"Worthless **** but worth a lot" how would you guys proceed?

[Thedog]

So okey, this is one of the strings cases Ive seen so far! I will try to explain fairly easily.

1. I have a machine that does not boot, I get no picture with either AGP-card or built in VGA-port on motherboard. I get no beep codes, just "full speed" on all fans", I suspect motherboard- or processor failure.

2. The computer is used to CNC-control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_control#CNC_arrives) a machine, don't know the english word but some kind of machine used by dentists, http://resources1.mynewsdesk.com/fi...st-mit-den-anforderungen-p36978_new_large.jpg

Now, the computer components is pretty much worthless as it has 256 mb ram, a pentium 4 processor and so on. Although, according to the client the machine has a price (or had) of almost 10 000 USD. Normally I would just recommend a new computer but in this case I think it is a bit more difficult as I suspect this one has some kind of unique configuration. As you can see in the picture it has 3 pci-cards which I am not really sure what they do but Ive got some info that one of them has the "coordinates" to control the machine, and these are maintained by the backup battery.

The computer doesn't have any cmos battery as you can see in the picture, don't know why this is. Worth nothing also is that the computer has been running windows NT. I have no idea in how to proceed here and I see two paths:

1. Any idea on how to troubleshoot further? Ive tried new graphic card, the ram is stuck under the psu so I would have to go through a lot of trouble to replacing it. I do not have any spare p4 pcu, maybe I can find somewhere... Ive looked for bad caps but haven't been able to see any.

2. Im thinking that maybe I can clone the disk, make a universal restore or something similar to a new hardware, move all pci devices and basically start where the last computer went of? Maybe some reconfiguration would have to be made in regards to what pci ports being user or similar.

All help would be appreciated! The client would really want this machine to work again as it is worth a lot to him!

 

[Thedog]

Just checked the word for the machine it controls and it is called a "milling machine", I also looked at what was found on the hard drive and:

1. Windows partition
2. A data partition which seems to be configuration for some CNC software
3. One empty 100 mb partition

 

[Knightsman]

wow...

could also be power supply. But higher chance the motherboard. What kind of motherboard? Maybe one of us can find one for you.

 

[tempusfugit]

ya the board/hd/cpu etc are all cheap, its the motion controller cards that cost anywhere from 2-10,000 a piece.

Are you sure they are PCI cards? Most cnc stuff I've seen uses ISA slots, there's a chance you could get a replacement board with ISA slots, but in my experience the CNC software refuses to play nice with anything but the original configuration.

 

[emsbronco]

Chances are it's the MB or CPU. However, being that this is a specialty system, I would do a little extra troubleshooting:
Use a POST card.
Try booting with all add-on cards removed (but document where they go and what is plugged into each connection).
Try putting a CMOS battery in and reset the CMOS via the jumper. Without a battery, it is possible that the system lost power and the CMOS hardware configuration may have been corrupted or lost.

On a side note, I have a friend that stops in every once in a while looking to see if I have any boards with ISA slots. He runs a business focused on CNC and other machines that use older controller cards like this. He gets them shipped to him, repairs them and ships them back out. A lot of the systems he works with are still running DOS.

 

[Thedog]

ya the board/hd/cpu etc are all cheap, its the motion controller cards that cost anywhere from 2-10,000 a piece.

Are you sure they are PCI cards? Most cnc stuff I've seen uses ISA slots, there's a chance you could get a replacement board with ISA slots, but in my experience the CNC software refuses to play nice with anything but the original configuration.

I think it is PCI slots judging by this picture:
http://www.cpucare.com/images/Parts/pci-isa Slots.jpg

It has no slots that looks like ISA. Attached is info about the connectors (sticker on the chassi)...

Suppose I will use a post card (got one but pretty much never been any use to me), will also try the cmos trick... another thing that really bugs me is the damm labeling of stuff in the hardware world, why can't you put some user friendly text/sticker on the actual motherboard to tell what motherboard it is? Why cant you write in big text "SOCKET 478" close to the socket and similar, it is really engineers doing these stuff and not people that can think about users to be honest.

 

[phaZed]

Hey, for what it's worth I built my own CNC machine using stepper motors from scratch as a project. I used 3 independent controllers wired to the parallel port and Mach3 CNC control software. CNC stands for Computer Numeric Control.

The "Battery" you have circled in red is most likely a capacitor that is used to buffer the controller from the motors.

The "CNC Engine" is most likely the CNC command buffer and motor driver (Which is why the capacitor is hooked to it).

The 24In/16out card is going to be used for the travel limit switches, lights, safety locks, motor feedback, etc. as well as provide a discreet timing clock for the stepper control... as the system clock can be too far out of tolerance or fail if the system locks up or the CPU goes 100%... this can cause "crashes" of the milling machine (not good).

Like emsbronco suggested, I would definitely take out the PCI cards and see what happens. There is a solid chance one of the cards have gone bad, being they deal with hardwired switches and motors, real-world I/O's.

Those are PCI slots, and PCI slots are routinely used for CNC control. ISA slots are historically black or dark brown.

You can certainly try to clone the drive to a new system, but I will warn that 95/98/NT are notoriously bad at migrating to and from different hardware and usually ends up with blue screen galore, and no good way to fix it (my experience anyway)

Check out http://www.cnczone.com

Good forums there, and I learned a lot when I built my project. I'm sure the guys on there would be interested to see the pics you have.

 

[Thedog]

Hey, for what it's worth I built my own CNC machine using stepper motors from scratch as a project. I used 3 independent controllers wired to the parallel port and Mach3 CNC control software. CNC stands for Computer Numeric Control.

The "Battery" you have circled in red is most likely a capacitor that is used to buffer the controller from the motors.

The "CNC Engine" is most likely the CNC command buffer and motor driver (Which is why the capacitor is hooked to it).

The 24In/16out card is going to be used for the travel limit switches, lights, safety locks, motor feedback, etc. as well as provide a discreet timing clock for the stepper control... as the system clock can be too far out of tolerance or fail if the system locks up or the CPU goes 100%... this can cause "crashes" of the milling machine (not good).

Like emsbronco suggested, I would definitely take out the PCI cards and see what happens. There is a solid chance one of the cards have gone bad, being they deal with hardwired switches and motors, real-world I/O's.

Those are PCI slots, and PCI slots are routinely used for CNC control. ISA slots are historically black or dark brown.

You can certainly try to clone the drive to a new system, but I will warn that 95/98/NT are notoriously bad at migrating to and from different hardware and usually ends up with blue screen galore, and no good way to fix it (my experience anyway)

Check out http://www.cnczone.com

Good forums there, and I learned a lot when I built my project. I'm sure the guys on there would be interested to see the pics you have.

Thanks a lot for the info! Btw, on the picture the cards are removed from the pci-slots, they are just in the chassi being free. So what do you think about configuration, if I get a new computer with 3 pci-slots wouldn't it be possible to just reinstall the software/drivers and then maybe copy over some configuration files?

 

[phaZed]

Thanks a lot for the info! Btw, on the picture the cards are removed from the pci-slots, they are just in the chassi being free. So what do you think about configuration, if I get a new computer with 3 pci-slots wouldn't it be possible to just reinstall the software/drivers and then maybe copy over some configuration files?

It should work fine from a hardware stand point. I would just be worried about a drive clone of NT only because I have had poor results from moving NT to different hardware. If you install NT fresh, and are able to obtain or copy the drivers for the cards I can't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

If you can determine the CNC software being used, maybe you can find out if it is able to work under XP or something a bit newer... it may not be possible because the software/drivers were never updated and/or will not work correctly due to not having direct hardware control. This can be a problem with these all-in-one "kits". What brand is the CNC machine anyway?

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I'd remove all the devices on it...reseat everything...try to boot again. It's an old computer....sometimes thermal creep makes things get a bit off on them.

Does this place still have a support contract with whatever software vendor originally did this CNC setup? Judging from the age of the computer....IMO it would be a good idea to replace it..even if you fix it now...I'd suspect more problems will be coming down the road soon. Heck..look at that poorly located hard drive...mounted on the bottom of the case..no airflow on the bottom side of the hard drive...she's lived a long hot life.

 

[seedubya]

Why not just ID the board and look for an exact match on Ebay etc?