Fed up with Vista

[gunslinger]

" Come on this is getting to be school yard type of stuff."

Only because you ignore that most people are having issues with Vista. As gregh said 5100 feedbacks and only one positive, same thing here with less people but 0% positive feed back about Vista. When you ignore facts you mark yourself as uninformed, close minded, or just plain stupid. As much as I would like to say Vista is great I can't even say its exceptable. At lest not yet.

" I've never lost 6G of data or know of anyone who has due to a software problem "
then you have not been working on computers long enough.

 

[gunslinger]

Having the latest CPU, m/b, RAM etc means nothing if it isn't Vista compatible and / or the drivers are crap.

That was not the argument. You said :" It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded."

Thats why I offered my system specs.

 

[dipper]

" Come on this is getting to be school yard type of stuff."

Only because you ignore that most people are having issues with Vista. .

I have stated that Vista is not perfect. I also provided links to where others are recommending Vista and have positive feedback

" I've never lost 6G of data or know of anyone who has due to a software problem "
then you have not been working on computers long enough.

I've been running a computer business over 14 years. Hardware issues, user issues, viruses, spyware etc have caused it but never seen an operating system cause 6G of data loss.

I'm still waiting to hear how you lost 6G of data? I'm not doubting it but I find it hard to beleive 6G of data was lost due to Vista.

 

[dipper]

That was not the argument. You said :" It is the people that have older machines, put Vista on and then complain that this or that doesn't work when they should have checked things out properly before they upgraded."

Thats why I offered my system specs.

Nice selective quoting as I also said "without proper testing beforehand.".

 

[gunslinger]

Nice selective quoting as I also said "without proper testing beforehand.".

Everyone I know used the Vista update advisor before upgrading, not real sure what you mean by "proper testing"

 

[gunslinger]

Every point you have tried to make has been shot down. Vista is not stable, thats not my opinion, its a fact. There are lots of smaller problems that plague Vista: slow data transfer, missing shortcuts, random freezing, Bsod, ect. the list is too long. If people have been using XP for years and with few problems, and they have for the most part sense SP2 , then they switch to Vista and have all kinds of problems as they have been, how can you blame the end user? most of the people I know that are having problems with Vista, myself included did'nt change a thing. But now most of the software I want to use wont work, including my printer. I know, I know download the new drivers. I did, then it worked sometimes but was buggy.
You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right. If I have been driving a ford for years without any problems and I switch to a chevy and suddenly have all kinds of problems without changing the way I drive or anything else, the problem is chevy. Thats just the way it works.
At lest twice you have questioned if I was a computer tech. I think my background is on my profile. I have been working on computers for about 10 years and working with them sense the apple 2. I run a small shop and have for the last 6 years I will be expanding soon. I'm friends with other techs that have over 25 years in the industry and they agree with me as well. So what you are saying is that thousands of people including other computer techs are wrong and its all their fault if Vista is buggy. Can't argue with that logic I guess.
As far as why its flying off the shelves, around here its not anymore. Enough people bought it at the start of the year and had so many problems with it the word got out real fast. The people I know at staples, office max, best buy, were told to push the hell out of vista. And the people at the local Dell shop are told to not tell customers about being able to go back to XP unless they ask. Its called marketing and big business. Microsoft also counts each new system that comes with Vista preinstalled as a sale of Vista. Try finding an xp machine in your local name shop.
You said that if all these XP people were not having problems with their systems I would not have a business? Let me tell you what I get called out to do on XP machines: about 90% of the time its spyware/adware/malware/virus related. Setting up a home network. Someone forgot their password. Hard drive went out. these are just some of what I have had In the past week, but its these kinds of problems. Not so with Vista: slow data transfer from one local drive to another ( had that one myself ). random shut down, BSOD, " vista compatible " nero making costers again and when removed taking the drive firmware with it ( you could argue this is a nero problem, but it never did this on xp ), system wont reboot after Microsoft update, an entire account deleted. ect.
I'm not sure why you are pushing Vista, maybe money, maybe you have just convinced yourself that you are right and the rest of the world is just to stupid to use Vista. I don't know. What I do know is that everytime I shoot down one of your points, you switch to something else or point the finger at me or the customer. Last time I checked blaming the customer for a buggy product was not good business. You should either fix the product or replace it with one that does work (XP).

 

[greggh]

Simple proof of how bad it is:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258

90% of IT professionals surveyed are not going to Vista, overwhelmingly because of stability. Of those, Vista was so bad that 44% have considered alternative operating systems..

 

[gunslinger]

Simple proof of how bad it is:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/infrastructure/applications/news/index.cfm?newsid=6258

90% of IT professionals surveyed are not going to Vista, overwhelmingly because of stability. Of those, Vista was so bad that 44% have considered alternative operating systems..

But greggh those 865 IT professionals and 5,299 customers you have had are all dip shits that don't know how to install updated drivers, just ask dipper he will tell ya.......... a hint of sarcasm there you think?

 

[dipper]

Everyone I know used the Vista update advisor before upgrading, not real sure what you mean by "proper testing"

You call your self a tech and and all you do for proper testing is run Vista Update Adviser!

By proper testing I mean:
1) You find out want the clients wants and needs are. Or what you require out of the machine.
2) You build a machine and then test it with Vista.
3) Run the software on the machine that you / the client wants. Test to see if it works. This is probably the most important step ie you test out what you or the client wants.
4) Test other popular software.
5) Give the machine to others to use and play around with. Get their first hand opinions.

Then if eveything the client wants runs you put the machine into production and / or use the same components in new machines. It sounds like you do not have a test machine to see if things work and / or have issues under Vista using the componets your recommend.

If a particular device and / or software does not work is there another product that will do the same job that does work.

Since Vista RC1 etc has been out for around a year now you should now what works and what doesn't work under Vista. Thus when a client asks you are in a proper position to give the client the correct answer and recommend the best solution (which in the majority of my cases has been to use XP).

Note that I still recommend XP for some clients. You though seem to totally dismiss Vista and blame all Vista problems on Microsoft.

And in case you haven't read my comment above I have stated Vista is not perfect.

 

[gunslinger]

Ran Vista on a few test machines, been running it sense Dec. last year beta 2 then the full version in January. Tested the 64 and 32 bit versions, and you know what? they are all crap. The 64 bit version is even worse than the 32 bit. If I hand built every computer I worked on maybe I would have better control over some of the issues people have, but most bought their Vista machine from the store or ordered it from Dell and it came with Vista on it. There is not one good reason I can think of to recommend Vista. I will continue to recommend XP untill Vista works or Microsoft stops supporting XP.
You said that I "totally dismiss Vista and blame all Vista problems on Microsoft" ......um, well they made Vista who else should I blame?

 

[dipper]

Every point you have tried to make has been shot down.

What Vista is not perfect has been shot down? I thought you agreed with that statement I made?????

how can you blame the end user?

You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right.

You contradict yourself in the same post?How I can I just blame the end user when you then say I blame 3rd party apps and you?

most of the people I know that are having problems with Vista, myself included did'nt change a thing. But now most of the software I want to use wont work, including my printer. I know, I know download the new drivers. I did, then it worked sometimes but was buggy.

Great, you have taken one step - ie you know what doesn't work - now go out and find what does. For myself I take this as being part of my job to find out what does and doesn't work. This way I can provide the best advice to my clients when they ask about Vista rather than just providing a general Vista is crap statement. Yes I know you cannot test everything but you should have at least a general understanding of what works (and if you don't try and have a machine where you can test it).

You have blamed the end user, 3rd party apps, and me for Vista not working right. If I have been driving a ford for years without any problems and I switch to a chevy and suddenly have all kinds of problems without changing the way I drive or anything else, the problem is chevy. Thats just the way it works.

So if you put a working Chevy engine in your Ford and it doesn't work you will go to a car forum and jump up and down and complain that the Chevy engine is crap? (knowing my luck and having little car knowledge this would probably work ok, but I'm assuming its not. If it does then substitute a Toyata engine or something).

So what you are saying is that thousands of people including other computer techs are wrong and its all their fault if Vista is buggy. Can't argue with that logic I guess.

So you are saying that myself and other techs (along with IBM, HP, Acer, Lenova, etc) who all have working Vista machines are all wrong?


As I have said previously Vista is not suitable for everyone and is not perfect but you as a tech should have the knowledge to at least build or sourced a working Vista machine (which it seems you can't despite many other having done so) and / or know when and where Vista is suitable?

Try finding an xp machine in your local name shop.

I still sell XP machines. BTW By that comment I take it you can't? If so (or when in the future you can't source XP any more) what are you going to do? By your own comments you will not sell Vista so will you be selling just Linux machines and or 2nd had copies of XP?

I'm not sure why you are pushing Vista, maybe money, maybe you have just convinced yourself that you are right and the rest of the world is just to stupid to use Vista. I don't know.

I'm pushing whats best for the client and finding out their needs and wants. If they want Vista I sell them a working Vista machine. If they have equipment / software that doesn't work in Vista or don't want Vista I sell them XP. But I am not blinded by the blanket Vista is crap mentality that is our there that you seem to have.

What I do know is that everytime I shoot down one of your points, you switch to something else or point the finger at me or the customer.

Changing topic - thats a laugh I'm still waiting for your answer as to how Vista can make you lose 6G of data (this is the 3rd time I have asked).

Last time I checked blaming the customer for a buggy product was not good business. You should either fix the product or replace it with one that does work (XP).

You as a tech should know what does and doesn't work.

 

[dipper]

well they made Vista who else should I blame?

Oh no my DOS game by XYZ company doesn't work under Vista. Let's go and blame Microsoft.

Or since you brought up cars in another post - this towbar from ABC company doesn't fit my Ford even though ABC says it does. Let's go blame Ford.

BTW What Microsoft program are you having problems with under Vista?

 

[gunslinger]

The number of people having problems with vista far exceeds the number of people that have had no problems most likely by 1000-1 if not more. You say you have asked me about my data loss 3 times I think this is correct, and i'm willing to go into detail about the crash if you can answer my question: how can you blindly ignore all the facts and figures and numbers put before you and in good conscious recommend Vista to anyone? And anyone who reads this can see that you are pushing Vista as hard or harder than the big stores.

 

[gunslinger]

I try to give my customers a product that works. If they go home with their new shiny Vista machine and none of their stuff works anymore its not my fault, but it sure does look bad on me.
And no, I will not sale Vista untill the bugs are worked out.

 

[JohnR]

Great, you have taken one step - ie you know what doesn't work - now go out and find what does.

He has.

XP works right AND meets his customers' needs. Why would he change that?

So if you put a working Chevy engine in your Ford and it doesn't work you will go to a car forum and jump up and down and complain that the Chevy engine is crap? (knowing my luck and having little car knowledge this would probably work ok, but I'm assuming its not. If it does then substitute a Toyata engine or something).

No, your analogy is pretty good, just for reasons that you don't understand.

You SHOULD be able to replace any engine with any other engine of approximately the right size, on any vehicle - whether that means XP Pro or Ubuntu 7.10 or Windows 2000 or Windows Vista, any desktop OS that you meet the basic hardware requirements for should work in your PC. Sure, server OSen probably won't work right, but you didn't buy a truck. You bought a car.

What happens, however, is that when you stick Vista into a PC, what you get is the equivalent, in your car analogy that you don't understand, of tossing in an underpowered 4-cylinder sewing machine engine into your brand new F-350. Sure, you CAN do it, and sure, if you're lucky, almost everything will work just fine - but you'll be slow and noisy and wasteful.

I'm pushing whats best for the client and finding out their needs and wants.

Funny how that turns out to be "XP is better" in just about every case, isn't it?

If they want Vista I sell them a working Vista machine.

As do I. However, I make sure I'm selling them a version of Vista that carries downgrade rights for *when*, not if, Vista fails to meet their needs, and if their hardware doesn't have XP support, I make sure they know that before they order it.

when in the future you can't source XP any more) what are you going to do? By your own comments you will not sell Vista so will you be selling just Linux machines and or 2nd had copies of XP?

Vista Business or Ultimate = XP Pro. One for one, right out of the box. Owning a VB or VU license gives you the right to use XP, just like owning XP Pro gives you the right to install 2000 instead.

This is not complicated.

And by the time ME2K7's replacement comes out, either "the year of Linux on the desktop" will finally have arrived, or MS will have fixed the things that make a *working* installation of Vista far less attractive to the consumer and the technician than the XP Pro license they replaced it with.

 

[dipper]

The number of people having problems with vista far exceeds the number of people that have had no problems most likely by 1000-1 if not more.

I have repeatedly said it is not perfect and that is why I recommend research and testing and do not go and say generalised comments like "Vista is crap".

You say you have asked me about my data loss 3 times I think this is correct, and i'm willing to go into detail about the crash if you can answer my question: how can you blindly ignore all the facts and figures and numbers put before you and in good conscious recommend Vista to anyone?

Because
- I try and find out as much as I can about the clients needs and then recommend whats the best for them (which could be XP or Vista).
- I have 2 machines with Vista in my office that work fine (one for approx 1 year and 1 for 2 months).
- I have sold Vista machines and the feedback from clients is good.
- clients have purchased Vista machines from elsewhere and they have had little problems.

This is not to say that Vista is perfect for everyone. As I have stated in this thread I have downgraded machines to XP for people where Vista is an issue.

And anyone who reads this can see that you are pushing Vista as hard or harder than the big stores.

How does saying that I provide clients with what they require mean I am pushing Vista? You are the one IMHO that is blindly ignoring Vista while I am selling either Vista or XP according to my clients needs and wants.

FYI I have sold more XP machines that Vista machines this year.

 

[dipper]

He has.

XP works right AND meets his customers' needs. Why would he change that?

Because heaven forbid the client may want Vista? If so I then don't go and say "vista is crap". I ask their needs and if it is suitable sell them Vista if not then I explain the reasons why XP. Why sell an old product when the new product does what they need?

No, your analogy is pretty good, just for reasons that you don't understand.

You SHOULD be able to replace any engine with any other engine of approximately the right size, on any vehicle - whether that means XP Pro or Ubuntu 7.10 or Windows 2000 or Windows Vista, any desktop OS that you meet the basic hardware requirements for should work in your PC.

Preceise, it SHOULD work but as you know in some cases it doesn't but in some cases it does. You choose what is correct in the circumstance and not totally ignore other options like a lot of techs are doing.

Funny how that turns out to be "XP is better" in just about every case, isn't it?

So it is now "just about every case". What about the other cases then which is what I'm trying to get through??????????? I take it you ignore Vista and still push XP?

As do I. However, I make sure I'm selling them a version of Vista that carries downgrade rights for *when*, not if, Vista fails to meet their needs, and if their hardware doesn't have XP support, I make sure they know that before they order it.

If the system does not meet their needs then why sell it? You should have sold them a system that meets their needs now (whether that is XP or Vista).

Vista Business or Ultimate = XP Pro. One for one, right out of the box. Owning a VB or VU license gives you the right to use XP, just like owning XP Pro gives you the right to install 2000 instead.

This is not complicated.

Hmm, what about no XP drivers. It is more complicated than you think!

What about a user who has purchased Vista Basic!

 

[JohnR]

So it is now "just about every case". What about the other cases then which is what I'm trying to get through?

Under what possible circumstances does a Vista machine meet a client's needs better than an XP machine?

If the system does not meet their needs then why sell it?

As you yourself said, because they insisted on Vista.

And if they insist on Vista, I will get them Vista. And *when* they realise that Vista is much slower and much more resource-intensive and much more annoying than XP, even assuming they got the recommended expensive and suboptimal definitely-Vista-compatible configuration, they switch back to XP.

You should have sold them a system that meets their needs now (whether that is XP or Vista).

There are no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP.

None.

Zero.

If you run into a piece of hardware that only offers Vista support, such as Lenovo's newest X61 tablets, it's better AND much cheaper to with different hardware - such as ASUS' R1F tablets, which run XP Tablet (Pro) instead.

Hmm, what about no XP drivers. It is more complicated than you think!

#1: Buy hardware that IS supported.

When nobody buys Vista-only hardware, the manufacturers can either put out drivers for other OSen, or they can lose their entire line.

#2: You can still get *95/98/ME* drivers for most hardware these days. You want to tell me that "Vista only" is going to become a serious problem in the lifetime of Vista? I don't think so.

What about a user who has purchased Vista Basic!

I have an advantage, here, in that I only deal with corporations: Nobody serious about computing wants crippleware, even if it does have useless flashy things, so nobody *buys* XP Home or Vista Basic or even Vista Premium.

But, in the unlikely event that my client disregards me entirely and buys Vista Basic, and discovers that it doesn't work, I'll get them a good price on a retail XP Pro or Vista Business with downgrade rights. And if they don't want to spend the $200-$300 it takes to give them all the usability they want, they stick with Vista, and simply swear about all the time and effort it's costing them. It's their choice.

 

[Bryce W]

dipper and gunslinger, play nice.

I am going to step in here with my views. I posted this on another forum some time ago:

I work as a computer technician and I have seen and fixed many Vista computers. I have even used Vista on my main machine for a while.

Vista in itself is a pretty good OS (shock horror!). Hear me out though, most of Vistas issues including the ones here arent really Vistas fault.

- Slowness: Manufacturers are selling computers that are too underpowered for Vista. Ive seen a brand spanking new laptop with Vista that was sold with only 512 ram, much of that was taken up by the video card so it was really running with around 400mb or ram. Although Vista is resource heavy, its not Vistas fault that machines are being sold without the recommended requirements.

- Drivers and such: This was the deal breaker for me to revert back to XP. My printer wasnt supported yet and probably wont ever be (its like 5 years old, but is cheap to run and uber fast). Creating a driver for it is the responsibility of the device manufacturer, not Vistas.

- Crashes: Ive fixed many crashing Vista machines. Most of it is caused by crappy drivers, especially Video cards and soundcards. Once again, the stability of the drivers is the responsibility of the device manufacturer.

- Security and the UAC: One of the few things that is actually Vistas fault. Vista's security only helps newbie users from making dumb mistakes such as clicking on something they shouldnt. Its pretty useless for most advanced users and most viruses/adware/spyware will still get by. Just helps prevent dumb mistakes.

- Vista file copying/network issues: This one is Vistas fault was well. Something is not quite right in that part at the moment. Copying files is terribily slow but Im sure the next service pack will fix this up.

On a modern machine (im talking this years hardware) Vista is excellent. I just was forced to go back to XP because my other hardware like my printer was too old. Right now, I wouldnt recommend Vista to my computer repair clients, its a good OS but its just too new.

 

[dipper]

Under what possible circumstances does a Vista machine meet a client's needs better than an XP machine?

As I previously stated and you actually quoted it (duh!) "because they insisted on Vista."

And if they insist on Vista, I will get them Vista. And *when* they realise that Vista is much slower and much more resource-intensive and much more annoying than XP, even assuming they got the recommended expensive and suboptimal definitely-Vista-compatible configuration, they switch back to XP.

There are plenty of people happy with and are still using Vista.

There are no situations in which Vista is a superior choice to XP.

None.

Zero.

You forgot one of the most important the client requests it.

In cases where XP is better if you can then explain clearly why Vista isn't the best (in case of incompatiblities or whatever) rather than a generalised "Vista is crap" comment then that is what you are paid for.

And if they don't want to spend the $200-$300 it takes to give them all the usability they want, they stick with Vista, and simply swear about all the time and effort it's costing them. It's their choice.

While others are using Vista fine (yes some people have problems but not everyone) and laughing at all the ill informed Vista is crap comments supposedly knowledgable techs make.

FYI This was written on a Vista Ultimate laptop that hasn't crashed or BSOD since it was put on over a year ago!