"Workgroup" and Windows 10/11

[britechguy]

I know I am not wrong in remembering that the Workgroup as defined prior to Windows 10 was removed from Windows 10, but it's clear that vestiges of it remain.

If I open Windows 10 settings, and search on Workgroup, two options appear:
1. Change workgroup name.
2. Show which workgroup this computer is on.

The former opens up the classic control panel item that lets you tweak workgroup, that's for certain.

The main reason I'm asking about this is a potential new client is telling me that they want to set up file sharing on their LAN between their computers, and that two older ones that are on a workgroup already do. There is also a NAS involved.

But I thought that Windows 10 effectively did not use the workgroup at all anymore. There are many here who do a lot more networking and file sharing work than I do, so I thought I'd ask.

 

[Sky-Knight]

Windows 10 no longer uses HomeGroup, that mess was all removed.

The ancient "workgroup" authentication methods remain. And they suck, because they have the same problems they had with Windows NT 4.0... you have to manually synchronize logins on all the machines for other machines to use.

The only situation I still support that does this is Quickbooks, and for that I create a user on the machine hosting quickbooks that has appropriate permissions to the file share that houses the QB files.

That way if another user needs access, they can do \\machine\quickbooks and login with username quickbooks password quickbooks and get that working.

Which is terrifyingly insecure, but that's what you've got. The only other choice is again manual synchronization of all user logins on all machines. Or at very least the one or two machines actually hosting assets.

You can ignore the workgroup field entirely, because it's vestigial at this point. SMB authentication doesn't care about it. And the network browser that used to organize itself by it is all but nonfunctional in such conditions anyway. And also has been as such for decades.

A much better solution is to use Teams to configure a Sharepoint repo, and have each user sync the appropriate library. Then every file access is logged, and the company in question doesn't need to maintain anything special on any given machine to make things work. But... sometimes you have people that refuse to join us in 2022. For those, you can still do \\server\share and login the exact same way NT4.0 made it.

 

[britechguy]

Yep, I was conflating HomeGroup and Workgroup.

I am attempting to collect more information about whether this is just an at-home office situation where they've always been sharing things in the LAN pretty loosely, or if it's a more professional arrangement.

I have no idea if they even have Teams and the last time I dealt with Sharepoint (which is now years ago) it almost drove me to drink. Things may have changed quite a bit since then, but I have no way of knowing.

My gut tells me that this is not an instance where "joining 2022" is likely to be an option, though I don't know that for certain, yet.

I've already said to the potential client that if they're seeking "wide open access" across machines to different individual user accounts that this is something I'm not prepared to do. There are legit ways to file share and there's "I'm not going to open myself, nor a client, to that can of worms" ways . . .

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

"Workgroup" was just a way to visually organize groups of computers on a network. You could always drill through network places...go up a level, across to a different workgroup, and into those computers.

But the more proper term is "peer to peer network" when setting up a bunch of workstations without a server, no domain controller.

I'm not fond of setting up these peer to peers....like Rob said above...matching all the logins across the computers....and dealing with something breaking it, and/or...possibly a Windows Home computer in the mix, etc. Yuck.

Question...client averse to 365 and sharing via Teams? Just use Teams to manage it...it handles the heavy lifting of Sharepoint behind the scenes..does all that work for hyou, makes it nice and easy! And then the data is up in the cloud, computers become disposable..no local backups to manage.

 

[britechguy]

Question...client averse to 365 and sharing via Teams?

Yet to be determined.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Yet to be determined.

If you/they choose do go that route, I'm happy to extend au gratis help in getting it set up.

 

[timeshifter]

Question...client averse to 365 and sharing via Teams? Just use Teams to manage it...it handles the heavy lifting of Sharepoint behind the scenes..does all that work for hyou, makes it nice and easy! And then the data is up in the cloud, computers become disposable..no local backups to manage.

What would be the cheapest way to accomplish this in an office with only two users?

 

[Sky-Knight]

What would be the cheapest way to accomplish this in an office with only two users?

Two seats of M365 Business Basic has all the online apps, mailbox, Teams, and Sharepoint.

Basic is $7.20 / month / user using a month to month commitment. so for a bit less than $15 / month a two person office can have Teams, hosted exchange, and centralized onedrives.

Standard is more expensive, but includes the onpremises Office apps for Windows or Mac machines. Those are $15 / user / month with the above terms. So the price effectively doubles if you want on premise apps.

@britechguy I NEVER deal with Sharepoint directly!

To configure central "file sharing", one opens the Teams app on any user's desktop, makes a Team, assigns users to it, and that's it... you're done. The team being created configures Sharepoint for you. User's want to interface with their files via the file explorer? Sure! Again in Teams, click the team, select the channel (general by default), and look at the Files tab that shows up on the right, click it, and below a new menu bar appears with a Sync button. Once that's pushed that specific team library will sync via Onedrive, and it appears in File Explorer under a skyscraper icon and the organization's name.

I know all that seems a little convoluted, but it's really not and once you see it working for the first time you'll never want to muck around with shares and permissions again! Best part is the Sharepoint storage is versioned by default, THAT is the bits of Sharepoint I do mess with. The recycle bins and past versions. But even that is only long enough to train the user to see the past versions for themselves, and then POOF they're self supporting.

 

[britechguy]

@Sky-Knight,

Thanks very much for this information.

From the potential client earlier this evening: "We use Microsoft Office 365 Business Standard supported by AppRiver. We also use QuickBooks Pro desktop, and the Adobe CC suite."

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

So you're all set....your client already has the necessary services to set up file sharing.

I encourage (very strongly) encourage clients to step up to M365 business premium due to the vast array of additional security features, added spam/malware/phishing/impersonation/malware features on top of the mail flow as well as stored files, and additional computer management features.

 

[HCHTech]

computers become disposable..no local backups to manage.

I wouldn't go that far - the risk of loss might be less, but it's never zero. Always backup.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

I wouldn't go that far - the risk of loss might be less, but it's never zero. Always backup.

When you move a client to 365....yes they can be. My desktop here...my laptop...my computer at home. I can pour gasoline on all 3 of them right now and burn them, go get 3x new computers, unbuckle, sign in, sync, BOOM, done, all my stuff is back. I have not lost a thing important to me...if I did...it was my mistake for saving that important thing in the wrong spot.

Add Dropsuite to 365 (or whatever SaaS backup you want)...and there's that added layer of redundancy of data...for dirt cheap.

Quickbooks on prem? Go to hosted, like RightNetworks....have done 2x clients recently like this...all M365bp....QB's at RightNetworks...I can do the same "gasoline on their computers" analogy for them. Yes....hosting Quickbooks costs money...but...so does paying me to watch over your local/on prem Quickbooks data, pay for a good backup service that I trust, and cover my time to monitor and manage those backups.

When done properly with 365, their files...either live in their personal OneDrive, or in Teams (Sharepoint).
If they use Google Chrome..sign in and sync..bookmarks are taken care of, as well as saved password. Or...Edge browser...Microsoft does the same thing now tied in with your Microsoft account.

I know that "some" clients have 3rd party software that needs backup....but keep an eye out with that soft, sooooo many of them are changing over to SaaS hosted themselves...so the need for "on prem" is...really dwindling. Tax software for accountants...Thomson Reuters and Intuit both offer online versions of their suites. For foundations, much of their software...like the old Gifts, or FIMS....those are all revamped as online products now, I've gotten rid of on prem servers ...or their scheduled for this year...for my foundation clients with their donation/fundraising LOB apps. Insurance agencies, main LOB apps like Applied...have gone from Applied Systems to Applied Epic..which is online. And of course the host of the SaaS takes care of those backups. Clients may say "But....they charge so much each month!". Well, I also ain't cheap to manage your on prem server each month, and to have backup of that server every day, and its electricity each month, and cost of replacing bare metal every 5 years, and...and....."

It's getting soooo nice having clients that no longer have on prem servers. I'm enjoying much less "911 calls". This morning I came into the office and was about to get going on another migration project, 2x 911 calls came in, from two of my colleagues clients...both with on prem servers...with issues.

And those far and few clients with 3rd party software in a peer to peer network...I just slap on Dattos desktop continuity backup.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

So to get back on track, use "Teams" to create the document libraries. Agreed...doing it directly through Sharepoint can be daunting until you know it. But don't bother! Just use Teams! With Teams, each "team" you create (the colored tiles)...creates its own document library in Sharepoint. And it sets the permission for you, based on who you add to that Team. Public Teams auto add everyone in the org. Private Teams...you add who is a member. Under each Team...are "Channels"..think of them like sub-Teams. They inherit membership from the Team they are under, but you can pluck out users to further narrow permissions. Each "channel" of a Team has its own document library in Sharepoint.

Below is a screenshot of my file explorer. I have over a dozen Teams in my app, but I only sync regularly used folders in file explorer.

The "blue skyscraper" icon represents the file syncs to Sharepoint. When you Sync a document library from Sharepoint, it leverages the OneDrive sync client to do the file syncing.
OneDrive itself...is your own local folders, think of it like folder redirection on a server...by default it grabs your Documents, Desktop, and Pictures..moving them from their default location of C:\Users\<username>\ and putting them under the OneDrive<nameof365tenant> folder it creates. You can add additional folders under OneDrive....I have a few in mine I use to share things externally from time to time....like my "Bucket" or "SF" or "DBB" folders you see in the screenshot.

 

[timeshifter]

For those of you following along at home.... (like me) .... I was able to mimic @YeOldeStonecat 's configuration. Went into the Teams app, created a team and some sub channels. I had configured OneDrive on the PC but didn't see the blue skyscraper in Windows Explorer. The key there was to hit Sync under the Files tab for each channel. When I did that it passed some magic info to OneDrive app and then that folder appeared under the new blue skyscraper.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

Yes, I should have mentioned that....it does not "sync" by default.
I do the "sync" in file explorer so that the old folks (like me)...who are used to File Explorer and mapped drives for computers....since it's been that way for the past 30 years.....can keep working like normal. Only young whipper snappers pick up working on the files within Teams...which I encourage you to get clients used to doing, it's more direct...you can run Word and Excel, etc..right within the Teams program, or...work on them directly with your locally installed Office apps, since they are "cloud site aware" they can Open or Save files from the Teams and OneDrive locations.

So basically 3x ways to skin that cat!

 

[Sky-Knight]

I wouldn't go that far - the risk of loss might be less, but it's never zero. Always backup.

No.. he's right!

If the user has their Onedrive's working correctly, desktop, documents, and pictures are no longer on the machine. Other folders can be added if needed.

Any local LOB apps can be shared off a central station which has those app's data structures in a Team. So those files are sync'd offsite automatically. Quickbooks is a little odd here... I have TWO folders going in Teams, one for the QB data files themselves, and another for backups. The latter is EXTREMELY user access limited. Then I setup QB on a system that sees a ton of QB use, usually the accountant on site, to do automatic backups every day. Assuming all users shutoff QB every night, you'll get versions of the master file AND the backups rotating too... all in Sharepoint... all versioned.

Do all this right, and drop in a Synology to backup the M365 Tenant and you just put everything that matters in the cloud, with a backup in the office. It's amazing, and nowhere along the way are you stuck backing up local stations. Though if you wanted to, Synology picks up that work load too. It's essentially yet another versioning engine, so the versioned Sharepoint stuff is now locally versioned on the Synology, and it can restore files without M365 being around... this includes email... ensuring data access in the event Microsoft goes away.

All you have to do is let users know the three magic folders that get backed up. They'll either keep up or they won't, and if they don't it's not your problem. I've had zero issues with this, because I tell the business owners up front where to put things. I have yet to actually have a user lose anything too!

The one case someone "lost" something the versioning of Sharepoint put it back.

Machines are cattle, not pets!

 

[britechguy]

My sincere thanks to all contributors and for all the offers of assistance. The potential client has gone with someone else, as their needs were urgent and I cannot do any on-site work until next week, at earliest, and that is only if I test negative for Covid (probably twice, as I don't want to chance giving this to anyone, client or otherwise).

 

[HCHTech]

No.. he's right!

which is then followed by:

and drop in a Synology to backup the M365 Tenant

Exactly my point. You have to have some backup in place no matter what. In your example, it is a Synology doing the M365 backup. In @YeOldeStonecat 's example, it was:

Add Dropsuite to 365 (or whatever SaaS backup you want)...

As long as you do something like these two examples, I'm fine. What I was disagreeing with in my original comment was the blanket statement that you didn't have any backups to manage. You do, it's just different -- and if you aren't doing something for backup, I still think you're doing it wrong.

Sorry to be pedantic, but we are on the internet, after - that's a requirement, isn't it?

 

[Sky-Knight]

@HCHTech No it isn't... I have many clients that don't want to pay for the Synology. And none of them have lost any data either.

Why? Because 100% of the clients that have lost anything, were saved by the version controls and recycle bins available in the cloud storage systems.

The Synology is a feel good measure... and provides a UI that mere mortals can make use of to keep an eye on things.

Use of Onedrive/Sharepoint is an order of magnitude better than local storage in all cases.

P.S. Exactly 0 of my clients use Premium, they're all Basic / Standard. The bog standard 30 days of rollback is quite useful.

 

[YeOldeStonecat]

And as part of my customization/settings for every client of mine in 365...I set their tenants retention to "Never delete".