Microsoft has published the minimum CPU requirements for Windows 11

[Sky-Knight]

That's why I said it was an odd requirement. No need to require something that is universal.

But it's universal because it's required... This is one of those chicken and egg things. And as someone that's worked with hardware vendors for ages building custom stuff... trust me, you want this sort of thing in your SOP, otherwise you'll get stuff you aren't expecting someday.

There comes a point where this process gets so detailed, it's no longer a spec sheet and becomes legalese.

It's exactly as @fincoder says.

 

[britechguy]

It's exactly as @fincoder says.

And what's funny is that even when this stuff is in writing, well ahead of "drop dead" date, it is so often ignored.

I have less "observational experience" with this as far as hardware goes, but plenty of it in the world of software, and particularly assistive technologies. When Windows 10 initially hit the streets it was shocking just how many pieces of software just did not work with it at all well, even though there was no real reason that the work to make them do so could not have been completed well before Windows10 went "into the wild."

Of course, it sometimes works in reverse, too, where Microsoft has screwed something up royally. But all of us are very familiar with that.

But I have no idea what more could be done as far as giving clear direction and deadlines than putting it all in writing. That some who shouldn't be ignoring this information do is not Microsoft's fault.

 

[Sky-Knight]

@britechguy The funny part about software that didn't work with Windows 10 at launch...

Is that it only worked on Windows XP via compatibility layers.

That's how far behind these vendors allowed their junk to get... The longest lived OS in Microsoft history was the "grace period".

And they never bothered to update... not until it flat doesn't work anymore. But the thing is... that's how profit driven things work, you don't spend the money until you have to. Infrastructure and future costs just don't matter to the all mighty today profit.

But I don't need to tell you that, because you've pointed it out on these forums more than once.

 

[nlinecomputers]

In many cases the developers who wrote the software are long gone. “Tech support” knows how to solve common problems but actually adding new features or making compatibility changes is beyond them. They have to hire new developers who either have to learn the in and outs of the old program or write a new comparable product from scratch.

 

[britechguy]

In many cases the developers who wrote the software are long gone.

Which, effectively, means the software is, too.

But, believe it or not, I wasn't thinking about the sorts of things that have been nursed along for years and held together with "spit and bubble gum," but stuff that does actually remain under support and is still being updated to this day.

If you're doing that, and ignoring the oncoming train that is a new version of Windows by intent, then you deserve what you get. Sadly, your users don't.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Which, effectively, means the software is, too.

But, believe it or not, I wasn't thinking about the sorts of things that have been nursed along for years and held together with "spit and bubble gum," but stuff that does actually remain under support and is still being updated to this day.

If you're doing that, and ignoring the oncoming train that is a new version of Windows by intent, then you deserve what you get. Sadly, your users don't.

Experience tells me that really isn't the case. If they have developers they are trained on old versions of coding language old SDKs etc. Microsoft MSDN licensing is expensive and keeping up on your continuing education is also expensive. They keep plugging at the old methods because they can still keep them working... until the day they can't. At which point the companies fold, get bought out, or they fire all the old developers and start from scratch. Rarely do they fund getting the old developers new training and tools in part simply because it's cheaper to get a new team and build a new program than training your old staff.

 

[britechguy]

@nlinecomputers:

What you describe, in vivid detail, is the very definition of "the software is gone, too."

Re-creating something entirely from scratch is creating new software, even if it's purpose is precisely the same. That was my point with regard to stuff that has been nursed along, sans updates, and sans any staff that would even know how, for years.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Experience tells me that really isn't the case. If they have developers they are trained on old versions of coding language old SDKs etc. Microsoft MSDN licensing is expensive and keeping up on your continuing education is also expensive. They keep plugging at the old methods because they can still keep them working... until the day they can't. At which point the companies fold, get bought out, or they fire all the old developers and start from scratch. Rarely do they fund getting the old developers new training and tools in part simply because it's cheaper to get a new team and build a new program than training your old staff.

And the same outfits will continuously whine about a lack of loyalty in their employees.

 

[britechguy]

a lack of loyalty in their employees.

You know, you can probably count on less than two hands the number of companies today where the company has any loyalty whatsoever to employees. One of the reasons I got out of "corporate IT" in the 1990s was that even the places that had decades-long records of two-way loyalty (and I worked for one - AT&T) were rapidly transitioning to treating employees, at all levels, as interchangeable parts.

One of the things that ran me out of software development was the insistence that I give project time estimates in "man hours." I wouldn't, because there is no such thing. You need to know exactly who's on the project and what their experience is before you can even hope to try to have a reasonable guesstimate (and that's still what it is) for timelines for medium to large projects.

I've said, frequently, that until and unless we ever get back to the place where a social compact exists between employers, their employees, and the communities in which both operate we are racing to the bottom. No business survives if the bottom line is the one and only thing that matters. If you treat your employees with the respect they deserve, all else flows from that (and if it can't, then you really can't remain in business for other reasons anyway).

 

[Sky-Knight]

Wait you mean business owners need to actually know and act on the reality that labor is the source of all wealth?

How positively Marxist of you...

For the historically ignorant here, I'm actually making a reference to an address given by President Lincoln. Here have a link: https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/first-annual-message-9 Go read it and lament how far we've fallen as a nation.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight

From my signature quotes file:

Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
~ Abraham Lincoln

Also related, but from the other side of the pond, and about more than just labor:

Though in a state of society some must have greater luxuries and comforts than others, yet all should have the necessities of life; and if the poor cannot exist, in vain may the rich look for happiness or prosperity. The legislature is never so well employed as when they look to the interests of those who are at a distance from them in the ranks of society. It is their duty to do so; religion calls for it; humanity calls for it; and if there are hearts who are not awake to either of those feelings, their own interests would dictate it.
~ Sir Lloyd Kenyon, Rex vs. Rusby, 1800

It's that last clause that seems to be entirely lost on the capitalist class of today.

 

[sapphirescales]

Who doesn't have a front facing camera on their laptops / tablets / phones right now?

A lot of business class laptops. I'm sick and freaking tired of having to make sure every business class laptop I buy actually has an effing webcam. I just ordered a 6 month old Dell Latitude 5510 and forgot to check if it had a webcam. Of course it didn't and I had to send it back. Like WTF???

 

[nlinecomputers]

A lot of business class laptops. I'm sick and freaking tired of having to make sure every business class laptop I buy actually has an effing webcam. I just ordered a 6 month old Dell Latitude 5510 and forgot to check if it had a webcam. Of course it didn't and I had to send it back. Like WTF???

Do You have an exact model number for that? Because I've not seen a laptop in the past 10 years that didn't have a webcam. That was my point about the standards being already universal. I find that statement difficult to believe.

 

[nlinecomputers]

Do You have an exact model number for that? Because I've not seen a laptop in the past 10 years that didn't have a webcam. That was my point about the standards being already universal. I find that statement difficult to believe.

And searching online I've already proven myself wrong. You CAN get them without webcams. Whodathunk? SO @sapphirescales never mind.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

All we deal with are business class laptops (I do tons of Lenovo Thinkpad T, X, and P models). All have webcams, but our Lenovo supplier...he only stocks good models...so...pretty much no chance of us getting an el budget model by accident.

 

[britechguy]

You CAN get them without webcams.

But you generally have to seek that out, very intentionally. There is no doubt that the vast majority of laptops, whether business or consumer class, come equipped with webcams. And that was even pre-pandemic before all the working world started having cyber-meetings.

But, it does mean a quick look at the spec sheet for any model you don't routinely buy is a very good idea indeed.

 

[nlinecomputers]

But you generally have to seek that out, very intentionally. There is no doubt that the vast majority of laptops, whether business or consumer class, come equipped with webcams. And that was even pre-pandemic before all the working world started having cyber-meetings.

But, it does mean a quick look at the spec sheet for any model you don't routinely buy is a very good idea indeed.

but but but he has that big store wouldn't he just go to the laptop with webcams aisle and not the without webcams aisle...

 

[Metanis]

For fun I just tried Newegg's Power Search to find a Refurbished machine marked as Windows 11 Ready.

There were none available!

Windows 11 is going to make it tough on these refurbishers as their current crop of machines lose considerable value due to their inability to upgrade to the newest Microsoft OS. On the flip side, their value for Linux machines should be enhanced considerably.

 

[sapphirescales]

@nlinecomputers @YeOldeStonecat @britechguy Most business class laptops DO come with webcams, but it's always something I have to check because at least 20% of the time when I check they don't. Many businesses don't need or want webcams on their laptops, not only due to the additional expense, but for security reasons as well. Think banks, governments, paranoid corporate offices, etc. Hopefully now with Windows 11's webcam requirement ALL business class laptops will come with a webcam with a hardware switch being an optional feature instead of the webcam itself being an optional feature. Either that or you can always disable the webcam in the BIOS even on current models. Every now and then I forget to check if they have webcams when I order business class laptops and I'm like "son of a b*tch!"

But, it does mean a quick look at the spec sheet for any model you don't routinely buy is a very good idea indeed.

Pretty much every business class model can be ordered without a webcam. I've bought many, many 5510's and many more older models like 5550's and you gotta check every goddamned time because if you don't, sure as heck you'll get ones without webcams. It's not just Dell. Lenovo and HP also sell business class laptops without webcams. It's the same model whether it has a webcam or not, just like it's the same model whether you have a 1366x768px panel or a 1080p panel.

A lot of stuff we take for granted nowadays like 1080p, backlit keyboards, webcams, card readers, etc. aren't standard on business class laptops so if you want those features you better check to make sure the ones you're buying have that stuff. I sell mostly business class laptops and even I forget that this stuff still isn't standard. In a pinch I picked up a brand new Dell Latitude from Microcenter a few months back because my client needed something NOW and I didn't have anything 10th gen in stock. When I got it back to my home office to set it up I realized that it didn't have a webcam. DOH! I called the client to ask if they needed one and they were like "uhhh...of course." I convinced them to go with a 7th gen I had in stock instead that actually had a webcam and returned the POS to Microcenter.

 

[britechguy]

Pretty much every business class model can be ordered without a webcam.

[Added emphasis on "can" is mine.]

You're making my point. One generally has to go out of ones way to do a special "delete cam" order to get one of these. They are seldom, very seldom, the default in any laptop available today. Note well that I didn't say never.

But there is no denying that a webcam free laptop is the real exception these days, regardless of how cheap, even.