HDD Mechanical Start Failures

Haole Boy

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Aloha everyone. In the last week I've had two machines that have "Mechanical Start Failures" in the 'Statistics' section of gSmartControl output. One had 6 of them, the other 7. Searching the internet I can't find consensus if this means the drive is bad, or if I can ignore it. Would like to know what the experts here have to say. All other SMART indicators are OK.

FWIW, both are Toshiba drives.

Mahalo,

Harry Z
 
I consider all platter based storage that isn't in a SAN or NAS to be defective.

SSD all the things...

LOL! I understand your point of view, however my customers are residential and the expense of parts and labor to install an SSD is difficult for a lot of them.

Harry Z
 
LOL! I understand your point of view, however my customers are residential and the expense of parts and labor to install an SSD is difficult for a lot of them.

Harry Z

It's cheaper than the expense of them blaming you for their hard drive failing after you do any sort of maintenance on it. Even if you successfully clean it up you get what maybe another 5%-10% performance which becomes negligible after using the computer for a week? I'm just straight up with them, and tell them that they'll feel like it was a waste of money.

I tell people I can charge you an hour for a clean up and whatever performance boost you get out of it will probably be un-noticeable after a couple of days, OR, I can install a SSD, mirror it over, and you get your computer back better, faster, and more reliable than when you first bought it, giving you at least a 50% boost in speed. On top of that any other work like updates I need to do to it aren't a complete time sink baby sitting a terrible system.

Most go for that, its easy enough for me to image a Samsung SSD with their software and install it. With 500GB SSD's below a $100 price point I can usually make the sale at about $280 for basically 15 minutes of hands on work. It usually takes longer to communicate with the customer for dropoff/pickup, wipe it down, and collect payment than it does to actually work on it.

Maybe you need to push yourself, maybe you are mentally blocking yourself from making the sale because you don't THINK you can sell it. Give it a shot you might be surprised. If you still can't make those sales then you're either not good at selling, you're in an extremely low income area, or you just need better clients.

It's getting more and more rare these days to even see a spinner, and if I see one it goes straight into an SSD upgrade or a new computer. I am not wasting my time cleaning up a computer with a 4 year old spinner in 1.) Because it takes forever to do ANYTHING on that computer and 2.) Because I don't want the computer back several weeks later after I rip files out of it during the cleanup process pushing it into failure.

I've even shown up at clients offices with SSD's in hand, start mirroring, then goto lunch and come back after they are done then just swap them and charge them a flat rate for the whole thing.

I had a lady call me today, referred from another client. Her 10 year old computer was boot looping after a failed W10 upgrade. After explaining to her that upgrading that system in the first place is a mistake, there is a high likelihood that her hard drive is failing. I told her no matter what she needed a new computer. I walked her through booting up into safe mode, then rebooting and after some time it actually booted up. I charged her for 1/2 hour labor and she called me back asking me to do a hard drive diag on it after it finally booted.

I just straight told her I wasn't going to touch it anymore, and even if I did and the hard drive wasn't throwing errors I'd tell her she needed a new computer. If it was failing, then she needed a new computer. The end result would be the same either way and it would be pointless. She wasn't local by the way, so she probably wont be a returning client, not to mention the pandemic.

Theres more to the above story like a desktop recommendation and a recommendation to find a local tech to transfer that data since at the time it wasn't booting but people are people and she'll probably push that thing until it completely fails and she loses all her data.

I told her to call me when she buys the one I recommended to her, i5, 12gb ram, 500gb nvme and I can login to it and help her set it up remotely but either way she'll need to find someone local to transfer the data.
 
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I'm sure you've already found this, but the only references I could find to this on a search were for Toshiba drives - no other manufacturer. Folks are saying 'ignore' - but I would recommend replace. As others have said, there is now no point in replacing with a new spinner, so SSD is the way to go. Bad news for your customers, and I appreciate the financial problems they may have, but from their POV, this is the least worst option - and by some margin.
 
A quick Google search for "hard drive mechanical Start Failures", seems to show a failing drive.
Replace or lose data. It's only a matter of time before it goes.
Any issues with hard drives, I replace them. Usually SSD, unless they are very large for storage.
Just not worth the chances and mess when it fails.
 
LOL! I understand your point of view, however my customers are residential and the expense of parts and labor to install an SSD is difficult for a lot of them.

Harry Z

Then they can't afford a computer. All repairs are hourly, you want me to fix a platter? That will take longer, so you can either pay me 2 hours of time to fix a platter based platform, or you can pay me 1 hour and the cost of an SSD. The latter is actually cheaper.

Besides every time I have to remote into a residential platter based system to do anything I want to claw my eyes out. My clients know the clock is running, and I don't have time to wait 30min for a system to restart!
 
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Thanks to Windows 10, hard drives just aren't viable for operating system drives anymore. I just redid a personal Windows 7 system of mine with a 1TB HDD and it was just as fast as an SSD at everything but startup (and even startup was only like 25 seconds). Unfortunately Microsoft wants everything Windows 10 nowadays, so you've got to adapt. Unless you have at least a 3rd gen i5, 4GB of RAM, and a SSD, the system is garbage. An exception can be made for modern (8th+ generation) i3's.

Quote an SSD upgrade or hand them back the computer. Just because you think they won't pay doesn't mean they won't. I'm surprised all the time by the type of people that willingly pay my prices. Don't judge by appearances.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. Both machines will be getting an SSD upgrade.

But... I'd like to get back to my original question: Is a Mechanical Start Failure a sign of a drive that is starting to fail? I just want to understand this.

Thank you,

Harry Z
 
I would assume it means the DC motor that spins the platters is getting weak and having a hard time cranking up the platters...

So yeah, that's indicative of failure. The thing is... DC motors being what they are, that condition could exist for 10min, or 10 years... no one knows. The air compressor in a heat pump is annoyingly similar in that regard.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. Both machines will be getting an SSD upgrade.

But... I'd like to get back to my original question: Is a Mechanical Start Failure a sign of a drive that is starting to fail? I just want to understand this.

Thank you,

Harry Z

The fact that there is a spinner in there is sign of failure, you don't need a utility to tell you that.
 
To answer your original question, yes and no. I use HDD Sentinel, and it words things a little differently, to help you understand what may happen.

It mentions under that failure code, that the drive failed to properly spin up. This could be power supply, bad cabling etc. (I did a quick paraphrase)

In my practical application, if it was a laptop and the events were not recent (you can usually see timestamp of when it happened) you can likely ignore the message as if it's been a whole year since that error, then it may be an anomaly or user error where they forced the machine to shut down before the drive had a chance to spin up. Despite being modern drives they still go through a number of "pre flight checklists" and users playing with buttons can interrupt these. I also would check if possible if there is a specialized cable interface (like how apple uses for hdd) as when these fail connections can get flaky.

If it was a desktop I would first check cables and test PSU (often I checked before but I would also test under load).

If it's a usb drive I usually mark it for replacement as if they run backups you want a 100% drive for backups.

We all know drives die, and many times even SSD's die without any warning. SMART is just a form of "stats", it doesn't mean its right or wrong. Ive seen plenty of bad drives that passed all tests and passed SMART, yet they failed. Once replaced they ran as usual with zero issues.

The weirdest one was a desktop drive that was slow, sounded like those old drives that make that plate & fork like sound, and it took forever to load the OS. No issues software wise. Ran a benchmark on the drive and it was running consistently 20-30% below the minimum MFG specs. Called customer, got approval to get new drive, system ran flawless.

You will get a sense of what needs to be fixed/replaced. The worst offenders are when a drive tries to reallocate a sector, fails saying sector is fine. Toshiba are bad for that, as are Hitachi. Replace those, they will die soon. Depending on drive and age, some bad sectors are unavoidable. But I generally set a max limit of 10-20 depending on size of drive and when they were logged. If they were logged a year ago and since then nothing, then I run some tests but if everything looks good then ok. If those sectors went rogue only recently, I would scrutinize everything.

You get an eye for what right and wrong and run very specific tests to isolate issues.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. Both machines will be getting an SSD upgrade.

But... I'd like to get back to my original question: Is a Mechanical Start Failure a sign of a drive that is starting to fail? I just want to understand this.

Thank you,

Harry Z

Given the price of HD's/SSD's and labor and data recovery costs anything that a problem, including something flagged in gsmartcontrol, crystaldisk, etc, warrants a drive replacement. Many of those apps do produce false positives, predicting a failure when it's not, and false negative, everything is fine when it's not.

@Haole Boy being on the Island certainly means things are more expensive than on the mainland. But I'd still expect the marginal cost of an SSD over spindle to be relatively low. I carry around an older laptop and show customer show quickly it boots with an SSD.
 
@Haole Boy being on the Island certainly means things are more expensive than on the mainland. But I'd still expect the marginal cost of an SSD over spindle to be relatively low. I carry around an older laptop and show customer show quickly it boots with an SSD.

The only "technology" stores here are Best Buy and Office Max. Neither one carries much computer stuff, so I buy everything on Amazon using Prime for the free shipping. A couple weeks ago a new Samsung EVO 860 SSD took about 2-3 days to get here. Now it's 3 or more weeks. Hope these failing drives will last that long. :-) I'm keeping the disk images I took of those drives until they get replaced.

Harry Z
 
@Haole Boy
Are you sure that is a SMART attribute? I am looking at the gsmartcontrol attributes list and "mechanical start failures" does not exist.
Anyways, the two main attributes to be most concerned with on HDDs are Reallocated Sector Count, Pending Sector Count.
 
Hope these failing drives will last that long.

Remember false positives. I remember back in the day when SMART stated getting implemented in drive firmware with the result that it'll be part of the POST messages. More times than I care to remember people bringing in computers with a SMART message predicting failure. "How long has this message been coming up" "I don't know. Maybe a couple of years"
 
@Haole Boy
Are you sure that is a SMART attribute? I am looking at the gsmartcontrol attributes list and "mechanical start failures" does not exist.
Anyways, the two main attributes to be most concerned with on HDDs are Reallocated Sector Count, Pending Sector Count.

Aloha @labtech this is not a SMART error. It is in the 'Device Statistics' and is flagged in red in the gSmartControl gui. Here's an excerpt from the text output:

Device Statistics (GP Log 0x04)
Page Offset Size Value Flags Description
0x01 ===== = = === == General Statistics (rev 1) ==
0x01 0x008 4 2244 --- Lifetime Power-On Resets
0x01 0x010 4 5045 --- Power-on Hours
0x01 0x018 6 22195478452 --- Logical Sectors Written
0x01 0x020 6 463460973 --- Number of Write Commands
0x01 0x028 6 24923182518 --- Logical Sectors Read
0x01 0x030 6 316708901 --- Number of Read Commands
0x03 ===== = = === == Rotating Media Statistics (rev 1) ==
0x03 0x008 4 5027 --- Spindle Motor Power-on Hours
0x03 0x010 4 5027 --- Head Flying Hours
0x03 0x018 4 2309 --- Head Load Events
0x03 0x020 4 0 --- Number of Reallocated Logical Sectors
0x03 0x028 4 2 --- Read Recovery Attempts
0x03 0x030 4 6 --- Number of Mechanical Start Failures


I've highlighted the line in red above, and I'm attaching the full output just in case you might want to see it

Harry Z
 

Attachments

I installed gsmartcontrol on my new Dell machine running Lubuntu.

Just checked the SMART on the new 2TB Toshiba HDD it has in there. All is well.
Then checked the Statistics tab - The "Number of Mechanical Failures" entry is highlighted in pink, therefore, I presume, it indicates "failure concern". Hovering over the entry, the pop-up message says: "Notice: The drive is reporting mechanical errors".
Obviously, this is false. I don't think it is reporting correctly.

Then, I connected a variety of model drives via USB-3 and USB-C ports, show the SMART attributes correctly, however none of them show the "Statistics" data. This makes me conclude that gsmartcontrol displays the statistics data on a drive only if it is a bootable drive installed in the machine.

Either way, I would not worry about that error.
 
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