How would you handle this - web coder points finger at host - host to coder

[tankman1989]

I have a situation where my client hired a web developer to design a new site without talking to me and the client had a Linux hosting contract and had the new site developed in ASP. So, I let him out of his contract and set up a Windows server for him. This all had to be done the day before yesterday, on the day I found out about the new site (meaning he needed it up immediately).

So first the new site wasn't allowing access via FTP for some reason, I think it was because domain migration doesn't happen immediately and the domain names are the host names for the FTP server. This led to about a 30 hour delay in getting the site running.

Once the site was accessible, I uploaded the site and found that it wouldn't run and was pointing to a problem in the code. I spent about 8 hours trying to research both the server side and coding aspect of this coding issue and keep coming back to it being a coding issue. I verified this by installing IIS on my computer and got the same error as that from the host. The host tech support tested the site on another hosting package and a different server and had the same results - all pointing to the coder.

Now the coder isn't taking responsibility for the error and I don't know enough about ASP to work this out.

I don't know how to or if I should bill the client for all the time I spent on these problems because he didn't spend 5 minutes telling me he was updating the website, where I would have told him about the time needed to get a proper host and would have told him that ASP wouldn't work with his contract.

Because the client had a large marketing campaign reaching clients at the time he was planning on launching the new site he was very upset that his website wasn't working when this was really all his fault. So I bent over backward and pulled an all nighter, working about 26+ hours straight while the FTP and coding issues were being sorted out.

Since the developer was obviously not caring too much about figuring out the problem I decided to move back to the old server and site so the client had some web presence while the marketing material reached clients.

Now I need to write up an invoice and would really like to bill for all the time spent, but that would be too much if I was the client. It's always hard to swallow a huge bill when it could have been 100% avoided had he taken the proper steps and inquired his IT pro before making his decision. I don't even charge for calls and consultation like that!

So how would you handle this situation? I appreciate any input you have with this and I just can't get past this one problem client that just seems to keep milking the relationship (we started out as friends).

 

[nightkingdoms]

First and foremost, you need to determine the scope of work you were hired for. You are the computer tech, not the coder or hosting provider. If he emailed you at any point, read that email like you're absolutely stupid and figure out what a person having no clue would believe was your instruction. That's your limit.

Depending on that limit... With the exception of the time it takes for DNS propagation -- as that is a hard limit you can't charge for and in optimum circumstances takes a few hours to 72 hours -- I would charge every hour there was. I just did this by moving 9 different web sites (including my own business' and whole business management system) to an entirely different hosting provider's network (quite literally just the other day). If the client bulks, this would be my exact explanation:

"You had the opportunity at any time - and I regularly tell you - that if you have any quick question, comment or concern to bring it to my attention without hesitation. You decided to ignore that. You are being billed for the time I have taken outside of my normal scope of work to hurriedly fix a situation you caused and solely hastened by creating an artificial and unrealistic time frame for your web site launch.

You failed to inquire with your web host what scripting languages were installed and supported. You failed to take reasonable steps to ensure that you were hiring an adequate developer for the site and hosting platform you had already retained. Your web developer had a reasonable expectation that you would be acquiring a developer commensurate with what your actual requirements were.

It was your responsibility to ensure that a binding agreement was reached which would cover such issues and provide clear procedures to mitigate the issues with your developer. Therefore, you are being billed for the time and expertise needed to compensate for this lack of preparation, reckless handling and negligent business practices. If you believe the developer or hosting provider to be at fault, I would highly suggest you retain an attorney for recovering the expenses of this invoice separately."

But then again, that'd be the letter I would send to them after that headache. lol

 

[TimJacobs]

First and foremost, you need to determine the scope of work you were hired for. You are the computer tech, not the coder or hosting provider. If he emailed you at any point, read that email like you're absolutely stupid and figure out what a person having no clue would believe was your instruction. That's your limit.

But I do think he is the hosting provider.....

 

[seedubya]

But I do think he is the hosting provider.....

Yep, he is.

How much is this client worth to you, yearly? Because given the amount of hassle he is being he'd need to be worth a fair bit. If this was my client at this point I'd be telling him to sort it out with the developer himself. Your job is to provide hosting - you've already exceeded your remit on that count. You've given him hours of your time. Enough is enough. Write up the full bill and give it to him. He'll either pay it (Yay) or he'll lose it and never deal with you again (Yay).

 

[tankman1989]

First and foremost, you need to determine the scope of work you were hired for. You are the computer tech, not the coder or hosting provider. If he emailed you at any point, read that email like you're absolutely stupid and figure out what a person having no clue would believe was your instruction. That's your limit.

Depending on that limit... With the exception of the time it takes for DNS propagation -- as that is a hard limit you can't charge for and in optimum circumstances takes a few hours to 72 hours -- I would charge every hour there was. I just did this by moving 9 different web sites (including my own business' and whole business management system) to an entirely different hosting provider's network (quite literally just the other day). If the client bulks, this would be my exact explanation:

"You had the opportunity at any time - and I regularly tell you - that if you have any quick question, comment or concern to bring it to my attention without hesitation. You decided to ignore that. You are being billed for the time I have taken outside of my normal scope of work to hurriedly fix a situation you caused and solely hastened by creating an artificial and unrealistic time frame for your web site launch.

You failed to inquire with your web host what scripting languages were installed and supported. You failed to take reasonable steps to ensure that you were hiring an adequate developer for the site and hosting platform you had already retained. Your web developer had a reasonable expectation that you would be acquiring a developer commensurate with what your actual requirements were.

It was your responsibility to ensure that a binding agreement was reached which would cover such issues and provide clear procedures to mitigate the issues with your developer. Therefore, you are being billed for the time and expertise needed to compensate for this lack of preparation, reckless handling and negligent business practices. If you believe the developer or hosting provider to be at fault, I would highly suggest you retain an attorney for recovering the expenses of this invoice separately."

But then again, that'd be the letter I would send to them after that headache. lol

Wow, I think you and I think very similarly! I think you have some kind of idea of the stress we techs go through when a client messes up the the business relationship and gets upset when he sees the consequences. This was such a cluster**** when dealing with the developer and the hosting provider pointing the finger at each other and myself in the middle who was responsible for the contracting of the web host. This made me feel responsible for ensuring that the error did not lie with the service I was providing and had to resolve the problem immediately.

I want to sincerely thank you for the response you wrote as it will help me greatly in forming my response to any potential complaints about the bill.

In case anyone is reading this and is ever in a similar position as I or even if you are the actual host or developer I would suggest you do the following: create a simple test file for both a Windows server and a Linux server. I created a thread with test files here: http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42334

 

[nlinecomputers]

I wouldn't use the terms reckless or negligent, even if they are accurate. Those are insults and the client will not hear you. Other then that NK in on the mark. This guy created his own hole and you fixed it. Bill him.

 

[tankman1989]

I wouldn't use the terms reckless or negligent, even if they are accurate. Those are insults and the client will not hear you. Other then that NK in on the mark. This guy created his own hole and you fixed it. Bill him.

Thank you, and NK, for your opinions and for giving me the courage to bill what is appropriate for a business relationship where I went well above and beyond due to the negligence of the client and developer. It is my opinion that the client should seek some form of compensation from the developer be it withholding pay for the sloppy coding job and for him not taking responsibility and lying to me on two occasions that he tested the code on IIS locally and that it worked (while my IIS results were the same as the web host exactly - not working) when in fact he lied about installing IIS and about testing it. He later lied about uploading one of his old, known to be working sites, to the server and telling me that they didn't work on the server. He was supposed to leave them on the site for me to review but he conveniently deleted them immediately after seeing them most likely work. So his 3-4 lies here have largely led to this situation and much of my work as I was trusting him and his results. The client should take recourse against these actions.

 

[nightkingdoms]

I wouldn't use the terms reckless or negligent, even if they are accurate. Those are insults and the client will not hear you. Other then that NK in on the mark. This guy created his own hole and you fixed it. Bill him.

I use those types of words when I want it to be clear and don't want the client anymore. Usually I give them this letter so they have something to whine about, show their friends the "mean" letter. Usually they read it and say, you did what? lol

...due to the negligence of the client and developer... The client should take recourse against these actions.

This exactly. It was an issue with the client taking it upon themselves thinking they know what they're doing and hiring a sub-par developer to do the job. The two instances just beg for something to go horribly, spiraling-down wrong. I will warn you, however, that sending him a large bill (especially if you send the letter as well lol) will probably end your relationship with that client, rarely does it not. Just make sure you expect that from the beginning.

 

[ComputerRepairTech]

As a previous hosting provider I find it best to have "a guy" for various different elements. Not someone you employ regularly but on a per situation basis. Webhostingtalk is a good place to find such people but you should make sure others on the forum have experience working with these people first.

I dont think its right to charge the guy for your extensive research on the situation unless he agreed to pay you to do that. Its not your field. That would be like me charging per hour for programming...I can get it done but its going to take me 5 times longer than a real programmer.

 

[nlinecomputers]

I use those types of words when I want it to be clear and don't want the client anymore. Usually I give them this letter so they have something to whine about, show their friends the "mean" letter. Usually they read it and say, you did what? lol



This exactly. It was an issue with the client taking it upon themselves thinking they know what they're doing and hiring a sub-par developer to do the job. The two instances just beg for something to go horribly, spiraling-down wrong. I will warn you, however, that sending him a large bill (especially if you send the letter as well lol) will probably end your relationship with that client, rarely does it not. Just make sure you expect that from the beginning.

That could bite you in the butt. Sure some clients need to be fired(really don't think this is the case here) but if you do it in such a way that portrays you as an a$$hole that is all the client is going to see and that is all he will tell everyone who will listen.

 

[nightkingdoms]

That could bite you in the butt. Sure some clients need to be fired(really don't think this is the case here) but if you do it in such a way that portrays you as an a$$hole that is all the client is going to see and that is all he will tell everyone who will listen.

I can only speak for me personally, but from what I've read, it seems that the OP eluded to similar, smaller-scale incidents occuring. I only do things like this for real headache clients that have done something really boneheaded.

The word-of-mouth thing is a different monster, depending on where you live. In a small town it will spread, but it all hinges on who's speaking and their reputation. Larger areas it depends on the caliber of the friends that the one who's speaking keeps - people who tolerate them 24/7 opposed to my few dealings.

I've been in both areas, personally, and I have done this only a handful of times in the past 14 years. In a single instance the reader didn't understand what they did until the letter, apologized profusely and is still a client today (about 8 years now).

Most threaten to drop me but during that call I give them the speech that it might be better to go somewhere else. Also most of the time, weirdly enough, I've gotten their friends as clients because they couldn't believe I called them on it because "nobody talks to them like that."

It all depends on how you handle people. I am extremely professional but I'm also a human. I joke with my clients, I have an extremely open door policy, I speak English to my clients (not geek), and I build rapport very quickly. I have a very long wick on my candle, so if you burned it all the way you obviously screwed up.

I'm not saying this is the course the OP should take, just what I would do given the information and eluding ti an on-going problem with this client.

 

[tankman1989]

I can only speak for me personally, but from what I've read, it seems that the OP eluded to similar, smaller-scale incidents occuring. I only do things like this for real headache clients that have done something really boneheaded.

The word-of-mouth thing is a different monster, depending on where you live. In a small town it will spread, but it all hinges on who's speaking and their reputation. Larger areas it depends on the caliber of the friends that the one who's speaking keeps - people who tolerate them 24/7 opposed to my few dealings.

I've been in both areas, personally, and I have done this only a handful of times in the past 14 years. In a single instance the reader didn't understand what they did until the letter, apologized profusely and is still a client today (about 8 years now).

Most threaten to drop me but during that call I give them the speech that it might be better to go somewhere else. Also most of the time, weirdly enough, I've gotten their friends as clients because they couldn't believe I called them on it because "nobody talks to them like that."

It all depends on how you handle people. I am extremely professional but I'm also a human. I joke with my clients, I have an extremely open door policy, I speak English to my clients (not geek), and I build rapport very quickly. I have a very long wick on my candle, so if you burned it all the way you obviously screwed up.

I'm not saying this is the course the OP should take, just what I would do given the information and eluding ti an on-going problem with this client.

I got an email from the developer stating that he talked to 5 of his developer friends and it turns out that he compiled the code in the wrong language! All this time and effort when this nit-wit could have taken some simple steps to verify what he did was correct instead of adamantly declaring none of it was his fault. So I'm now more clear on how I'm going to bill since I spent 5 days being wrongly accused of mismanagement and borderline unprofessional-ism. I sigh a sigh of relief!

 

[nightkingdoms]

I would forward that message to your client. lol

 

[anglian]

I would be the client for every hour, but then give them a discount (maybe 25%) for being a "good customer" and explain to them that the developer messed up, and admitted it, therefore there was no way you could have done it any quicker.