Another method for avoiding using a Microsoft account during setup

[britechguy]

Though yeaa...we need you to be online before we can start your own car, that you purchased from us.

The computing world, all of it, is well into the process of dissolving into The Cloud and the speed with which that's happening is increasing. Microsoft is hardly alone, or an exception, in this.

And, in point of fact, other than during initial setup (if you don't pull any tricks during initial setup) you don't have to be online at all to use a Windows 10 or 11 machine while also logging in with a Microsoft Account linked Windows account. The credentials to verify you are held locally because internet connectivity is spotty.

We use cloud-based accounts for our phones, our tablets, virtually anything. Why this is such a big freakin' deal when it comes to the Microsoft Windows OS eludes me. All the more so because, if you so desire, you can set up a local account and nuke any and every Microsoft Account linked Windows user account after the fact. Why one would wish to do that eludes me as well.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy But you need that first Microsoft account, and you need to keep tabs on it... because if you don't you'll lose the encryption key to the encryption you just armed.

@frase Those calls are money, they mean someone brings you a machine and you nuke it and charge them for it. Their data is gone... they can get good habits, or keep replacing equipment and spending until they do.

I'm no longer going to fight this, I accept VISA for your stupidity sir... thank you!

And YES! I have exactly THAT conversation in those words with my clients. Though, admittedly... BEFORE the bomb goes off. I'm vastly more sympathetic to those that had it happen and it's now too late. And yes it's always a chore to retrain the entire blasted planet. But sometimes, we have to do exactly that.

 

[timeshifter]

You now need an HP account to use your own f#$%*&g scanner now.

 

[frase]

You now need an HP account to use your own f#$%*&g scanner now.

Yea that is the most useless Hardly Perfect "APP" ever HP SMART. It never works, always have to whip out the link cable to enable installation, which is never supplied.

A casual user I am not happy with that @Sky-Knight a business user yes of course and that make sense.
It is a reality I understand and we as techs need to deal with, though we shouldn't - wow I would be a billionaire due to MS issues,.

Though for the everyday user at home, it is just not on. The licence structure needs to be amended home vs pro> should align with that,

 

[sapphirescales]

We use cloud-based accounts for our phones, our tablets, virtually anything. Why this is such a big freakin' deal when it comes to the Microsoft Windows OS eludes me.

Because, neither Apple nor Google FORCE you to use a stupid cloud account just to be able to use your phone/tablet. The truth is, 99% of users would choose NOT to use a Microsoft account if given the choice because no one needs or wants to use the Microsoft store, nor do they want to have to pay a monthly subscription just to be able to use THEIR OWN COMPUTER! Make no mistake, that's what this is all about - Microsoft and their insatiable greed.

Their wet dream is to force everyone to be paying monthly just to be able to use their computer. Windows? $9.99/month. Office? Another $7.99/month. Music? $10.99/month. Movies? Another $18.99/month. How are they going to strong arm people into this bullsh*t without FORCING them to use a Microsoft account? They've been trying to do this BS for 10 years now, and you know what? It's NOT WORKING. If it was then they wouldn't feel the need to FORCE people to use a Microsoft account. Microsoft needs a huge frigging lawsuit brought against them.

 

[britechguy]

Because, neither Apple nor Google FORCE you to use a stupid cloud account just to be able to use your phone/tablet.

Er, no. Period. End of Sentence.

Neither an iPhone nor an Android powered device has anywhere near to its full (and most commonly used) functionality without a corresponding cloud account. And it has always been that way.

If you'd prefer that Microsoft do the same kind of neutering on a computer that Apple and Google do if you decline to use a cloud-based account, then be my guest. It's still way easier to get around a cloud account if, for some irrational reason you feel you must, under Windows than on any smartphone.

 

[britechguy]

@britechguy But you need that first Microsoft account, and you need to keep tabs on it... because if you don't you'll lose the encryption key to the encryption you just armed.

Absolutely agree, but not only for that reason, or even necessarily for that reason. As I've said many times already, with the customer demographic I have, one of the things in my setup protocol is turning device encryption OFF. It's been a disaster just waiting to happen in my world too many times already and for the vast majority of home users is just not a good idea.

But I also don't set up local accounts at all anymore. If the client tells me that they don't have a Microsoft Account, they get one. Then life goes on pretty much as it always has, but they have a number of advantages associated with having a cloud-based account linked to their Windows user account. This is one of those situations where I don't even present the option of a local account anymore. And if someone insists that's what they want, I'll refer them to another service provider.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Er, no. Period. End of Sentence.

Neither an iPhone nor an Android powered device has anywhere near to its full (and most commonly used) functionality without a corresponding cloud account. And it has always been that way.

If you'd prefer that Microsoft do the same kind of neutering on a computer that Apple and Google do if you decline to use a cloud-based account, then be my guest. It's still way easier to get around a cloud account if, for some irrational reason you feel you must, under Windows than on any smartphone.

You’re effectively making his point. There’s little benefit from a Microsoft Account unless you purchase Microsoft 365. Unlike a smartphone whose whole experience is directly tied to the Google or Apple account. A phone without a account is crippled. A PC isn’t. And many people have Microsoft 365 on their home PC through work and that’s tied to their work email/M$ account which further complicates matters.

 

[britechguy]

There’s little benefit from a Microsoft Account unless you purchase Microsoft 365.

We'll have to disagree there. Any software purchased from Microsoft (or even third-party sellers of Microsoft products) ends up being linked to your Microsoft Account if you are logged in with a Windows account linked to same when installing it. That's saved my clients' (and, also, my) bacon on more than one occasion.

M365 is far from the only reason that having a linked MS cloud account is advantageous.

But we're right back to this all being a matter of personal opinion in that realm. But fighting against linked cloud-based accounts, on ANY platform, in 2022 is "pissing into the wind." They're here, and they're here to stay. You will become one with The Borg. This is not a battle I find worth fighting against now. Once ubiquity hits, and we're there, it's over.

 

[britechguy]

And many people have Microsoft 365 on their home PC through work and that’s tied to their work email/M$ account which further complicates matters.

Agreed there. But this, again, comes back to the fact that the world of IT professionals has never, ever, invested the necessary effort in training end users to recognize the importance, separation, and overlap of accounts. We have people who believe that because they set up their Microsoft Account using a Google Account as the login ID that somehow the Google and Microsoft Accounts are one and the same. And we (as an industry) created quite a bit of this mess by allowing email addresses to be used as login IDs on services that have zero connection to the actual email service. A Google Account (xxxx@gmail.com, and you can actually skip the "@gmail.com" part) logs you in to each and every Google service and as the same user. I can't remember the last time I've logged in to a Google Account where the "@gmail.com" part was used, and that's across several Google Accounts I have.

Contrast that with what Microsoft (and it's not just them, I hasten to add) have done. One of my Gmail addresses is my login ID for my Microsoft Account. A "behind the scenes" Outlook.com account was created as part of setting that account up that has an address no person will ever remember, probably will never use, and that serves to tie certain things together (I have no idea if that still happens or not, but it did when I initially set up that MS account). It creates mental bedlam, and for very good reason.

We, as an industry, have done almost everything wrong in expectation setting and training end users almost since day one. And when we started "mixing our metaphors" as far as login IDs go, it made matters far, far, far worse. A Gordian Knot of our own making, broadly speaking, regardless of what I (or you) as an individual may espouse.

 

[sapphirescales]

If you'd prefer that Microsoft do the same kind of neutering on a computer that Apple and Google do if you decline to use a cloud-based account, then be my guest.

The only thing you can't do if you refuse to sign into a cloud account on a phone is access the app store. You can still call, send texts, use the GPS, browse the internet, etc. Microsoft does the exact same thing. Without a Microsoft account you can't use their stupid, useless store, and that's it. The difference is, it's difficult for a regular user to sideload apps on iOS and Android whereas with Windows, sideloading "apps" is the normal way of doing this.

A computer is NOT a phone. People have been trying to teach Microsoft this since Windows 8, but they just won't accept it. May it be their downfall.

 

[NviGate Systems]

While I understand everyone has an opinion, the fact is....

For the average user, phones rarely hold any life or death info, so when they are locked out you know what happens? They ditch that useless slab of silicone in the nearest e-waste bin, buy a new one and sign up for a new account and forget about the old one!

Sadly, with a computer, often there are valuable files that simply mustn't be lost, such as tax files and other sensitive business files. Now as much as we preach about backing up, we know it hardly happens. So what happens when a drive is encrypted and Uncle Sam wants to see that tax info? Is Uncle Sam going to accept "Microsoft ate my tax return!" As an excuse? Nope.

There are both good reasons and bad reasons to have an MS Account. Sadly, sooner or later users will learn the hard way.

Until then, why not put all that energy you put forward arguing/discussing/debating/etc/blahblahblah into educating users? Education is the one thing that not only helps the person being educated but others too. Simply moaning that an issue exists isn't enough. Educate your clients about the benefits and risks associated with an MS Account. Physically print out the recovery code and have them keep it in a safe along with other valuables. It could be worth it's weight in gold one day!

 

[nlinecomputers]

If you don’t have a Microsoft Account then your PC doesn’t get encrypted. I personally think your PC should be encrypted because of the sensitive information, like the aforementioned tax returns, they often hold. BUT it has to be a feature that the end user is 100% in command of and has knowledge about. Right now Microsoft hides the process from the end user, doesn’t explain to the end user that it is occurring and then further obscures the process with a machine only PIN! I try to educate end users about all of this but the simple truth is, like backups, they don’t understand, don’t care, and really don’t think it will happen to them. A process made worse with the simple fact that home PC use is continuing to decline. Not having a Microsoft Account tied to the PC is more dangerous but so is having one and not being aware of it. Frankly as end users tend to be dumber than stumps simply avoiding the whole thing is probably better.

As for phones considering the number of people in my circle that have lost/destroyed a phone who cry over their lost photos and contacts I will say that important data is lost.

 

[Blues]

The truth is, 99% of users would choose NOT to use a Microsoft account if given the choice because no one needs or wants to use the Microsoft store,

I don't believe anyone is using their store anymore w/ forced MS accounts than w/o and you can use the store while signing into the PC via a local account so it just makes the forced nature of it and their continued attempts to block methods to circumvent it all the more frustrating.

 

[britechguy]

As for phones considering the number of people in my circle that have lost/destroyed a phone who cry over their lost photos and contacts I will say that important data is lost.

I know people, and plenty of them, who would cry far more bitterly and long were their phones to be permanently lost (regardless of how) than they would about their computers.

They tend to be the younger among my overall client demographic, but smartphones have supplanted computers as the primary device of choice for a very great many people.

One of the things I try to encourage my clients to do as far as their smartphones go is to put a banner message on the lock screen with a phone number (other than the one on the device itself) that can be texted or an email address so that if the phone were accidentally left, anywhere, and someone wished to return it (and it's been my actual field experience that most do) that this makes it incredibly easy to get in touch with the device's owner.

 

[britechguy]

If you don’t have a Microsoft Account then your PC doesn’t get encrypted.

Is that true for Windows 11? And that's a serious question, as I thought I had recalled reports here that even when the tricks that can be used to go direct to a local account when setting up Windows 11 still resulted in a box with encryption on. I could be entirely wrong, but thought I'd ask.

I hate encryption when it's not needed with a burning passion, and I hate just as much the "willy nilly" ways it may or may not be activated with regard to the modern iterations of Windows.

 

[britechguy]

As for phones considering the number of people in my circle that have lost/destroyed a phone who cry over their lost photos and contacts I will say that important data is lost.

Aside: How on earth are they losing their contacts? (That is, unless they chose to use SIM contact storage [and in my world, who does that? Is it even the default these days?])

In almost all instances I'm aware of, Contacts are stored in the cloud and if you set up the same account, be it Google or iCloud, on a new respective device they all come back. Photos, however, are very often a separate issue. I don't store practically any in the cloud, but they do get uploaded to my computer and then become part of what gets backed up every month, on alternating media for even versus odd months.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Aside: How on earth are they losing their contacts? (That is, unless they chose to use SIM contact storage [and in my world, who does that? Is it even the default these days?])

In almost all instances I'm aware of, Contacts are stored in the cloud and if you set up the same account, be it Google or iCloud, on a new respective device they all come back. Photos, however, are very often a separate issue. I don't store practically any in the cloud, but they do get uploaded to my computer and then become part of what gets backed up every month, on alternating media for even versus odd months.

Because they don’t know what their cloud account is. The tech sets it up with a gmail account they never use and never learn any details of the login. Usually because they didn’t know the password to the first account so the cell phone tech just creates a new one.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Is that true for Windows 11? And that's a serious question, as I thought I had recalled reports here that even when the tricks that can be used to go direct to a local account when setting up Windows 11 still resulted in a box with encryption on. I could be entirely wrong, but thought I'd ask.

I hate encryption when it's not needed with a burning passion, and I hate just as much the "willy nilly" ways it may or may not be activated with regard to the modern iterations of Windows.

I don’t see how being that it IS required that you have an account, to store the key. Even the pro version of BitLocker will not creat the encryption until you select your method of backup for the key.

 

[britechguy]

Because they don’t know what their cloud account is. The tech sets it up with a gmail account they never use and never learn any details of the login. Usually because they didn’t know the password to the first account so the cell phone tech just creates a new one.

And I hate to say this, but it is true: You can't fix stupid.

I must live in a fantasy bubble of sorts, but even my senior clients (some of whom I've done the phone setup for, others not) all seem to understand that, for their Android phones the Gmail address (AKA the Google Account) is what keeps them "connected to their email and other stuff, including contacts." The same has been true for iPhone users. And for any client I've ever worked for/with that has ever changed over to a new device, this has been even more true.

And I guess that's one reason among a number of them that I do like the Microsoft Account. In the age of cloud computing, and we need to emphasize to our clients that their smartphones are microcomputers with a phone feature, that what "knits everything together" and keeps them in control of and associated with their data is the respective cloud accounts those devices use.

Even I will agree with @Sky-Knight that those Windows users who are also M365 users have, effectively, made their PCs nothing more than glorified clients to the OneDrive Server (and probably others, too, e.g. Azure) where all of their data is now kept.

If we don't start making it a point to make this critical information known to our clients, then the next few decades are going to be a kind of completely fresh hell and one where we will not be able to help them much in a lot of situations. They've got to know what their own accounts are and for what services. And that's not difficult nor rocket science. A small notebook in a desk will generally cover that, if nothing else.