Worth investing in reballing tools?

[djyox]

I was thinking of getting a "starter set" for doing reball work. Is this worth doing it? If so, is ebay alright to get from? It looks like its just "jigs" some solder balls, and other crap they toss in to charge you more.

I haven't done this, but would like to widen my skills. So looking for any feedback.

 

[PCSupportGlasgow]

i dont think it worth it.


ok reballing is a growing market but so is the amount of backstreet operators now offering it. (well most of these cowboys will be offering reballing but only doing reflows but that a whole other thread). Thus prices will be so low it not worth doing as client will only see cowboy prices and not equate to different level of skill & doing actual reballl not reflow.


We have actually stopped offering it unless client really insists.


But it certainly will be the market of the future as every future console, laptop, and tablet will need reball repairs. lead free solder and lazy design issues are not going to go away. but again whether market price will also drop to unviable profit is a different matter.

 

[djyox]

I was thinking of it being kind of an impulse buy for the customer. like "No, you can either replace it, or we can reball it."

THen if they ask what about craigslist then you break it down about the reflow vs reball

 

[16k_zx81]

I was thinking of it being kind of an impulse buy for the customer. like "No, you can either replace it, or we can reball it."

THen if they ask what about craigslist then you break it down about the reflow vs reball

On what products, specifically?

I reckon the best thing you could do if you are thinking of getting into reballing would be to listen to those podbutz eps with that UK guy that was doing laptops. The takewaway for me was that he spent about a year and busted about 100 laptops before he got the technique perfected.

Personally I wouldnt be investing in any infrastructure for laptop repairs, as they are probably not going to be in a 'repair' price range for much longer.

If there's some other type of hardware you see that it would be worth doing, then yeah, might be worthwhile. Not sure that its as 'easy' as it looks though.

 

[Larry Sabo]

The question was asked very recently. See this thread for some comments that might be helpful.

 

[brandonkick]

I think it's very worth while, there are plenty of "fat" PS3's and XBOX 360's that are dying and are very fixable by reworking as well as a number of laptop boards that are infamous for needing reworked.

A fat PS3 (or probably any PS3) and or the xbox 360 are easily worth $100 to $150 to have reworked. A "new" PS3 might be only $50 to $100 more, BUT the older fat ones with older firmwares are much more valuable to certain people.

Advertise in the right places (game console forums) and it will be at least profitable enough to pay for the equipment (and I'm sure much more then that).


Just don't invest in junk, don't go cheap. Buy only quality products with good reputations.

 

[acesdeals]

if you are buying a kit, you must have the machine

if you are going to use a heat gun, griddle, or small ir machine then its best to move on

if you are going to fully invest in a real bga rework machine and invest your time then its worth it

many of our clients that we train spend at minimum a grand on proper tools

there is much more behind it than is on the internet

the company i work for has about 70% coming from reworking services

if you are looking for a machine, view this article

http://xmoddz.com/hot-air-vs-ir

 

[djyox]

On what products, specifically?

I reckon the best thing you could do if you are thinking of getting into reballing would be to listen to those podbutz eps with that UK guy that was doing laptops. The takewaway for me was that he spent about a year and busted about 100 laptops before he got the technique perfected.

Personally I wouldnt be investing in any infrastructure for laptop repairs, as they are probably not going to be in a 'repair' price range for much longer.

If there's some other type of hardware you see that it would be worth doing, then yeah, might be worthwhile. Not sure that its as 'easy' as it looks though.

For laptops/and console stuffs.

Good points about the laptops. We are getting to the point where repairing hardware is almost a thing of the past.


And Larry I'm going to check that thread out! Brandonkick/acesdeals, good points. I'm sure I was going to invest in junk. I don't know if there is enough work for me to get ROI on some big machine. I was looking at a little holder deal, and the jig plates (or whatever they are called.)

Also, I am very good at soldering, I actually love it, so I figured this would be somewhat close to the same thing, but maybe not? I would need to learn on some other stuffs before I started doing customers.

 

[acesdeals]

you may be mistaken, you need to buy a machine
the kit is only if you remove the chip to clean and put solder balls on it

the kits are around $80
the machines are from $600 to $20000

ROI for us was great, we now have 3 machines

 

[brandonkick]

If you have the $1000 to $1500 to invest in a decent proper starting setup, you can make money for sure.

As I've said, reworking laptop/ps3/xbox 360 motherboards are going to be a lot of your business BUT it shouldn't take very long to get your money back. Anything after is icing and you now have another great tool / service in your arsenal.

Jokers may post on craigslist about $40 reworks but their work is almost always of inferior quality and they probably wind up damaging more boards then they fix.

 

[djyox]

That would be doable for an investment.

Would anyone be willing to help me figure out what I need to get to get started? Then I would just hit up ebay/craigslist for a bulk order of busted xbox/ps3/laptops.

I'm a complete newbie, but watched a youtube video, and stayed at a holiday in lastnight... But still don't know exactly what I'm looking for.

 

[compnet]

I think it's very worth while, there are plenty of "fat" PS3's and XBOX 360's that are dying and are very fixable by reworking as well as a number of laptop boards that are infamous for needing reworked.

A fat PS3 (or probably any PS3) and or the xbox 360 are easily worth $100 to $150 to have reworked. A "new" PS3 might be only $50 to $100 more, BUT the older fat ones with older firmwares are much more valuable to certain people.

Advertise in the right places (game console forums) and it will be at least profitable enough to pay for the equipment (and I'm sure much more then that).


Just don't invest in junk, don't go cheap. Buy only quality products with good reputations.

How is an "reworked" xbox worth 150 when you can buy a new 4gb slim with warranty for 180?

Like 16k said, I have my doubts you'll get a working mobo until you figure it out and have lots of practice, and then after that they'll probably fail within a week or two until you get really good at it.

Not to mention with the 360, reballing is just fixing the symptom not the problem. There is another whole area of repair - x clamp mods, 12v fan mods, extra fans, etc to keep it from happening again. A proper repair involves tearing down the xbox, reballing the vga, rewiring fans, and getting new heatsink clips. Then you have to warranty it for a year and still come in WELL under 180 for it to even be worth it.

Honestly even though reflowing isn't the proper way to repair anything, its the only thing I would even consider when fixing consoles/toys. They are cheaper than the cheapest laptops and don't have irreplaceable data.

reflow/arctic silver/12v fan mod, 30 day warranty, 80-100 bucks.

 

[bertie40]

The second hand market is awash with cheap Xboxes.

Due to go even cheaper with the advent of the new model later this year.

Similarly Playstations.

So reballing, even simple repairs, IMHO fall below a decent return on that investment.

 

[djyox]

All good points.

But, what happens when the new xbox/ps4 have the same problems again. We have all seen that the designers/engineers of these things don't learn their lessons from the past.

With that being said, and the cheapness of xbox's and soon to be cheaper, they look like a good practice option.

Don't forget if you have successful repairs on the practice, you should be able to at least get your money back out of the repair and enough extra for a coke.

 

[Larry Sabo]

If you stick to reflows, you won't need the reball stencils, jig and expensive iron, and aren't likely to kill as many boards if you learn to carefully control your temps (never exceed 3C/sec heating up and 230C maximum). With re-balling using an under-rated iron and insufficient experience, you stand a very good chance of lifting/ripping pads off the MB or chip--an expensive proposition! If you do go for a rework machine, personally, I'd go with a Scotle product and avoid anything from ACHI (whose wiring has been known to catch fire). I'd also recommend hot air over IR, because it's more forgiving (less likely to overheat chips) and easier to learn to use.

 

[compnet]

All good points.

But, what happens when the new xbox/ps4 have the same problems again. We have all seen that the designers/engineers of these things don't learn their lessons from the past.

Oh I bet you money microsoft learned at least somewhat of a lesson. They already reduced the power consumption and heat generation, put bigger heat sinks, better ventilation, etc on the new slims.. They still have a few issues but nowhere near what the first gen "fat" 360s had.

They lost a pretty penny when the lawsuit mandated extending warranties.

And then the ps4 is almost a year off and the 720 even farther. Add on a year warranty and its at least 2 years before you see any next gen consoles in your shop.

 

[brandonkick]

The thing your all forgetting is the "value" of a first gen PS3 / 360. I don't care if the hardware is five years old. It doesn't feel as "old" as the PS2 did when it was five or six years old (which the ps2 didn't feel as "old" as the PS1 did when it was five years old).

There was still plenty of a market for the PS2 long after the PS3 came out.

But getting back to my point. The value in first gen ps3/360 consoles.

These consoles have great value to "modders". People who install aftermarket products into the unit. You have two classifications of these people:

People looking to buy hardware to start out into this scene

OR

People who already have modified hardware that has failed

EITHER of those groups would be more then willing to pay the cost of up to an entirely new machine if not MORE simply because the new machines cannot do what the older one was able to do. The consoles security has evolved to a place where the older methods no longer work.

It's worth the $1000. You can get that back in as few as five jobs if not a few more. A quality rework is worth the cash to those who know what value they have in their hardware.


As far as actually fixing the other problems. Well those are upsells, and as everyone on here says... the upsells are where you make your money.

 

[djyox]

Isn't reflow just putting a bandaid on the problem, where as, reball is fixing the issue of the lead-free solder? Sure it doesn't fix the cooling issues.

Maybe reflow is where I should cut the line... I am wondering what the startup costs will be all in to learn how to reball. Because again, we haven't talked much about the laptops. Ones where people are basically throwing them away. Unless you bill yourself the same labor price as your customers, those will become more of a profit rather than just stripping it down to parts, and could then become a cheap laptop for someone to upgrade to, and almost all profit in your pocket.


Maybe I'm way off in my thinking. But if lets say start up (not including practice items) is $1000, thats ten repairs to get ROI... more or less. Then once its paid for, and your skillset is inplace, its just waiting to make you money. AND you're more than likely going to be one of the few in the area who does this type of work. I also see a small craigslist ad campaign of reflow vs. reball to get some business flowing in.

 

[brandonkick]

AFAIK,

Reflow is simply heating the component(s) enough to get the solder balls underneath to melt and then resolidify into a solid ball. The issue is that lead free solder cracks after heating and cooling so many times and these cracks constitue a bad solder joint/connection.


Reballing (what I called reworking) is where you suck out the old solder and replace with new solder balls. Hopefully not lead free ones.

 

[djyox]

Ok, so does anyone know of a "start-up kit" or something, or even just a list of items to get?

A bonus would be where to get them!

I'm ready to price this stuff out and get an idea of what taking the plunge will cost.