[REQUEST] 2-in-1 tablets for a doctor's office

[Kirby]

I have a client that has used Fujitsu in the past, but I hate selling that brand. The drivers are weird, giving random errors after a year or two. But it's looking like that's what I'll have to go with again.

Does anyone else have a doctor's office using 2-in-1 tablets? If so, what do you like? What do they like? Is there any "must see" product out there that all the cool doctors are using?

Note that anything I can consider (per the customer) MUST have removable batteries and bare-battery charging stations. This is absolutely non-negotiable, no exceptions, it doesn't matter if the battery lasts a week with constant use.

They should also be fast as possible in the price range, don't need a pen, but do need touch screen, lay-flat screens so they can use them as tablets, at least a 500GB SSD (if it has an SSD) and preferably be readily available for at least a year. They stagger the purchases over the year and want to get the same thing for the second purchase. They also need 3 year warranties and 3 year accidental damage warranties (optional purchase is okay, but must be available). They should come in, my cost, right around the $1,000 range or so (within about 20%, pre-warranty options). Something with a decent profit margin would also be nice, but that is literally the LAST thing I consider. Happy customer first, happy me if there's any way to make both happen. Thanks.

 

[sapphirescales]

I have a client that has used Fujitsu in the past, but I hate selling that brand. The drivers are weird, giving random errors after a year or two. But it's looking like that's what I'll have to go with again.

Does anyone else have a doctor's office using 2-in-1 tablets? If so, what do you like? What do they like? Is there any "must see" product out there that all the cool doctors are using?

Note that anything I can consider (per the customer) MUST have removable batteries and bare-battery charging stations. This is absolutely non-negotiable, no exceptions, it doesn't matter if the battery lasts a week with constant use.

They should also be fast as possible in the price range, don't need a pen, but do need touch screen, lay-flat screens so they can use them as tablets, at least a 500GB SSD (if it has an SSD) and preferably be readily available for at least a year. They stagger the purchases over the year and want to get the same thing for the second purchase. They also need 3 year warranties and 3 year accidental damage warranties (optional purchase is okay, but must be available). They should come in, my cost, right around the $1,000 range or so (within about 20%, pre-warranty options). Something with a decent profit margin would also be nice, but that is literally the LAST thing I consider. Happy customer first, happy me if there's any way to make both happen. Thanks.

New? Your options are non-existent. I would set them up with refurbs if they absolutely required a removable battery and I'll sell them a warranty myself. They'd end up paying out the a$$ for old equipment as I'd be on the hook for any repairs. One of the older Lenovo Yoga series business class models would be what I would go with.

 

[nerd2u]

So they want caviar on a spam budget.

Have you looked at a regular laptop with half decent specs your talking close to a grand.

Start tossing in things like touch screens and removable dockable batteries and the cost goes up and up.

I would never guarantee any customer that something I sell them will be available in a year. You want to be cheap and spread out your purchasing that's on you.

May be time to sit them down and have a realistic conversation with them about their budget and expectations.

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[nerd2u]

Also you will find yourself out of business right quick if you are selling things with no profit margins to make cheap customers happy.

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[Computer Bloke]

One of our fundamental rules is that the client is allowed to dictate either the specification or the price, but not both.

Something with a decent profit margin would also be nice, but that is literally the LAST thing I consider.

Can you see where you might be going wrong with this?

 

[sapphirescales]

One of our fundamental rules is that the client is allowed to dictate either the specification or the price, but not both.

What an enlightened philosophy. Pray tell, what do you do when your clients attempt to dictate both? I flat out tell them that unfortunately their expectations are unrealistic and they either need to reduce specs or increase the budget. Then if they try to reduce specs too much I warn them that they won't be happy with the results if they choose to move forward with that.

I then absolve myself of responsibility and make them sign a waiver saying that they are proceeding AGAINST my recommendations and that THEY will bear the consequences. By the time I show them the waiver to sign, 99% of them decide not to sign it and to increase their budget instead. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions. You'd be amazed how much most clients are willing to pay in order to NOT take responsibility for their own actions.

Some clients are like overgrown babies. You have to make it clear to them that their decisions have consequences and that they alone are responsible for their own decisions. They apparently never learned this when they were 3 like most babies and need to be taught. Some throw a tantrum and refuse to play (they choose not to go with you). If this happens, it's fine by me. Saves me the headache of being a babysitter to a baby that refuses to learn.

 

[Computer Bloke]

Pray tell, what do you do when your clients attempt to dictate both?

Pretty much what you'd do, I think, but perhaps a little less aggressively.

We're in a nice position where most of our clients aren't especially sensitive to price and they're generally very realistic about paying a fair price in order to get what they want. We're pretty good at sorting out their wants from their needs and we usually reach an acceptable compromise quite quickly - often we come in well under their original budget. Just like the OP our profit margin is the last thing we consider, but that's because we price out the right equipment and then add our profit at the end. In many cases we simply act as a buyers' agent for a flat fee, which works out nicely for everyone.

There are some professions (including ours) whose practitioners sometimes act as if their expertise in one field grants them authority in others, and medicine is certainly one of those. I suspect that this is what's going on here and politely explaining that their requirements may not be fully achievable and their budget is unrealistic could be all that's needed.

TLDR: No, you can't have a unicorn. How about a pony instead?

 

[fencepost]

You might find refurb ThinkPad Yogas of some generation for that, but new you're looking at 1200-1500 and you'll probably have to settle for something that'll do fast charging instead of external battery swaps.

If you can do without the tablet part, some of the ThinkPad T series have (had?) dual batteries with one swappable, but I'm not sure if external chargers exist. You're still not getting them for under $1k.

Also since this is a medical practice you must get laptops with Windows 10 PRO and I highly recommend a TPM, because you need to have those drives encrypted (and evidence that they are). I describe it to clients this way: Unless you're paying me monthly for backup of your laptop that contains nothing of worth I can't prove that there's no PHI on a laptop that gets stolen, but if it's securely encrypted and I can show that it is, I don't need to be able to prove that there's no PHI - I just need to be able to prove that if there is it's on an encrypted and inaccessible drive.

The easiest and cheapest way to do and show that encryption is with Bitlocker on domain-connected equipment with appropriate Group Policy.

 

[Kirby]

The LifeBook T725s they are replacing met all of those requirements at the time of purchase (multiple times over the years), so it is not an unreasonable request to get something similar in a similar price range. If I recall they were over $1,000 my cost, but less than 20% over. I'm not asking for a unicorn here. I've sold them products with these specs in this price range several times in the past. But the last time they dictated the product as recommended by someone else. This time I'm trying to find one I like better, not to mention my dealer no longer sells Fujitsu.

Looks like I'm looking at Fujitsu again, I guess. If any of you ever has doctor's offices who need 2-in-1, that's apparently the only brand you can get all of these things from. They even have optional auxiliary batteries which go in the DVD bay, if you need more life for the day. Removable batteries and a way to charge them is a must for this customer and I can tell you from experience it can be done without breaking the bank.

 

[brandonkick]

I think the thing most people have issue with here is that it's a must "on their part".

These specs are required "in their eyes". Most doctors offices in the United States do not have this needs or requirements. I've been to about four or five different doctors offices in the last few months and none used a setup like you describe. Most used traditional desktops, some used the average business class laptop... none used a tablet let alone one like your talking about.

They've pegged you into a corner with their must have specs. I'm here to tell you the list of available suppliers for such a thing is VERY short, maybe no bigger than the models your already familiar with.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Our "go-to" would be Lenovo Thinkpad Yogas...or some Yoga variant (there are quite a few). But your removable battery requirement is a show stopper there. I think that requirement would make shopping for 2-1 ultra books very difficult these days...yes lots are "built in" now. Removable batteries have become such a thing of the past I just haven't looked in a long time to know if any models still have them.

Fujitsu has a big presence in the medical industry...they've catered to a lot of big medical software houses as reseller/partners and overall that industry. I never see the brand in any industry type except medical clients.

 

[fencepost]

A couple notes regarding removable batteries and the lack thereof: some form of quick-charge is pretty common these days - the ThinkPad Yoga X380 that I mentioned in the 1200 range can charge 0-80% in an hour, so even a 15 minute connection while taking notes should make a big difference. That's on top of a battery life that could also be double-digits anyway.

For Thinkpads one thing I do (with the client's knowledge) is cap the battery charge at 80-90% and set it to not start charging unless it's 10% below that. If they're going to have it plugged in at least once during the day that's not going to make a difference in their daily use, but it should make a big difference in how long that internal battery lasts. I explain it as "Think of the battery like a balloon that gets inflated and deflated all the time. If you blow the balloon up as far as you possibly can every time you'll get a little more air out but eventually it's going to stretch or pop. If you only blow it up most of the way every time it may last for years. It's chemicals and electricity instead of air, but your laptop battery is the same way."

 

[Kirby]

Our "go-to" would be Lenovo Thinkpad Yogas...or some Yoga variant (there are quite a few). But your removable battery requirement is a show stopper there. I think that requirement would make shopping for 2-1 ultra books very difficult these days...yes lots are "built in" now. Removable batteries have become such a thing of the past I just haven't looked in a long time to know if any models still have them.

Fujitsu has a big presence in the medical industry...they've catered to a lot of big medical software houses as reseller/partners and overall that industry. I never see the brand in any industry type except medical clients.

I daydreamed about switching them to Lenovo and looked at the Yoga. But the removable battery with external chargers is a must-have for them.

I thank all of you for all of the advice, but telling the customer what they want instead of listening to what they want is just bad advice. Maybe you do have a better solution for them, but it would be arrogant to believe that with any surety because you don't know their business like I do and I don't know it like they do. What they "want" is the same things they "use". They don't just have spare batteries sitting around to play hockey with using a mop handle on slow days. They use them. All of this "don't listen to what they want, tell them what they want" advice is about as useful as telling me to get them a really big abacus for their computing needs and then sell them lots of training.

So, back to the beginning the response I'm getting seems to be:
"No, there is no solution other than Fujitsu which meets your customer's needs. However you may want to look into some other, more mainstream options and perhaps sell them one of those out of the 10 computers they are ready to purchase to see if it meets their needs. Or, better still, schedule a time with the client to get a walk-through and demonstration of how they use their existing equipment so that you are informed enough about their business to offer possible alternative technology solutions which you can discuss with the client after learning enough about the product to be able to answer all of their questions".
Thank you. Exactly what I needed to know. Actually, I think I might do that second one. Thanks guys! That actually helped. Not sarcasm. Responding to all of this actually gave me a great idea, which I wouldn't have had if it weren't for you guys. Man, you guys are the best!

 

[fencepost]

I'm actually curious which Fujitsu you're thinking about for them. I'm not familiar with their lineup and without digging too much I didn't see anything that indicated replaceable batteries on any of the listings on their site. I think the most promising might be the Stylistic Q738 if it also has a supplemental battery in the keyboard base and you can purchase additional keyboard bases.

I'll admit that I'm a little burned out on Fujitsus based on a client that still has a bunch of underpowered Fujitsu tablets that were never certified to go to Windows 10 (was able to do it, but had to disable the touchscreen in Device Manager to prevent frequent ghost touches) but which needed drive encryption.

Edit: ah, never mind, I see the external battery charger accessory for the Lifebook P728

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I thank all of you for all of the advice, but telling the customer what they want instead of listening to what they want is just bad advice. Maybe you do have a better solution for them, but it would be arrogant to believe that with any surety because you don't know their business like I do and I don't know it like they do. What they "want" is the same things they "use". They don't just have spare batteries sitting around to play hockey with using a mop handle on slow days. They use them. All of this "don't listen to what they want, tell them what they want" advice is about as useful as telling me to get them a really big abacus for their computing needs and then sell them lots of training.

I think of lot of us that have been in the trenches for a few decades will disagree there. We call it "Putting on our "consulting hat"..and consulting the client.

Flip things around...do you go to the doctors office and demand what's good for you? Or...do you listen to some of your doctors advice and give it some thought? Do you design a house yourself? Or listen to the architect when they say some things just aren't practical? Do you demand things from the HVAC guy are aren't possible at some price point? Or take heed to their advice for "Well..this works better ...and will save you money in the long run".

We (supposed to) know our field/products/services. Sometimes letting a client know what is unrealistic...or not the best option...is (should be) part of our job. Right now I'm at a health care client with about 35 laptops in their fleet. Been doing their IT for over 20 years. Over a decade ago...yeah with those monster laptops, they had removable batteries and a drawer full of spares. But these days...with their ultra-book laptops that the nurses LOVE due to slim and very light weight and batteries that last over 10 hours of full run...there is no drawback to not having piles of batteries around to play hockey with. Battery quality has evolved and improved in recent years.

Just food for thought. 'course...they'll keep you on a long hunt for a unicorn.

 

[Kirby]

I think of lot of us that have been in the trenches for a few decades will disagree there. We call it "Putting on our "consulting hat"..and consulting the client.

Flip things around...do you go to the doctors office and demand what's good for you? Or...do you listen to some of your doctors advice and give it some thought? Do you design a house yourself? Or listen to the architect when they say some things just aren't practical? Do you demand things from the HVAC guy are aren't possible at some price point? Or take heed to their advice for "Well..this works better ...and will save you money in the long run".

We (supposed to) know our field/products/services. Sometimes letting a client know what is unrealistic...or not the best option...is (should be) part of our job. Right now I'm at a health care client with about 35 laptops in their fleet. Been doing their IT for over 20 years. Over a decade ago...yeah with those monster laptops, they had removable batteries and a drawer full of spares. But these days...with their ultra-book laptops that the nurses LOVE due to slim and very light weight and batteries that last over 10 hours of full run...there is no drawback to not having piles of batteries around to play hockey with. Battery quality has evolved and improved in recent years.

Just food for thought. 'course...they'll keep you on a long hunt for a unicorn.

That's being a little facetious. Anyone and everyone I hire works for me. At my last doctor's visit he recommended surgery. I said no. He said "Okay". That's how it works. He gives me advice, he does not tell me what I'm getting. I have no problem giving my customer advice. But I will not "sell them" something they are not asking for unless they change what they are asking for. That's why I have that walk-through scheduled for Thursday morning, tentatively.

And this isn't a hunt for a unicorn. You might have missed that I have been providing computers for them which have met ALL of those conditions for about 7 years now. I was looking for an alternative to Fujitsu (note, "I" was looking for the alternative, not the customer). I can get Fujitsu to meet all of those requirements, no problem. I just don't like them. But in the end I'm not selling the computers to me.

I understand that what you do works well for you and your customers and that's great. But your doctor's office is not this doctor's office. You know the needs of your customers, not mine. And while your solution MAY meet the needs of my customers there is no way whatsoever you can be certain about that when even I'm not certain and I've been selling them these systems for nearly a decade now.

Bottom line, the request wasn't unreasonable because I have met every one of those requirements in multiple purchases over 7 years now already. I was looking for an alternative to Fujitsu which met all the same requirements. It doesn't exist, which is the answer I should have gotten, not "Based on zero knowledge of your customer's needs or computer usage you should absolutely, without doubt sell them X and tell them it's better". I'm not Microsoft here. I don't tell customers what they want, I advise them and then do what I'm told, if I can possibly do it with a quality product and clear conscience.

Which reminds me of my favorite Windows Vista satire, which I came up with myself (to be fair, it was more a logical conclusion based on observation than satirical genius). When customers told Microsoft that they didn't like Windows Vista Microsoft's response was, "Yes you do. It's better."

I realize there are times when the customer's request is unreasonable. I lost my biggest client because I refused to keep their old XP systems running and cobble together old junk so the lady could avoid moving out of 1986 when the 2 DOS programs she wrote using BASIC felt like a major accomplishment. She wanted those DOS programs to keep working another 30 years and could not understand why things had to change. When I finally got her to change she was so infuriated that everything was different and her 20+ year old accounting software wouldn't install that she dropped me, and good riddance. I understand that there are times when meeting a customer's demands is actually bad for the customer. Removable batteries, that's not one of those requests.

I'm actually curious which Fujitsu you're thinking about for them. I'm not familiar with their lineup and without digging too much I didn't see anything that indicated replaceable batteries on any of the listings on their site. I think the most promising might be the Stylistic Q738 if it also has a supplemental battery in the keyboard base and you can purchase additional keyboard bases.

I'll admit that I'm a little burned out on Fujitsus based on a client that still has a bunch of underpowered Fujitsu tablets that were never certified to go to Windows 10 (was able to do it, but had to disable the touchscreen in Device Manager to prevent frequent ghost touches) but which needed drive encryption.

Edit: ah, never mind, I see the external battery charger accessory for the Lifebook P728

I hate Fujitsu so much. Slow, clunky, weird driver errors popping up out of the blue without warning or apparent fix, ugly. I'm hoping after Thursday's walk-through I will know enough about their needs and usage to be able to confidently recommend some Yoga model, or pretty much anything Lenovo. I just have to learn exactly what their needs are and why to be able to make an intelligent, informed recommendation, IF I think a product will work at least as well for them.

At least I don't have to worry about drive encryption. They have software which connects to a server and no patient information is allowed to go directly on the laptop ever.

 

[Kirby]

Despite my earlier rant it would seem that Fujitsu have identified a vertical market for their specific kit. It may not be the bestest solution out there, but if it fufills the clients needs at a reasonable cost, it may well be the the "best" for them.

I'll find out when I do the walk-through later this week and talk to them about their needs. LifeBooks will technically meet all of those needs, but I'm hoping Lenovo will be a better fit when I better understand their needs.

When I first sold these I was told, "We are getting these. If you can match the CDW price we'll get them from you." Now I've built a trust with the client and, if I am certain that something else will work well for them, it will be an easy sell to tell them that another, similarly priced, perhaps a little cheaper product may better meet their needs and they don't need the thousands of dollars in extra battery and charging station purchases. I would absolutely love to move them into the 21st century with a better brand name, one that I actually like. But ONLY if it will not create frustration for the customer.

What I would really like is inductive charging with stations at all the desks and in the exam rooms where they just set the laptop on the pad and it charges. Fencepost mentioned capping battery charge and not charging unless it's below 10%, which sounds like an awesome idea, but I don't think that will work in this case. Since they move around a lot the charge would be going from like 9-12% all the time. It gets down to 9%, it get set on the pad and starts charging, it gets taken off the pad at 12% and then won't start charging again until it's down to 10%. It's too low because they don't have a clear cut "use/charge" cycle that way. It's more a "get a charge when you can" sort of situation. With no removable battery and specific laptops assigned to one doctor's sole use I don't see this working well.

 

[fencepost]

At least I don't have to worry about drive encryption. They have sofitware which connects to a server and no patient information is allowed to go directly on the laptop ever.

You're not encrypting because there's patient information on the systems. You're encrypting because if one goes walking you cannot prove that there is not patient data on the systems (unless you're doing and charging for nightly backups on what are effectively terminals).

My client with those Fujitsu tablets is using Intergy via Remote Desktop to Greenway's hosting, there's not jack on those tablets because most of them only have 32-64GB drives and there's no room. PHI or no PHI, being able to say "All hard drives are encrypted" checks some boxes for their risk assessment and makes them happy.

Fencepost mentioned capping battery charge and not charging unless it's below 10%,

Nonono, cap at 85%, but don't start charging unless it's below 75% - 10% below the cap, not 10% absolute. Ideally you want them plugged in overnight and at lunchtime or when the doc takes a few minutes to sit at their desk and update patient notes. The goal is to keep the charge between 35-85%. Going all the way to empty adds wear to the battery just like going all the way to 100%. Maybe the doc goes from 8-1 and from 85% to 50%. If they then take 15 minutes for a quick lunch break with the laptop plugged in they'll probably jump from 50% back up to 75% and be just fine for the rest of the day even if it's a late office hours day and they see patients until 6-7.

Side note: Always remember that Windows 10 really likes to set wifi adapters to "Medium Power Saving" on battery. In my experience this will tank your connectivity - I've seen packet losses when 15 feet away from the access point with nothing but clear air, and god help you if it's a good-sized office.

 

[nerd2u]

Probably not the best link but this says the product you are referring to is almost 2 grand.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Fujitsu-...-Intel-Core-i5-i5-5200U-Dual-core-2-/43951151

If your finding and selling it for under a grand I'd love to know.

You may want to look at Dell. They have a tablet hybrid with a docking station. This would allow them to take it between rooms and dock it which would charge it and allow for an external monitor and keyboard and mouse.

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[fencepost]

@nerd2u that's the old model and probably a ghost listing. CDW lists the low-end (i5-8250, 8GB/256GB SSD) for $1159, Provantage is $70 below that and either may be lower if you have a purchasing agreement with them.