Another server question

Big Jim

Big Jim

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Location
Derbyshire, UK
Customer is using a Dell T110 drive configuration is 2 x 1TB SATA drives in RAID-1
partitioned 100GB for OS and the rest as a network/main storage drive.
Windows server essentials 2012, running AD and some basic file sharing, along with Sage server software.
All user folders redirected to server, around 5/6 users in the office all on W10 desktops.


The drives are getting old and about 75% full, so I have suggested upgrading to 2 x SSDs for OS and 2 x 2TB drives for storage.

I have already suggested replacing the server but when we talked costs, customer was extremely shocked at price (I thought in region of £1500 - 1800 for a basic spec server

What would you suggest in this case, I am thinking that budget constraints will rule out Dell drives, but for their use I can't see why i couldn't just use enterprise grade Samsung SSDs and WD Red pros/Golds for storage.

The OS is also running on bare metal, I'm not sure if I should move it to a VM based solution so that we can have a backup AD server running on another VM, on Friday everything went down due to windows installer locking up doing a windows update, however I have served this client for around 6/7 years now and this is the first time they've had a lockup. And I think 2nd time server has had an issue (1st time was caused by a power surge during a powercut, buts its back on a UPS for now)


I know a lot of you guys just wouldn't serve customers like this and would insist on replacing everything with new and having the best of everything, but I have to work with clients who don't have the budget for that and i try and help them as much as I can.
 
How old is the server? Much past 5 years old? Past 7 years old?

How often do you like getting calls on a server..that is well outside support, so you can't call Dell and get help when major things go wrong.

If you're willing to take those risks...., well, first..I'd push the client for another new server. Just doesn't make sense to me to spend over a thousand bucks...on an old old server....just to have something that is continuing to skate on thing ice and be such a risk. It holds the data that a business runs on. Next to employees, the computers are the next most valuable asset for a business. Especially the server!

Anyways, don't forget. The data lives on the data volume. The shared applications live on the data volume. SO...make the data volume sit on fast drives! The benefit of the OS volume being on SSDs only gains the IT a few minutes time during those reboots a few times a year. But day...after day...after day...the employees are working off of the second volume...the data volume. So why punish them with desktop grade slow SATA drives? Make those SSD too!

And get a really good DR (disaster recovery) service in place with a server that old...one that would fall under the Business Continuity category..because that server is likely to really go belly up soon being so old.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
How old is the server? Much past 5 years old? Past 7 years old?

How often do you like getting calls on a server..that is well outside support, so you can't call Dell and get help when major things go wrong.

If you're willing to take those risks...., well, first..I'd push the client for another new server. Just doesn't make sense to me to spend over a thousand bucks...on an old old server....just to have something that is continuing to skate on thing ice and be such a risk. It holds the data that a business runs on. Next to employees, the computers are the next most valuable asset for a business. Especially the server!

Anyways, don't forget. The data lives on the data volume. The shared applications live on the data volume. SO...make the data volume sit on fast drives! The benefit of the OS volume being on SSDs only gains the IT a few minutes time during those reboots a few times a year. But day...after day...after day...the employees are working off of the second volume...the data volume. So why punish them with desktop grade slow SATA drives? Make those SSD too!

And get a really good DR (disaster recovery) service in place with a server that old...one that would fall under the Business Continuity category..because that server is likely to really go belly up soon being so old.
Click to expand...
You are right, I'll try and put a case together that is convincing for a new server.

They are the type of place that has the attitude "leave it until it breaks" I hear the conversations that take place about the plant machinery they have that is old and worn out whilst I am on site to and its much the same.
That being said the owner isn't completely stupid so I hope I can get him to listen to me.

server age I don't know for sure, I got this client mid 2017 and it was already setup, I think it was bought same time as there desktops which were 4th gen i5 machines, which is around 2014 isn't it?
 
Just doing some quick price checking and the proposed drive upgrade with server essentials 2019 would come in at half the price of a new dell server with 2 x 1TB drives configured, and you know how Dell like to charge for storage media, I am not going to be able to convince them to spend double the money on a new server.

In terms of supporting it, I'm relatively happy with it as I have no contract with them, they work on break/fix with me.
 
Dell server....look at the service tag, go to dell.com/support and enter the service tag. You'll have the info there...including date shipped.

Most RMMs pick up the service tag...if you don't have an RMM, and remote in without going onsite, the Dell update software for the server will show it. If it doesn't have that installed, there's a powershell (or CMD prompt) command you can run to pull the service tag (I can't recall it but can find via Google).
 
T110 is a repackaged desktop, but aside from a lack of out of band management isn't too bad! But, if that thing does what they need to do, Teams would do what they need to do too.

I'd quote a full replacement with a Datto, and an M365 Migration and watch them jump on the latter.
 
Big Jim said:
Just doing some quick price checking and the proposed drive upgrade with server essentials 2019 would come in at half the price of a new dell server with 2 x 1TB drives configured, and you know how Dell like to charge for storage media, I am not going to be able to convince them to spend double the money on a new server.

In terms of supporting it, I'm relatively happy with it as I have no contract with them, they work on break/fix with me.
Click to expand...

Are you aware Server 2019 is not a supported OS for the T110? In fact it doesn't support anything past 2008R2 so unless this has been upgraded once already I suspect you actually have a T110 II which supports 2012 but still doesn't support 2016 or 2019.

This isn't to say it won't work on 2019. But you might have trouble finding drivers or experience odd compatibility bugs because it's never been fully tested. Personally, this bundled with the age and poor spec to begin with, I don't think is worth the risk for something as critical as a server. At least make it very clear this is not your preferred upgrade path.

Have you thought about finance or leasing? Dell are a PITA to work with but we have used Broadberry (https://broadberry.co.uk) once on a stubborn client. They do mostly SuperMicro servers so not our first choice but the hardware is solid. Just quickly spec'd out a server around £2,000 ex VAT and it shows finance "from £65/month over 3 years" which might sound a lot more manageable to your client?
 
Last edited:
SAFCasper said:
Are you aware Server 2019 is not a supported OS for the T110? In fact it doesn't support anything past 2008R2 so unless this has been upgraded once already I suspect you actually have a T110 II which supports 2012 but still doesn't support 2016 or 2019.

This isn't to say it won't work on 2019. But you might have trouble finding drivers or experience odd compatibility bugs because it's never been fully tested. Personally, this bundled with the age and poor spec to begin with, I don't think is worth the risk for something as critical as a server. At least make it very clear this is not your preferred upgrade path.

Have you thought about finance or leasing? Dell are a PITA to work with but we have used Broadberry (https://broadberry.co.uk) once on a stubborn client. They do mostly SuperMicro servers so not our first choice but the hardware is solid. Just quickly spec'd out a server around £2,000 ex VAT and it shows finance "from £65/month over 3 years" which might sound a lot more manageable to your client?
Click to expand...
Hadn't even thought about OS compatibility, its a very valid point.
Finance option could swing this actually.

obviously for £2k they aren't going to get a server filled with SSDs.
That being said as far as I know since I replaced there 10/100 switch with a gigabit one they haven't had any performance issues with regards to the server/network.
 
I'm not sure how your billing or your rates go. But I'd be very surprised if the server had what's needed under the hood to do Hyper-V with a VM on top. You'd want at least 16gb of RAM. The process of reconfiguring and moving everything over could easily take 6-10 hours on a machine that old. The point being "rebuilding" the old machine, including labor, could easily cost more that what a new machine setup would be. And the old machine will still run like a dog and have no warranty.
 
The OS compatibility list can be taken with a grain of salt. As much as I don't like running/maintaining "old" servers...it's more from a....hardware support point of view....if something major goes wrong, I want an active support contract on that server so I can call up Dell, or HP, or Lenovo...and have their guys help me with some major RAID issue, or....ship a part overnight or have a guy onsite within 4 hours. I don't want to be responsible for deciding which part of a major hardware issue jumped off the cliff and deal with ordering replacement parts. When a server is down...client expects it back up...FAST.

But for OS compatibility many times the server is older, they don't update drivers anymore, so it may not say "Server 2019 supported"...because they're not adding notes on sunsetted servers. Perhaps new drivers aren't needed, because Windows now has good drivers included. I've installed Windows 10 on many computers that don't have updated "Windows 10 specific" drivers...because the OS loads 'em fine. Runs like a champ. On the servers many times all you need are the hardware and RAID management apps...and if they worked on Server 08 and 12 they'll work just fine on 19. On a server that old though I'd still just plop on 12r2. And not using above to say it's fine to nuke 'n pave that box.

But then you get into "time" like Mark mentioned above....drives the cost up.

Re: SSDs in a server...SAS or M.2 enterprise grade can still be pricy compared to spindles, but SATA SSD is quite affordable now.
And..considering SSDs are THAT much faster. you spend MUCH less time installing, upgrading, bouncing, copying, etc etc. The "little bit more expensive" price of SSDs is more than offset multiple times by the savings in your time. If you're being fair to yourself in your billing.

Not that I'd put SATA spindle drives in a server...but don't forget, Reds/Golds are low RPM drives meant to be used in more budget NAS units...in a RAID setup. If I had to install a SATA spindle drive in a server, I'd use a WD Black at least. But I'd go for a SATA SSD anyways...hardly that much more money, and so much savings in your labor cost.
 
In this case that hardware bit is something to be concerned about...

I have a Dell T330, and it required a BIOS update, RAID firmware update, iDrac BIOS update, iDrac general update, AND RAID card driver updates before it could be upgraded to Server 2019, and it was a server that supported 2016 at launch.

There are a great number of Dell systems that will not work correctly on Server 2019. But most of the issues I've found thus far are RAID card related. So beware, there be dragons here.

I repeat, quote a new server, and an M365 migration, let them choose which to go with, note... the latter is cheaper.
 
I spoke with him today and explained that we're looking at ~£1000 without an OS upgrade and it will potentially last 2 years until 2012 support finishes.
Explained that I wouldn't be happy putting 2019 on it as I don't want to deal with unknown and potentially unresolvable issues.

Then suggested perhaps looking at lease deals if they are available instead. He is going to discuss with his daughter (Office manager and as far as I can tell the one who has the best handle on the state of the business finances) and get back to me with their joint thoughts.


With regards to hardware, it has ran for the last 6/7/8 years on 2 1TB Sata drives in RAID-1, and performance is adequate.
I priced up a 1TB enterprise grade SSD and it was ~£150, Dell want £300 per 250gb SSD when adding it to a new server. It's a huge difference in price.
 
Sky-Knight said:
In this case that hardware bit is something to be concerned about...

I have a Dell T330, and it required a BIOS update, RAID firmware update, iDrac BIOS update, iDrac general update, AND RAID card driver updates before it could be upgraded to Server 2019, and it was a server that supported 2016 at launch.

There are a great number of Dell systems that will not work correctly on Server 2019. But most of the issues I've found thus far are RAID card related. So beware, there be dragons here.

I repeat, quote a new server, and an M365 migration, let them choose which to go with, note... the latter is cheaper.
Click to expand...
I've got a Dell R720 myself and it runs 2019 inside a VM without any issue, having said that it was just a test VM not a live one so don't know if it would have issues if it was live all the time.
 
Big Jim said:
I've got a Dell R720 myself and it runs 2019 inside a VM without any issue, having said that it was just a test VM not a live one so don't know if it would have issues if it was live all the time.
Click to expand...
2019 inside a VM is irrelevant, it's having the platform run 2019 natively that's the issue.

vSphere has even more concerns in this department, if there aren't workable drivers. But the host's actual OS is where these dragons live. Once the host is happy, you can do all the guests you want. Which is why we VM all the things... because they run anywhere.
 
Big Jim said:
I've got a Dell R720 myself and it runs 2019 inside a VM without any issue, having said that it was just a test VM not a live one so don't know if it would have issues if it was live all the time.
Click to expand...

What's underneath it? 2019 again? Free Hyper-V?

Big Jim said:
With regards to hardware, it has ran for the last 6/7/8 years on 2 1TB Sata drives in RAID-1, and performance is adequate. I priced up a 1TB enterprise grade SSD and it was ~£150, Dell want £300 per 250gb SSD when adding it to a new server. It's a huge difference in price.
Click to expand...

Be careful how you build the server. If you leave OEM things out, such as mass storage, and provide them on your own OEM's almost always point the finger at third party stuff first when dealing with repairs. Another thought. Anybody over there that offers refurbs with warranties?
 
Markverhyden said:
What's underneath it? 2019 again? Free Hyper-V?



Be careful how you build the server. If you leave OEM things out, such as mass storage, and provide them on your own OEM's almost always point the finger at third party stuff first when dealing with repairs. Another thought. Anybody over there that offers refurbs with warranties?
Click to expand...
ahh good point hyper v 2012.

I wasn't suggesting specing a brand new server with non dell certified drives, I was just comparing the massive price difference.
 
Dell offers refurbs with warranties. Definitely check this out. More than one "budget conscious" customer has been saved by going this route. Full warranties, good choices. I just installed a refurbed R440 last month that had to have just been ordered by mistake and sent back. There were 10 hours on the SSDs. 2xXeon 4208s, 2x960GB SSD, 64GB RAM, 2x550W PS, PERC H740P. $2,800 direct from Dell. What's not to like?
 
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