 8.1 rolled out. I think Microsoft has been screwing up so much lately that it is just what we expect. Publicity. Telling customers they will like XXX or else. I think they lose so much face every time they change their minds. I think their marketing plan needs to be improved. More notice on things. They have created their own problems, and really, for most people, there is still no other choice but to buy from them.

Agreed on all points. I have been using Windows since Win 95 and I had to google how to shut my computer down. I still have not figured out a sure fire way to quit apps when I want to. I just get lucky sometimes and it happens.


I watched a lady at Walmart the other night looking at the laptops. She was going to each one and trying to do simple little things. I watched her struggle for the better part of 10 mins trying to exit a full screen app. She was so frustrated. Then she picked up the Chrome book. There was the familiar desktop, Web browser, she was sold.


When Microsoft is losing sells to ****** $299 "web browsers" , there is a problem.

 

[ohio_grad_06]

Being realistic, Windows 8 is ok, but not needed in my opinion. This is coming from me having it on my personal system since November of 2012. Sure I can navigate around a little bit, but 99.99% of my time when I'm not gaming, I'm in desktop mode. All Windows 8 really has done for me is make me learn different ways of doing the things I did before.

 

[Krynn72]

Too much f-ing scrolling. I can open the start menu and get to my program faster and with less mousing actions then with that damn tile crap.

How many programs do you have? I mean, it must be an insane amount if you need to scroll even one notch. On my 1080p monitor I have 41 programs on the start menu, in a mix of the medium and large tiles, and still have only used ~60% of the screen space. If I shrank them down to the small tiles, I'd have more than 164 tiles in the same 60%. There should be no reason to scroll at all on the start menu.

 

[FoolishTech]

How many programs do you have? I mean, it must be an insane amount if you need to scroll even one notch. On my 1080p monitor I have 41 programs on the start menu, in a mix of the medium and large tiles, and still have only used ~60% of the screen space. If I shrank them down to the small tiles, I'd have more than 164 tiles in the same 60%. There should be no reason to scroll at all on the start menu.

I can't even defend that, on my 1080 with my essentials installed and little more, (because this is a new build just over a week old) I do indeed have to scroll.. I'm not going to count items, but judging by the bottom scroll bar I have two screens full of apps... Admittedly I haven't done any weeding out of unnecessary items but ... really?

 

[TenYardFight]

I can't even defend that, on my 1080 with my essentials installed and little more, (because this is a new build just over a week old) I do indeed have to scroll.. I'm not going to count items, but judging by the bottom scroll bar I have two screens full of apps... Admittedly I haven't done any weeding out of unnecessary items but ... really?

My opinion of win8 and the start screen changed pretty dramatically when I weeded out unneeded apps and pinned my favorites, then rearranged them.

 

[Instant Housecall - Corey]

TL;DR: Windows 8 doesn't suck as bad as you think it does. It fixes things that you already hate about Windows 7. You don't notice those because you're so used to dealing with Windows 7 shortcomings. Along with those big fixes come big changes and user adjustment. I think it's good in the long-run.

I'm going to ask you guys to keep an open mind here.

I'm not here to sell Windows 8. I don't expect to "convert" anyone. But I do think that techs (in particular Technibblers for whatever reason) have some misplaced Window 8 hate going on. There are genuine advantages, and they're big. They just take some getting used to, but short-term pain for long term gain.

Some of the points brought up, I totally agree. Start with those:

Things that suck about Windows 8:

• Start Screen: not attractive
  • Subjective, but yes. See Windows Phone 8.1 for what the future may hold (transparent tiles).
• Touchpad: awful
  • This drives me nuts on laptops. Touchpads have touch gestures built-in. It doesn't work. I always switch apps by mistake when I touch the left side of the touch pad. I never bothered to find out if this could be turned off. I just switched to a mouse
• Apps.
  • I'm talking about the modern (Metro) side here. There is a dearth of good apps, and the Windows Store makes finding good apps hard.
  • Even some of the good ones have slightly disjointed UIs. A lot of developers just don't get it, and the HIG is a constantly changing mess.
• Bugs.
  • I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people who are reading this haven't seen them, so you have no genuine right to complain . For what is basically a totally new operating system, it's pretty bug free. But the modern side has some really critical bugs that make writing apps that aren't games and RSS readers really difficult. Windows 8.1 improved that, but there's still work to be done.

Things you think suck but really don't

• Lack of a Start menu. This is the most common one. I will get a lot of heat here for saying this, but with all due respect I think you are wrong
  • Spend 1 day, even 1 hour, and watch yourself using the Start menu. Do you use it the way you think you do? Do you navigate that intricate hierarchy to find your programs? Do you really need it?
  • Most people click Start and either
    • Type into the Run box; or
    • Click on a pre-selected app that's docked (or whatever the right term is)
  • Windows 8 works the way you actually use your computer: press the Windows key (or start button), then start typing or click on a tile that you've pinned to Start that's right in your face. Fast. Easy. Intuitive (once you know that's how it works).
  • Beyond that, getting rid of it fixes a very real problem: some developers put things in the least intuitive place imaginable (is it a Tools or Accessories? Is Photoshop in the Photoshop folder or Adobe? Happy hunting.)
  • Even if you disagree with me, Microsoft caved and it's coming back
• Can't close apps.
  • 1) You don't have to. Developers have 2 seconds to stop using resources after apps go into the background. After that, the OS shuts them down. Tired of your hard drive thrashing on Windows 7, or closing apps to free resources because you've got a million on your taskbar? That's why.
  • 2) Tutorial: If you want to close an app, move your mouse to the top of the screen. It'll turn into a "grab" icon.
  • Click and Drag down to the bottom of the screen. Congratulations -- you've closed your first app.
  • Pro-tip! Drag it almost all the way to the bottom and hold it there for 2 seconds. When the tile "flips" drag it back up. That's how you restart hanging apps. Faster than going to task manager, killing the process and re-lauching it, no?
• Win 8 was a solution to a non-existant problem.
  • Absolutely not true. Windows 7 has serious problems and they're being addressed now.
  • Beyond the app backgrounding stuff noted above (to save resources and keep your computer running smoothly), and the Start menu hierarchy stuff noted above (to make you more productive):
    • You're accustomed to Drop down menus. How many times have you hunted for a command only to find it was in the menu you were just looking at?
    • If I handed you a brand new program you've never used, where do you change the "Settings"?
      • File->Setup? Edit->Preferences? or Tools-> Settings? Is hunting for Settings a productive use of your time?
      • In Windows 8, it's in the (much-loathed) Settings charm. Always. Along with a privacy policy that Microsoft forces developers to include.
      • Instead of drop down menus (or some bizarre-o hybrid that some programmer embeds into the title bar of windows to avoid the shortcomings of drop downs), all apps use the App Bar -- all your features are there.
      • Yup, it's hidden. Tutorial: right click.
      • It has a flat hierarchy, no hunting, more productive.
      • Pro-tip! The bottom app bar is where features can be found. The top app bar is where navigation is (not all devs follow this convention, but that's the way it's supposed to be)
    • Ever saved a file in a stupid folder only to find it 5 years later? No possible in Windows 8. Apps force you to put stuff in sensible folders (libraries) where you'll be able to find it again.
• It's designed for touch screen
  • Have you tried a touch mouse? eBay, $15, refurb.
  • I don't know why Microsoft isn't letting people know that hardware is evolving with the operating system.
  • Mouse gestures in Windows 8 take some getting used to. They're "hidden", granted. But how did you know where your phone's notification centre was? How did you find out that Ctrl-Alt-Del was a special (and cryptic, and hidden) key sequence? You learned it. Now it's intuitive. One week of practice, it'll be the same.
• Full screen apps
  • I have mixed feelings on this one. I seldom use more than a few apps at a time, but occasionally I do find it impractical. I'd like it if I could have a 2x2 grid of apps on my screen to make copying and pasting a little easier
  • By the same token, the plan is to turn every tile into a window, so your start screen will change mitigating a lot of this. Still, I'm sticking with my 2x2 grid on the wish-list

I could, of course, go on, but this is more than long enough. I hope this is useful to someone out there.

 

[gunslinger]

TL;DR: Windows 8 doesn't suck as bad as you think it does. It fixes things that you already hate about Windows 7. You don't notice those because you're so used to dealing with Windows 7 shortcomings. Along with those big fixes come big changes and user adjustment. I think it's good in the long-run.

I'm going to ask you guys to keep an open mind here.

I'm not here to sell Windows 8. I don't expect to "convert" anyone. But I do think that techs (in particular Technibblers for whatever reason) have some misplaced Window 8 hate going on. There are genuine advantages, and they're big. They just take some getting used to, but short-term pain for long term gain.

Some of the points brought up, I totally agree. Start with those:

Things that suck about Windows 8:

• Start Screen: not attractive
  • Subjective, but yes. See Windows Phone 8.1 for what the future may hold (transparent tiles).
• Touchpad: awful
  • This drives me nuts on laptops. Touchpads have touch gestures built-in. It doesn't work. I always switch apps by mistake when I touch the left side of the touch pad. I never bothered to find out if this could be turned off. I just switched to a mouse
• Apps.
  • I'm talking about the modern (Metro) side here. There is a dearth of good apps, and the Windows Store makes finding good apps hard.
  • Even some of the good ones have slightly disjointed UIs. A lot of developers just don't get it, and the HIG is a constantly changing mess.
• Bugs.
  • I'm willing to bet that 99% of the people who are reading this haven't seen them, so you have no genuine right to complain . For what is basically a totally new operating system, it's pretty bug free. But the modern side has some really critical bugs that make writing apps that aren't games and RSS readers really difficult. Windows 8.1 improved that, but there's still work to be done.

Things you think suck but really don't

• Lack of a Start menu. This is the most common one. I will get a lot of heat here for saying this, but with all due respect I think you are wrong
  • Spend 1 day, even 1 hour, and watch yourself using the Start menu. Do you use it the way you think you do? Do you navigate that intricate hierarchy to find your programs? Do you really need it?
  • Most people click Start and either
    • Type into the Run box; or
    • Click on a pre-selected app that's docked (or whatever the right term is)
  • Windows 8 works the way you actually use your computer: press the Windows key (or start button), then start typing or click on a tile that you've pinned to Start that's right in your face. Fast. Easy. Intuitive (once you know that's how it works).
  • Beyond that, getting rid of it fixes a very real problem: some developers put things in the least intuitive place imaginable (is it a Tools or Accessories? Is Photoshop in the Photoshop folder or Adobe? Happy hunting.)
  • Even if you disagree with me, Microsoft caved and it's coming back
• Can't close apps.
  • 1) You don't have to. Developers have 2 seconds to stop using resources after apps go into the background. After that, the OS shuts them down. Tired of your hard drive thrashing on Windows 7, or closing apps to free resources because you've got a million on your taskbar? That's why.
  • 2) Tutorial: If you want to close an app, move your mouse to the top of the screen. It'll turn into a "grab" icon.
  • Click and Drag down to the bottom of the screen. Congratulations -- you've closed your first app.
  • Pro-tip! Drag it almost all the way to the bottom and hold it there for 2 seconds. When the tile "flips" drag it back up. That's how you restart hanging apps. Faster than going to task manager, killing the process and re-lauching it, no?
• Win 8 was a solution to a non-existant problem.
  • Absolutely not true. Windows 7 has serious problems and they're being addressed now.
  • Beyond the app backgrounding stuff noted above (to save resources and keep your computer running smoothly), and the Start menu hierarchy stuff noted above (to make you more productive):
    • You're accustomed to Drop down menus. How many times have you hunted for a command only to find it was in the menu you were just looking at?
    • If I handed you a brand new program you've never used, where do you change the "Settings"?
      • File->Setup? Edit->Preferences? or Tools-> Settings? Is hunting for Settings a productive use of your time?
      • In Windows 8, it's in the (much-loathed) Settings charm. Always. Along with a privacy policy that Microsoft forces developers to include.
      • Instead of drop down menus (or some bizarre-o hybrid that some programmer embeds into the title bar of windows to avoid the shortcomings of drop downs), all apps use the App Bar -- all your features are there.
      • Yup, it's hidden. Tutorial: right click.
      • It has a flat hierarchy, no hunting, more productive.
      • Pro-tip! The bottom app bar is where features can be found. The top app bar is where navigation is (not all devs follow this convention, but that's the way it's supposed to be)
    • Ever saved a file in a stupid folder only to find it 5 years later? No possible in Windows 8. Apps force you to put stuff in sensible folders (libraries) where you'll be able to find it again.
• It's designed for touch screen
  • Have you tried a touch mouse? eBay, $15, refurb.
  • I don't know why Microsoft isn't letting people know that hardware is evolving with the operating system.
  • Mouse gestures in Windows 8 take some getting used to. They're "hidden", granted. But how did you know where your phone's notification centre was? How did you find out that Ctrl-Alt-Del was a special (and cryptic, and hidden) key sequence? You learned it. Now it's intuitive. One week of practice, it'll be the same.
• Full screen apps
  • I have mixed feelings on this one. I seldom use more than a few apps at a time, but occasionally I do find it impractical. I'd like it if I could have a 2x2 grid of apps on my screen to make copying and pasting a little easier
  • By the same token, the plan is to turn every tile into a window, so your start screen will change mitigating a lot of this. Still, I'm sticking with my 2x2 grid on the wish-list

I could, of course, go on, but this is more than long enough. I hope this is useful to someone out there.

Things you think suck but really don't

If I think it sucks, IT SUCKS. If the end user thinks it sucks, IT SUCKS. That is the fundamental problem with microsoft's thinking. They assume they know whats best for us instead of listening to what the end users actually want and real issues they are having. This statement completely invalidates anything said after it IMO.

Pro-tip! Drag it almost all the way to the bottom and hold it there for 2 seconds. When the tile "flips" drag it back up. That's how you restart hanging apps. Faster than going to task manager, killing the process and re-lauching it, no?

Pro-tip! put a fu ckin close button in the upper right corner!

Have you tried a touch mouse? eBay, $15, refurb.

Yes, I tried one. Sold it two weeks later. Microsoft is trying to combine two very different ways of interacting with a device and in the process has completely screwed them both up. What works on a tablet does not work on a desktop PC, they are fundamentally different and cannot be effectively combined the way Microsoft is trying to force them to be.

Absolutely not true. Windows 7 has serious problems and they're being addressed now.

Really? Why is it that neither me or any other techs I know ever ran into these "problems"

A completely different question: Why are you defending it so strongly? Basically what you are saying in really long format is that every tech on here and everywhere else as well as every one of the millions of end users who hate Win 8 are wrong because you and Microsoft know whats best for us and we are too stupid to see it.

 

[Instant Housecall - Corey]

If I think it sucks, IT SUCKS. If the end user thinks it sucks, IT SUCKS.

Fair enough. Didn't expect to change your view. Trying to show you the advantages you may have missed. Apparently you knew them all.

I remember that I said the exact same thing you're saying about Windows back in the day when I was used to using DOS. I swore up and down I'd never use a mouse. "Too inefficient", I said. I can do everything in a prompt, I can pipe into a find and redirect like this. Look, mom, no mouse!

I can tell you that I'm not writing this from a Lynx browser.

Pro-tip! put a fu ckin close button in the upper right corner!

It's there now. You fished your wish. On a personal level, I still don't think it's needed except to appease people who are used to it.

Microsoft is trying to combine two very different ways of interacting with a device

Yes, they are. That's the point. You clearly don't like it and that's OK. But bear in mind that they had decades to perfect mouse and keyboard. This whatever-you-want-to-call-it (and I know it won't be flattering) has been around two years. Give it time, and give it an honest shot (or don't).

What works on a tablet does not work on a desktop PC, they are fundamentally different and cannot be effectively combined the way Microsoft is trying to force them to be.

I know you don't care about what I think here, but honestly. I've been using Windows 8 with a mouse and keyboard for a long time now. I have my gripes about it (some of which I outlined already), but trust me: They're not combining them. They're coming up with two different ways of interacting with a PC: one for mouse, one for touch, that are both compatible with each other. If you knew what devs had to do to make that happen, you wouldn't think there was any "combination" happening here. They're separate in almost every possible way.

Really? Why is it that neither me or any other techs I know ever ran into these "problems"

You've never had your hard drive thrash because you were out of memory and had to close some programs? I want your PC.

Never worried about a keystroke logger? Never had a customer with one, something that is impossible to do in Windows Store apps? Come on.

A completely different question: Why are you defending it so strongly?

Well, you can look at this two ways:
1. I have an app to sell, so I'm pimping Windows 8 in the hope that I can convert everyone and sell millions upon millions of apps. Let's look at that rationally: if Microsoft's budget can't do it, do you honestly think I think I can?; or
2. I see the promise in a new platform, and I genuinely believe in it and see serious advantages. I also see that it's struggling, and much of the reason I think it's struggling is because (a) Microsoft did a God-awful job at telling people what's better about it and instead advertised a stupid tablet with a snap-on keyboard; and (b) because people are reticent to change

You're welcome to believe (1) if it makes you feel better.

you and Microsoft know whats best for us and we are too stupid to see it.

Yup, that's how I woo my potential customers in public, and that's why Microsoft is bringing the Start menu back, because they dont' give people things they want even though it goes against everything they wanted Windows 8 to be.

Come on.

 

[gunslinger]

Fair enough. Didn't expect to change your view. Trying to show you the advantages you may have missed. Apparently you knew them all.

I remember that I said the exact same thing you're saying about Windows back in the day when I was used to using DOS. I swore up and down I'd never use a mouse. "Too inefficient", I said. I can do everything in a prompt! I can pipe into a find and redirect like this! Look, mom, no mouse!

If you think I'm typing this forum post from a Lynx browser, think again.

It's there now. You fished your wish. On a personal level, I still don't think it's needed except to appease people who are used to it. But whatever floats your boat.

Yes, they are. That's the point. You clearly don't like it. That's fine. But bear in mind that they had decades to perfect mouse and keyboard. This whatever-you-want-to-call-it (and I know it won't be flattering) has been around two years. Give it time, and give it an honest shot (or don't).

I know you don't care about what I think here, but honestly. I've been using Windows 8 with a mouse and keyboard for a long time now. I have my gripes about it (some of which I outlined already), but trust me: They're not combining them. They're coming up with two different ways of interacting with a PC: one for mouse, one for touch, that are both compatible with each other. If you knew what devs had to do to make that happen, you wouldn't think there was any "combination" happening here. They're separate in almost every possible way.

You've never had your hard drive thrash because you were out of memory and had to close some programs? I want your PC.

Never worried about a keystroke logger? Never had a customer with one, something that is impossible to do in Windows Store apps? Come on.

Well, you can look at this two ways:
1. I have an app to sell, so I'm pimping Windows 8 in the hope that I can convert everyone and sell millions upon millions of apps. Let's look at that rationally: if Microsoft's budget can't do it, do you honestly think I think I can?; or
2. I see the promise in a new platform, and I genuinely believe in it and see serious advantages. I also see that it's struggling, and much of the reason I think it's struggling is because (a) Microsoft did a God-awful job at telling people what's better about it and instead advertised a stupid tablet with a snap-on keyboard; and (b) because people are reticent to change

You're welcome to believe (1) if it makes you feel better.

Yup, that's how I woo my potential customers in public, and that's why Microsoft is bringing the Start menu back, because they dont' give people things they want even though it goes against everything they wanted Windows 8 to be.

Come on.

Comparing the way you did things is DOS to using a UI is not the same. The UI is actually more efficient. I had a professor in college tell us he could do anything in the command line we could do in the UI and faster. I took him up on that and smoked his ass. Now, lets sit two people down in front of Win7 and Win8 boxes and let them have a speed test shall we? Remember the little story about the woman at walmart who took 10 mins trying to close and app and gave up? Who would your money be on?


I don't think you get it. The way Microsoft is trying to combine these two very different ways of interacting with devices does not work now and it wont work in 20 years. Its not a matter of the tech catching up, or people waking up and seeing the error of their ways. It simply wont work. This is why Apple has iOS and OSX because while certain aspects will carry over they realized a long time ago they would have to have two different operating systems.


Give it an honest shot? I have been "trying" to use Windows 8 since months before it was even out. I keep hearing this from Windows 8 fans but really, two years is an honest shot. Come on.

You've never had your hard drive thrash because you were out of memory and had to close some programs? I want your PC.
Never worried about a keystroke logger? Never had a customer with one, something that is impossible to do in Windows Store apps? Come on.

No and no. I have never ran out of memory using Windows 7 not even once in 5 years. My current work machine is and old 2007 machine with 4 gigs of RAM and Win 7 screams on it. If you did have this issue than your computer sucked and was running a gig of RAM or less. As for the keylogger, I have never had one and I have only seen one on a customer machine in 10 years and it was a Windows XP machine.


You obviously love Win 8 for what ever reason, great. But for most of us it sucks. For most customers, it sucks. If you want to believe its the greatest thing ever by all means carry on, but don't try to convince everyone else on the planet they are wrong because you can use it just fine.

 

[Instant Housecall - Corey]

Comparing the way you did things is DOS to using a UI is not the same. The UI is actually more efficient.

I agree, and you're right. But if you spoke to me back in the day, I would have shown you how quickly I could cd\ compared to you opening Windows Explorer. What I'm saying is that I was wrong.

Remember the little story about the woman at walmart who took 10 mins trying to close and app and gave up? Who would your money be on?

I'll take that challenge (caveat: with a mouse, but not a touchpad). Show her how to close an app and I'll bet she can do it faster. I'll take that challenge two steps further:

1) I'll bet you I can close an app that's not in focus on Windows 8 faster than you can Alt-Tab and find the little X.
2) I'll bet that I can restart a hung app with the drag method I mentioned faster than you can open task manager, click processes, find the program, click end process, click start, click all programs, click the folder, and re-run the app.

Care to take me up on that bet?

It simply wont work.

Maybe you're right, I honestly don't know. My chips are down and so are yours. Time will tell.

This is why Apple has iOS and OSX because while certain aspects will carry over they realized a long time ago they would have to have two different operating systems.

So does Microsoft. That's what people complain about with Windows RT -- it's not "full" Windows and it doesn't run "normal" programs. iOS doesn't run OSX programs either, but nobody has the same gripe. Different expectations, different standards.

Give it an honest shot? I have been "trying" to use Windows 8 since months before it was even out. I keep hearing this from Windows 8 fans but really, two years is an honest shot. Come on.

If you've tried it for two years, you're right -- it'll probably never be a good fit for you. For me, it is.

No and no. I have never ran out of memory using Windows 7 not even once in 5 years. My current work machine is and old 2007 machine with 4 gigs of RAM and Win 7 screams on it.

Not much I can say to this except that hasn't been my experience. I have a good computer.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Who the frak cares how fast you can close a metro app? My apps and my clients LOBs applications are traditional desktop apps. Your methods doesn't apply to them. And never will because most of those apps aren't suited to the Metro system.

The metro start menu is distracting and if they plan on putting live tile widgets on them they are going to get even more detractors. Microsoft has tried for the past 15years to put live content on the desktop. Active Desktop, the sidebar. All failures. I don't see this as being any more successful because it ignores the basic needs of desktop users. A place to effectively and efficiently work.

"people complain about with Windows RT -- it's not "full" Windows and it doesn't run "normal" programs. iOS doesn't run OSX programs either, but nobody has the same gripe. Different expectations, different standards."

People don't make that complaint because Apple isn't trying to blur the lines between desktop and tablet or phone. Apple realizes what Microsoft hasn't. That desktop needs are different then a tablet.

 

[gunslinger]

I'll take that challenge (caveat: with a mouse, but not a touchpad). Show her how to close an app and I'll bet she can do it faster. I'll take that challenge two steps further:

1) I'll bet you I can close an app that's not in focus on Windows 8 faster than you can Alt-Tab and find the little X.
2) I'll bet that I can restart a hung app with the drag method I mentioned faster than you can open task manager, click processes, find the program, click end process, click start, click all programs, click the folder, and re-run the app.

Care to take me up on that bet?

I'll take the bet as well as add a few things of my own.

1. Open the control panel (I can in two clicks)
2. Shut down the computer. Lets see who hits that shutdown button first.
3. Create a desktop shortcut to a program.

You must start all things from the "metro" UI

Not much I can say to this except that hasn't been my experience. I have a good computer.

It is a problem with your computer. I have never had this happen to me or any customer I've ever had.