I need help convincing a customer NOT to do this ... help!

[thecomputerguy]

I have a customer who called me up one day and said something to the effect of, "Hey they pal, we want to get rid of our server and go with a cloud server because I had two servers fail me in the past (homebuilt), come on over and facilitate that real quick."

Which I made a post on: http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42755

TODAY - I went to their office for a consult to try and steer them away from this idea that they are pretty much sold on but don't understand the technical implications of doing this, and I found myself in a position where it was pretty hard for me to explain why exactly this was a bad idea.

Her position:
- Two server meltdowns, we don't want a server anymore.
- We don't want to have to maintain backups in case our server does go down
- It's only $75 per month!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (they're cheap).
- I get calls all the time because stuff breaks and I don't have time nor do I want to do it anymore (she's pretty tech savvy and she can figure stuff out ill give her that).

My Position (Which didn't sway her very well):
- Your servers melted down because they were junk homebuilt servers.
- Your backup failed because no one ever checked to see you had NO backup drive plugged in
- Stuff breaks all the time because your newest workstation is 6 years old and your server (which I put in as a TEMPORARY SOLUTION) is a P4 1GB box that was meant to get them over for a MONTH TOPS.
- Your internet is too slow (1.5Mbps AT BEST down industrial area)
- If your internet ever goes down, everyone goes home for the day.
- You wont get the experience you want... Active directory, folder redirection, user security.
- If I set you up with terminal services you'd all be logging into the server using something like LogMeIn (shes familiar with LMI so I used that as an example) and it would run terrible on a 1Mbps connection.
- You would never be able to get by on a minimal $75 a month virtual server running 7 remote desktop connections on it
- These cloud servers aren't meant to replace your IN HOUSE file server
- You run QB and an Access database that isn't meant to be used like this, QB needs the data server, and who knows how your access data will run in this environment (She then said well we can make our access program web based! the company we use offers web based!) I said do you know any details at all about this? how to migrate your data etc? She said no.

She said her website guy told her she should be cloud based because they are too small to have an in house server. I counter argued with, "Well I think you guys aren't big enough to go full fledged cloud, the exact opposite of what your web guy said. He likes cloud servers because it WORKS for website's ... not file servers!"

Her argument:

1.) We don't want a server here because all our servers fail
2.) We just want somewhere to put files!!!!
3.) It's only $75!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If we spend 6k on a new server + new workstations were up to around $12k after all said and done. That's a lot of $75's!!!!!!!!!!


Help me please. Am I wrong here? Is there something that will work for these people?

 

[Rocco]

Is this tech person the owner of the business? Either way, I would put what you advised in writing, send it to them, and see if they still wish to proceed. If they do, then you have 2 choices. You can help them set this up as efficiently as you can, or you can walk away.

But first, put it in writing, send it to the owner if that is a different person as this "tech savvy" person.

 

[CLC]

If that's what she's set on then you might as well go along for the ride if you need the work, unless you have no doubt that they will not move on to another tech.

So are they thinking of something like this?

http://iweb.com/

 

[thecomputerguy]

If that's what she's set on then you might as well go along for the ride if you need the work, unless you have no doubt that they will not move on to another tech.

So are they thinking of something like this?

http://iweb.com/

Rackspace hosted cloud server

http://www.rackspace.com/cloud/public/servers/pricing/

 

[thecomputerguy]

Also not sure where he got $75 per month.

 

[CLC]

Whoa, well first you need to get them off the idea of hourly pricing, that could be a nightmare especially if they can't get good internet in their location. If you decide to go through maybe try for dedicated solution with a regular monthly fee. Usually managed and unmanaged service which is a pretty big difference in monthly cost. So maybe you can still keep up with your maintenance contract if you have one with them, with a few tweaks of course.

 

[andcorptech]

What I would do is try to find a document on their server, .doc, pdf, doesnt matter, but a reasonable size, say 20MB. Then in front of them, open it locally, showing them how quick it opens. Now explain to them that the same file will need to download first when they open it, and at the speed you say is their max, it would be about 1-2 minutes to open. You could even upload it to an online folder somewhere, then open it in front of them and show them how long it takes.

I went through a similar thing with a customer of mine who is now a "semi-customer", they closed their main office and had asked me what I thought about their main App being hosted in the cloud. This was a great idea as many people nationwide RDP into it, so a cloud service suited that ONE app fine. This is apparently something their software people offered

Then I get the dreaded call a month later that their software company had organised another firm for them to place ALL their operations in the cloud, and moved everything to a cloud based citrix server. Thats when it all turned to crap. The Citrix suppliers didnt bother to check the internet connection which was crappy to say the least and now they are paying for a dedicated connection back to the data centre. They also didnt bother to come out and look at the operations of the business, which sends many high res photos to clients and suppliers, all of which now has to be uploaded to the server before sending off.

I still do onsite physical work there as the "cloud" service providers are just that, white and fluffy and sometimes full of P!ss and wind, and wont travel to fix anything. But they pay my highest premium rate now, I have a special one reserved for the customers who cause me the most headaches.

 

[katz]

My Position (Which didn't sway her very well

1.) We don't want a server here because all our servers fail

I get the impression that she is argumentative and pushy, not open to suggestions. If I didn't need the job (money) I would personally walk away from it as it sounds to me like it will just be a continuing headache.

I can understand her concern about the money aspect, (12K) but if she doesn't realize that her cloud based solution is a bad one, I don't know how you will convince her otherwise.

The two statements that you made to her should be enough to convince her.

- Your internet is too slow (1.5Mbps AT BEST down industrial area)
- If your internet ever goes down, everyone goes home for the day.

I recently looked at a job on a local Pizza shop (3 locations to service) & I passed on it because of a similar situation; The owner's teenage son had all the answers on how to set it all up, and I could tell it was going to be a nightmare, as he would have an active hand in working the system...

 

[ZenTree]

I don't think she's pushy or argumentative, I think that she's going from her own experience, which is all anyone can go from.

The demo for file access is a good idea. If their download is that bad then their upload (assuming ADSL) is going to be appalling. Show then how slow it will be to upload a document as well. So if they want to save something so someone else can open it we could be talking a fairly long delay.

Don't just write off their idea though. You make two good points :
- Your internet is too slow (1.5Mbps AT BEST down industrial area)
- If your internet ever goes down, everyone goes home for the day.
Don't just give them problems, give them all possible solutions as well. Look into costings for them for a faster broadband connection, if possible and also look into whether you can get enhanced care or any sort of gurantee on the connection. I know that it's possible as we offer it to some of our customers. But you do pay quite a bit to get it. Get them to add that to the monthly costs they were quoting.

Basically, explain in writing that you are advising against it but do offer to help them if they still decide to go with it. If you're helpful and it doesn't work out then 1. you've made a nice bit of money from the setup. 2. They are going to like working with you because you listen to them but gave honest advice. 3. They will probably get a server from you when things go bad and this time they will listen to you.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Problem is, a lot of the points you're trying to shove down her throat simply are not true!

*1.5 megs...depends on how many users there are. RDP can function fine on dial up modem 28.8 speed. 1.5 megs can support several RDP sessions just fine. How many users are there in the office? Or perhaps you'll use other "cloud" technologies...but without knowing what approach will be used, and how many users there are...I wouldn't rule it out because of the 1.5 meg pipe. What is the upload? How many users? And...can it be upgraded? Is cable available?

*If the internet goes down, you're down. Over 10 years ago that was a big concern, as broadband was maturing...outages were common. But to be honest...over the past 5 or 7 years....broadband has gotten very reliable. Especially if it's done right and you have business clients get business broadband packages...not residential. And the wiring from the street to the office is good/new.

*Your claim on not having experience you want...active directory, folder redirection, folder permissions. This is not true! First...we don't know what cloud approach they would use. BUT FYI, you can have active directory, you can have folder synch, and you can have user security. I highly recommend doing some research before making false claims to end users. Makes one get egg on their face once they find out what you've been claiming is not true. You'd lose their trust and probably their business.

*QB and Access and other database stuff...true, it's not meant to run over a thin pipe...but your sort of contradicted this by saying they'd have a log me in like experience. Making me think you're assuming a terminal server environment. Which...now means QB and Access would be run on a local machine! Perfectly acceptable! The access database could probably even be updated to run within a web session.

*A lot of people make the mistake of thinking cloud services means you have something like a VPN connection...or it's only like a mapped drive in the cloud..such as Google Drive or SkyDrive...and we see the example of trying to open up a 20 meg file from across the internet. Well..again, we don't know what options are being looked at for their cloud server(s). If it's an old school terminal server...no, the 20 meg file isn't dragged across the internet...it's only RDP traffic (keystrokes 'n basic video) going across the pipe..the 20 meg file is opened on the server itself. Or maybe it will be a newer version of terminal server...called Published Apps. Or maybe it will be a synched folder approach...like Sharepoint Workspace Client. Or Office Web Apps like in Office 365.

I wouldn't rule it out!
Reality is, cloud computing is the way things are going. At first, I was resistant to it...as I was fond of the 6 or 10 or 12 or 20 thousand dollar server jobs that gave a big fat juicy payoff for setting them up. For a while as we were growing, we enjoyed doing quite a few of those, doing an SBS install for a setup/install fee of 7,500 bucks. Do one of those every other month and you have a pretty good year. But lets face it, those days are over. Clients have become aware of the buzz term called "the cloud". And they're getting educated in it.

So why not position yourself to still make money with this? Partner with a cloud services provider or two...and get educated on their products, and make yourself a reseller. You start to get a regular commission on it. Since it's easier to manage, and basically doesn't have "fires"...you can take on more clients and manage them through this. Eventually the money coming in each month from having many clients on your cloud services starts to build, and your work is easier.

 

[FremontPC]

"At first, I was resistant to it..."

I have to admit, when this all started appearing I thought it would be a trainwreck. I'm sure it was for some early adopters.

Any suggestions as to some providers to investigate, red flags to watch for? As I deal with the smaller businesses, I don't think they would have much use for it, but I'd like to start to get a leg up on the offerings.

 

[PBComputer]

I had a client earlier in the year say they where told the cloud was the place to be. managed to convince them not to. by putting it all in a letter to each director. trying to discover expansion plans. and work out of average file size, this company was 20-30mb. pointed out that their ADSL was not fast enough at 2mb down and 0.5mb up. I also stated that i would not be able to support it if they deiced to go cloud.

 

[TAPtech]

What sort of business is this client in?

 

[altrenda]

What sort of business is this client in?

This should be the first question asked. Cloud based servers are great for some situations and totally insufficient for others.

 

[thecomputerguy]

What sort of business is this client in?

They have a warehouse they store stuff in like RV's, boats, trailers for customers.

Main data is a small QB data file using QB Pro (not QB enterprise).
Word
Excel
Access Database
Email is already exchange

 

[altrenda]

They might be a candidate for Office 365.

Be careful someone doesn't come in and sell them on upgrading their connection speed and getting rid of their unreliable servers with little upfront cost.

That seems to be what they want to hear.

 

[TAPtech]

To be honest, I would likely be one of those people. It seems like they wouldn't have very many email accounts and O365 would be a much better value than Exchange server.

QB pro may mix things up a bit, though. A full out RDP dial-in type set up is quite a change. Also, it sounds like the real problem is the quality of the hardware. I would go with either of two systems here- a Windows 7 Pro based "server" set up as a fileshare and QB host (if the software allows that) and use O365 for emails, or O365 and hosted database files.

Give them a quote for switching all of this stuff over though. The big thing here is that the customer likely thinks they only need to dump you and pay $75 a month and everything will be golden. The problem is they may not have the capability, and probably do not, to get the system switched over.

I have a client with an oldish and getting older SBS server running the gamut of services. We both agree O365 would probably be a good idea at least to get Exchange off of the server's back.

These days, around here, the internet access is as reliable as the power. So it makes reliability a moot point. That leaves an unreliable server looking pretty silly.

 

[drjones]

Well I still stand by my post in your other thread. Some more thoughts:

- Quickbooks: If they have multiple users who need to access the data file simultaneously, the ONLY way to do that is to have.....a server. Whether it's local or a remote terminal. If they think they can just load the data file onto a workstation which will then act as a server, ask them what happens when that machine gets a virus or goes down due to hardware troubles? And who's going to monitor the backups for DAILY success? And how are they going to provide for a RELIABLE off-site backup for this data? No, Mr. Customer, saying you'll carry the hard drive home every day doesn't work....you will forget to do that.

This goes the same for their Access database.


- Data: Going cloud, you lose control. Period. I was shocked to learn of the lax security & outright lies some cloud firms made. Have those issues I read about been resolved by those particular players? Maybe....maybe not....are there other cloud companies doing the exact same thing, just haven't gotten caught yet? I'd bet on it.

Ask them how they will KNOW for a fact that their data is being backed up. I use Gmail & Google Apps for my personal life & business and I'm fairly diligent about manually downloading copies of my contacts, task manager/to-do list, calendar, and just setup software to backup my entire Gmail account to my local network.

How are they positive that will be done for their data? There's simply no way they are going to do it themselves....clients are good at screwing up their own backups.


I'm not by any means saying the cloud is garbage & useless, but neither are traditional servers and neither are a panacea.

I firmly believe that for many of my small business clients, the cloud is not a good fit. Further, most of them are very put off by the total loss of control over your data.

 

[easytechnician]

Problem is, a lot of the points you're trying to shove down her throat simply are not true!

*1.5 megs...depends on how many users there are. RDP can function fine on dial up modem 28.8 speed. 1.5 megs can support several RDP sessions just fine. How many users are there in the office? Or perhaps you'll use other "cloud" technologies...but without knowing what approach will be used, and how many users there are...I wouldn't rule it out because of the 1.5 meg pipe. What is the upload? How many users? And...can it be upgraded? Is cable available?

*If the internet goes down, you're down. Over 10 years ago that was a big concern, as broadband was maturing...outages were common. But to be honest...over the past 5 or 7 years....broadband has gotten very reliable. Especially if it's done right and you have business clients get business broadband packages...not residential. And the wiring from the street to the office is good/new.

*Your claim on not having experience you want...active directory, folder redirection, folder permissions. This is not true! First...we don't know what cloud approach they would use. BUT FYI, you can have active directory, you can have folder synch, and you can have user security. I highly recommend doing some research before making false claims to end users. Makes one get egg on their face once they find out what you've been claiming is not true. You'd lose their trust and probably their business.

*QB and Access and other database stuff...true, it's not meant to run over a thin pipe...but your sort of contradicted this by saying they'd have a log me in like experience. Making me think you're assuming a terminal server environment. Which...now means QB and Access would be run on a local machine! Perfectly acceptable! The access database could probably even be updated to run within a web session.

*A lot of people make the mistake of thinking cloud services means you have something like a VPN connection...or it's only like a mapped drive in the cloud..such as Google Drive or SkyDrive...and we see the example of trying to open up a 20 meg file from across the internet. Well..again, we don't know what options are being looked at for their cloud server(s). If it's an old school terminal server...no, the 20 meg file isn't dragged across the internet...it's only RDP traffic (keystrokes 'n basic video) going across the pipe..the 20 meg file is opened on the server itself. Or maybe it will be a newer version of terminal server...called Published Apps. Or maybe it will be a synched folder approach...like Sharepoint Workspace Client. Or Office Web Apps like in Office 365.

I wouldn't rule it out!
Reality is, cloud computing is the way things are going. At first, I was resistant to it...as I was fond of the 6 or 10 or 12 or 20 thousand dollar server jobs that gave a big fat juicy payoff for setting them up. For a while as we were growing, we enjoyed doing quite a few of those, doing an SBS install for a setup/install fee of 7,500 bucks. Do one of those every other month and you have a pretty good year. But lets face it, those days are over. Clients have become aware of the buzz term called "the cloud". And they're getting educated in it.

So why not position yourself to still make money with this? Partner with a cloud services provider or two...and get educated on their products, and make yourself a reseller. You start to get a regular commission on it. Since it's easier to manage, and basically doesn't have "fires"...you can take on more clients and manage them through this. Eventually the money coming in each month from having many clients on your cloud services starts to build, and your work is easier.

This is very well put. In a nut shell. The cloud is where things are going to be over the next 3 to 7 years. One thing I have learned working with companies, whether they be small mom and pop shops or multimillion dollar companies they come in a few different flavors.

Usually you find those folks who are clueless about computers that are just looking for someone to help them get to the point they need to be and keep it working.

Then there are those that really know what they are doing when it comes to computers but would rather pay someone else as they have better things to be taking care of.

Then you have those that are savvy to a a point, keep you around for the more complicated stuff and occasional advice point. Are very familiar with their company business model, researched things out and know where they want to be regardless of whether they know when,who, or how.

Seems like this person has done some research, doesn't sound like the type that acts on a whim. If they are looking at a $12k cost for the year to keep themselves up to where they need to be and there are alternatives out there that cost far less and requires lower maintenance but involves some risk then just sounds like a sound business choice. Even if they were to get a dedicated 3Mb direct connection through the phone company, around here that is approximately $250 per month then you are still talking about a sixth of the initial and potential costs of having their own onsite servers.

At this point if I were you, rather than taking a stand I would turn to consulting making sure I found the most stable and cost effective methods to help them through the transition.

 

[ShinyTech]

I would do it for them but do it in this way. Write a physical letter to them suggesting against it. Then if they still want to do it then do it for a nice heafty fee. On one side if they like it then you get money. On the other side if they hate it then there going to like you more and pay you to get inhouse servers which means you get more money. So either way you make money and if they dont take your advice chances are you get paid twice. On top of this if they hate it then it gives you credibility and the person who suggested the cloud discredibility.