Do you need paperwork?

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I have the opposite opinion. I feel that having a client, especially a brand new one you met a few moments ago sign anything resembling a legal contract will have the effect of scaring of some. People seldom read them and they will wonder what is in them. They instinctively know that they are to protect you not them. Their guard will go up as they feel they are about to be hoodwinked or hog tied. They won't say "I dont trust you but I am not going with you." they will say things like "let me think about it." and you never hear from them again. This is an invisible cost to you as you will never know what happened.

Perhaps not so in some of the more litigious states like California where nobody does anything without talking to their lawyer but it definitely does hurt you in trusting environments such as in the Midwest.

It is a bad business decision to start managing your business based on the minority bad client. Some of you would submit every new client to what they might feel is a legal shakedown because a very few of them sough to beat you in some way. I say that is a cost of doing business, just move on. Here is my story.

I was operating about 3 years when I got into a disagreement with a client or few about the exact way of completing a job and I ended up doing more work for free (in my mind) to get the job completed and to get paid. This disturbed me so i went out and got a contract/invoice that clearly spelled out my scope of job, when I get paid, who pays court costs when a disagreement and balanced some responsibility on the client to check and approve some of those check points in large projects/items during the course of the job rather than a pass fail at the end.

I had these beautiful forms created. Contract-invoices layed out and printed professionally by a print shop. They were very attractive, expensive and even had a map/ledger on part of the front with room for me to write directions from the closes major intersection to their location. I was very proud of myself for having accomplished this. They were 3 part NCR paper so I could give a copy with the bid, another copy for my work order and third copy for the final invoice for payment when done. They had serialized invoice numbers. I think I had about 5000 made and it cost me a bundle compared to my earnings at the time (well over a weeks earnings).

Front was the invoice, back were the terms. I made sure it was all in non legalese so not to scare folks. It was plain language. It had 13 one or two sentence statements/elements or paragraphs and fit easily on one page, the back of the invoice. The most harsh thing it said is if we went to court the loser paid both sides court costs.

My new client acceptance rate on jobs and projects immediately fell like a rock. I am the type that writes down all my proposals/bids and keeps track of my closing ratio (sales term for number of jobs I get to the number of jobs I bid) and since this ratio is usually consistent over time, I used it as an indicator of whether something is wrong with my presentation or price or changes in the market and what have you. My acceptance rate dropped like a rock which immediately pointed to the new invoices. Previous to that i had used a "invoice pad" purchased at office max with my name/address and logo printed on the top with a ink pad I would put my logo stamp on them after purchasing the pad. No legal mumbo jumbo, no declarations....

I tried using them for a month or so to see if it was me, some how focusing the attention to them and causing my own problems. Never recovered my sales until I stopped using those invoices. They were nothing spooky at all. Why did they effect my sales. I had no idea that they might so it wasn't a case of self fulfilling prophecy.

I am sorry and I do not mean to be disagreeable to those who recommend legal paperwork but I feel strongly that people should be aware of the alternative actions that might happen if they bone up on "legal paperwork." In our attempts to be ultra sophisticated we might loose business.

OK maybe some of you who do long term projects, complicated multi week networking engagements, large scale web site development and things that cannot be easily understood or explained in a sentence or two might have a case for legal contracts/invoices or statements of scope of project, but many of the break fix do not-IMO.

I've also noticed since that time 15 years ago that whenever a new vendor gives me a terms packed invoice or proposal, I tend to back away and favor the less formal companies bids.

From the aspect of salesmanship it is explained by "never bring up a negative." What can be more negative than telling a client in writing all the things that could go wrong, or worse indicated "Something? might go wrong."

 

[ArtemusComputerTechnology]

I use paperwork for anything especially in this field..

 

['putertutor]

Nice post, Tony. I agree with you 100%. Like you said, location probably carries some influence here, but I have lived in both very large and very small cities, and I can't remember a time when a service provider asked me so sign or read anything upfront. Appliance guys, most non-dealer mechanics, install guys, even many general contractors and handy men have never asked for a signature or provided documentation upfront.

I have terms on my invoice relating to payment methods and timelines, as well as some mention of the customer's responsibility to notify me of damage/problems within a reasonable time. Depending on the customer, I may or may not get a signature from them at the time of delivery.

I was once told by a lawyer that the best contract in the world won't keep you out of court, and no matter what you put in it, if you are in the wrong, it won't make you right. I work hard at what I do and take pride in my integrity and ethics. For me, and for my customer's, that's all the contract we need.

 

[Encrypted Existence]

I agree with your post in general Tony. My question to you is this...how do you protect yourself from potential liability resulting from data loss when working on a client's computer? I have as part of the declaration that the client signs before I begin any work that they understand and agree that my company will not be held liable for any loss of data under any circumstance. I am not just addressing this question to Tony, I am open to any and all answers or opinions.

 

[NYJimbo]

OK maybe some of you who do long term projects, complicated multi week networking engagements, large scale web site development and things that cannot be easily understood or explained in a sentence or two might have a case for legal contracts/invoices or statements of scope of project, but many of the break fix do not-IMO.

Nothing ? Really ? Do you have anything in writing you can share here so we can have a idea as to what you will want on paper ?

I will not accept a customers computer unless they sign a short but important disclaimer. If they do not sign it AND DATE IT, they can go back outside and play in traffic for all I care.

Maybe I am missing the point of this thread but it sounds like you just want to take a machine from somebody without any kind of written agreement on what you are doing or what you are liable for. I can't imagine any seasoned tech doing that.

 

[Kitten Kong]

I'm with Jim on this one. Nothing gets done in here, without my clients reading and signing the below.

What is actually being done to the machine, is not listed here, but in pcrt, it does list everything. Also apologies for the formatting. Simple c&p.

Thank you for choosing Cadishead Computers to repair your computer. Please keep this ticket and present it at the time of pickup of your computer.

Cadishead Computers will diagnose the computer at a charge of £20.00. We will then send you a email, or call with an estimate and approximate repair time required for the repair. After you agree to the esitmate, we will proceed with the repair. In the event of the computer not repairable, or you do not agree to the estimate that we provide, it will be returned to you, together with a invoice for £20.00. Under no circumstances will Cadishead Computers do any work, without a signed work order.

DATA BACKUPS
Please be advised that while nothing will be done by our techs to purposely cause loss of data and files from your computer, mechanical failure of computer components can happen without warning, and virus infections can cause unpredictable problems.

Cadishead Computers does not accept any liability for data or software which is lost, corrupted, deleted or altered during any repair. The customer accepts full responsibility for customer software and data, and Cadishead Computers are not required to advise or remind customers of appropriate backup and other procedures.

If you have important information on your computer, such as family pictures, or financial records, and wish to minimize the risk of loss of data, please enquire about our backup services, which can be performed before intensive diagnostic tests or virus scans are performed.

Cadishead Computers can however backup your data prior to any work being undertaken. If you would like this service, then please initial here. _______________. (A fee applies to all backups.)

WINDOWS LICENSE KEY

If at any point, we need to reformat your computer or laptop, we will require the original licence key, and recovery media in order for us to effect the repair. If there is no licence key available, or the licence key is not legible then no further work will be done until such time, as either a new copy of Microsoft Windows Operating System is purchased, or it is agreed for Cadishead Computers to contact the manufacturer of your computer and request recovery media for the computer. The client will be charged for the recovery media if it is required. If the client does not wish to purchase a copy of windows, or purchase the required recovery media then no further work will be undertaken, and the customer will be charged and invoiced for the time spent to that point – i.e. a maximum of 1 hours labour (£35.00).

Please be advised that if the operating system requires reloading, you will be contacted by us first before we perform the service. You may opt to have us backup your information before we perform the service for an additional charge. If you do not agree to the backup, then all data will be lost. Cadishead Computers can not be held liable for this data loss.

An operating system reload, requires that the computer hard drive be formatted, and erased before reinstalling the operating system software. A reload also requires that you reinstall all printer drivers, and additional software programs you may have installed since the original purchase of the computer. We cannot restore computer programs from a backup. They must be reinstalled from their original sources.

By signing this form, I hereby give notice that I have read the above terms and conditions, (for a copy of our full terms and conditions, please visit our website) and consent Cadishead Computers to do any and all permitted work.

Signed client ______________________________________ Date ______________________

 

[lsi]

I only get paperwork signed for managed services contracts and nothing else. I don't require any sort of contract or paperwork for my break/fix stuff. I gave up on the hassle of getting work orders signed on the off chance that I get one of those customers that doesn't like to pay their bill. I usually don't even require a deposit or purchase order for equipment under $5,000. I just make sure that they approve the purchase in an email conversation and that is legal correspondence.

I have had some companies expect all sorts of legal paperwork and they want to examine the terms but to me that is either a red flag or maybe just a sign they have been burned in the past. Here is what I've observed with my clients: the businesses that align with the same values of my business are the ones that stick and become long term customers. I do business on a handshake and a lot of trust. If a customer doesn't like the way they were billed for something I fix it no problem. I charge what is fair and my customers don't try to get me to work for nothing. I attract the same types of business people - those that are laid back, trust me enough to do whatever I recommend, and don't need a bunch of legal paperwork to get along. I know a guy that charges a lot more than I do - almost double. He deals with high stress executive types and pages and pages of contracts and SLAs. He attracts the customers that prefer to do business that way (especially big law firms). You will probably notice that pizza techs attract low-budget bargain seekers. My theory is that I'm a handshake kind of guy and most of the customers that have aligned themselves with my business are the same. I won't say I haven't been burned every once in a while by not having some sort of signed work order but beyond that I've done well by not having much in the way of legal paperwork.

Now employees, otoh, are required to sign all sorts of paperwork including Non-competes, non-recruit (they can't be recruited by customers to work directly in IT positions), non-disclosure, equipment and tool checkout records, etc.

 

[red12049]

Nothing ? Really ? Do you have anything in writing you can share here so we can have a idea as to what you will want on paper ?

I will not accept a customers computer unless they sign a short but important disclaimer. If they do not sign it AND DATE IT, they can go back outside and play in traffic for all I care.

Maybe I am missing the point of this thread but it sounds like you just want to take a machine from somebody without any kind of written agreement on what you are doing or what you are liable for. I can't imagine any seasoned tech doing that.

I ran an auto repair business in your general area for ten years. Never had anyone sign anything except a credit card receipt.

I've run a computer business here (NC) for about 16 years now, same story, except for HIPPA stuff, and then it's me signing.

I'm with Tony on this one.

Rick

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I agree with your post in general Tony. My question to you is this...how do you protect yourself from potential liability resulting from data loss when working on a client's computer? I have as part of the declaration that the client signs before I begin any work that they understand and agree that my company will not be held liable for any loss of data under any circumstance. I am not just addressing this question to Tony, I am open to any and all answers or opinions.

Two major components protect the consultant or IT guy.

First, The courts have held that a consultant particularly a small consulting firm of a half dozen consultants or less are merely an extension of your employee pool. They are a class of employee and as such they cannot be held responsible for some, most accidental things. Your automatic limitation to data loss in most cases is the amount you charged to do the data backup. So you could lose the income from the backup.

There are several reasons for this. Besides being a class of employee which everyone knows all mistakes made by an employee are the employers responsibility, everyone must have a backup plan.

Second protection to the consultant: If the client has no backup plan or his backup plan is faulty that releases anyone else from burden of loss of data as it was his responsibility to begin with. He cannot pass his burden to you.

I dated a couple of three Lawyers over the years and my best friend is a Federal Judge and I was surprised to hear these two theories of law.... I have had so many lawyer clients over the years and I have had every opportunity to do trade outs for contracts and most of them just nod that for my small company I really do not need more than a simple notice on the wall of my place of business.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

The purpose of this tread was for everyone to get an idea of the pro's and con's of doing the extra step of paper work. I respect your opinions regardless of which way your personal preferences lean.

Thank you all for reading the thread and participating in the debate. I'm not trying to switch anyone's mind on the subject only to balance the subject from what others have written.

In my retail store I do have a poster with some store policies:

I declare:

We accept Cash, no checks unless prearranged with management.
We reserve the right not to accept credit cards.
There is a $39.99 minimum charge on each piece of equipment checked in.
Backup your data- as we have no responsibility to do so and will not be held responsible for your data even when you contract with us to perform a backup for you.
Your computer will be considered abandoned and sold for credit due after 14 days of no contact with you.
In the event of catastrophe or theft we are not responsible for losses of your equipment.

I have some more policies but cannot remember them off top of my head.

 

[nesrinamb]

I completely agree with you on the whole issue with paperwork. It especially scares residential customers and now the only time I use it is when i am doing big projects for businesses. When I'm doing something like virus removal I just ask for cash or credit card.

 

[cooltech]

Well with no contract then they would beable to take your business from you so that they can beable to pay the client for the damages to their property and all that time you spent trying to build your business and reputation would be for no reason.

I know their is no ironclad contract but still not having one could be even worse for your business. I mean it would be nice to not have contracts but we would not be here today without them.

But it's really up to the individual person if they real want a contract for their business or should I say loss. When you have built a 5,000 or 10,000 dollar business and you now have to walk away from it. Of course I am looking at it for the long term goal. And you would not want this on your financial records too.

I have not had this done to me but have heard a lot of horror storys. And some that are still in prison for it.

It has made me more cautious as a business person since now knowing about this little bit of info about contracts.

 

[nightkingdoms]

I require a signature at every client call whether that be business or residential. Businesses (unless really small) never have a problem with it, some residential and like I said the smaller businesses can sometimes have a problem with it. I have never had anyone not use my services because of the agreement.

It's been my personal experience that there are two types of people: The ones that want to know what it says, generally. And the ones that want to read it fully themselves. For the ones that want a summary, I look over it while I'm talking to them to make sure they understand what I'm saying without the larger words and in plain English (god forbid you can write a contract in plain English when a lawyer's involved). They always appreciate it and we're ready to sign.

The second type of person is the one that doesn't trust you and wants to read it before you ever touch their computer. For those I always offer to explain the summary version or provide them with a large print format of the agreement that they can keep. If they want to sit there and read the entire agreement word-for-word, I simply tell them that the time starts when I hit the door, so take all the time they need. For the ones that balk at me saying that, I remind them that they're payment me for my time and skill.

I continue with if I didn't charge for my time, I would never get paid. If they continue with balking at paying for my time while they read the agreement, I offer to email them a copy of the blank work order (or large format print agreement) and to call back to reschedule once they're satisfied with it. At that point they seem to understand, sign it, and continue to read it while I work on their computer. I just simply explain there is nothing on the agreement I am trying to hide, the terms are very reasonable and I will happily go over it or answer any questions that they may have.

Until recently I had single 2-page forms with printing on the front and back. Each page was a duplicate of the other with the carbon copying feature. White was my copy, yellow was theirs. They sign it, I complete it, they sign again to confirm everything was given back/to their satisfaction, rip off their copy and hand it to them. Recently I moved away from the custom print jobs for the forms and now use an Android tablet doing everything on that with Square as well.

 

[Deadeye]

In the event of catastrophe or theft we are not responsible for losses of your equipment.

Don't you have insurance for this? the only thing that should be lost is data, as most insurance policies cover theft and catastrophes