Static vs. Desktop

[DocGreen]

Did you have anything to demonstrate your electrical knowledge? Ya, didn't think so. Eat crow westom.

Online Virginia Department of Occupational Regulation license lookup:
http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/LicenseLookup/ (Just input the license number 2710053375, OMG, there I am!)

+1 for knowing your stuff!

 

[westom]

Also, you're referencing a DC circuit... we're talking about AC wiring.

DC electricity does not go to earth but AC electricity does? Nonsense. Earth is only another electrical conductor. Static electricity does not seek earth. It seeks a path that connects a finger to charges beneath shoes. Irregardless of earth ground.

Restore the safety ground. How does that static current now get to charges beneath feet? Safety ground is simply another electrical path through the computer. The problem is not solved. Current is still passing through the motherboard. A computer crashed because a static discharge passed inside the computer.

This was never complicated or head hurting. If new, you will not understand these new concepts until after some rereads.

Same problem existed in early Apple computers. Its keyboard plastic case was not properly lined with a conductive paint. So early Apples would crash in a room of low humidity and static electric discharges. Crashing electronics is always about where current flows. Does not matter if current flows via the rack and floor linoleum tile. Or via a safety ground. Current still connects to charges beneath feet on a path through electronics. Sometimes due to insufficient care to separate chassis ground from motherboard ground. The problem remains inside the computer.

One who actually did this stuff also provided another important number to avert future crashes. Humidity must be at least 20% and should be at 40%. Posting emotional denials does not change reality. The computer crashed because a current from finger to charges beneath the feet probably passed through the computer's motherboard ground plane.

 

[carrcomp]

Is there any way you two can have this debate without it being personal?

 

[westom]

Is there any way you two can have this debate without it being personal?

Don't include me. I keep posting facts and examples - the hows and whys - of static electricity. A responsible poster who knows it is wrong would also say why it is wrong. And why provided numbers are wrong. Insulting is to deny facts, not say why, and simply call the engineer ignorant. Insult the engineer who clearly did this stuff professionally even 40 years ago.

A basic electrical concept that few understand also explains how a static discharge crashes a computer. Expect it and this poster to be attacked by same others who never ask technical questions and never provide supporting facts for their denials.

Connect a 200 watt transmitter to a long wire antenna. Touch one part of that antenna wire and feel no voltage. Touch another part to be shocked by more than 100 volts. Why do both 0 volts and 100 volts exist on two parts of the same wire? Electricians need not know these basic electrical concepts. Electricians spend years only learning code - what must connect to what. It is rare for any electrician to understand how two completely different voltages can exist on the same wire.

Static electricity crashes a computer for a same reason why 100 volts and zero volts exist simultaneously on the same wire. A simple electrical concept necessary to understand how static discharges work.

Static electricity also flows through materials that electricians consider insulators (ie Apple's plastic keyboard case). Another fact understood from basic electrical knowledge.

How did that plastic mushroom switch rated at 20,000 volts also connect a static discharge to the computer? It baffled the electricians. Since electricians are not taught and do not need to know these basic electrical concepts. Some electricians would get indignant rather than learn. Other electricians ask to learn rather then make blanket denials. Again, that is not an insult. That is what happens when some Master electricians learn of basic concepts they were never taught.

Why 100 volts and zero volts at two spots on the same wire? Same electrical concept says why a static discharge can crash a computer. Why the problem must be solved inside the machine. And why a missing safety ground is only a secondary problem.

Please address techical questions to me. I am quite happy to explain the relevant concepts without cheapshot and empty denials. We did this stuff professionally for many decades. Notice the static problem even in an original Apple computer. It says how long ago we learned how to avert static electric problems.

 

[carrcomp]

A long and naive post demonstrates no electrical knowledge. Even a kid in elementary school science knows that electricity flows without earth ground.

If I were an electrician I would have been insulted by this statement. It's gone both ways, even if you are masking your insults with "facts"

I say "facts" because I'm not an electritian. I don't know what's right and what isn't.

 

[westom]

If I were an electrician I would have been insulted by this statement.

There is no politically correct way to explain basic electrical knowledge when one openly accuses with insults and no facts.

No reason to reword something to be politically correct. This is suppose to be a technical and only techical discussion. Anyone making recommendations without basic knowledge and the 'always required technical reasons why' deserves to be chastised. I kept it tame until he posted multiple disparaging posts.

Posted long ago is how static electricity works. Where does that insult anyone? It doesn't. An adult would have addressed and replied only to those technical issues. He did not. He immediately posted empty accusations folowed by derogatory comments.

A fact about electricians (also called technicians). They are not taught how electricity works. That is not insulting. Electrician spend years learning what can and must connect to what. Most electricians have no idea that a wire can have both 100 volts and zero volts at two different locations. But that concept is relevant to how static electricity works.

No way around the science. Nobody should care if basic science facts expose one electrician as naive. He can reply with facts and numbers if he knows otherwise. He did not.

Please move on to the subject. That 100 volt and zero volts on the same wire is a basic concept completely relevant to why static electricity crashes a computer. And therefore relevant in where a defect really resides.

Safety ground is clearly a defect that must be resolved. But is irrelevant to how static electricity crashes a computer. Simply repeating the same facts that should not insult anyone.

BTW, how to find a missing receptacle or switch ground? Once that ground is restored, a static electric discharge creates more pain. A curious tool to locate human safety defects. And another technical fact that does not insult anyone.

How to separate a post based in knowledge from one without? Any layman can do this. The informed poster also says why. Posts numbers. And posts examples. I did all three multiple times. And even demonstrated professonal knowledge that goes back many decades. BTW, that is also why we engineers saw that Saddam's WMD claims were bogus. Many never learn how to do that.

Reread starting with this. All three requirements are provided. It demontrates how layman quickly separate myth based claims from hard facts.

 

[carrcomp]

You're missing the point of my post.

As a member of this community I'm asking that insults not be used on this from both sides.

The only reason I'm addressing you directly is because you claim you did not, which is a false statement.

 

[DocGreen]

DC electricity does not go to earth but AC electricity does? Nonsense. Earth is only another electrical conductor. Static electricity does not seek earth. It seeks a path that connects a finger to charges beneath shoes. Irregardless of earth ground.

Restore the safety ground. How does that static current now get to charges beneath feet? Safety ground is simply another electrical path through the computer. The problem is not solved. Current is still passing through the motherboard. A computer crashed because a static discharge passed inside the computer.

This was never complicated or head hurting. If new, you will not understand these new concepts until after some rereads.

Same problem existed in early Apple computers. Its keyboard plastic case was not properly lined with a conductive paint. So early Apples would crash in a room of low humidity and static electric discharges. Crashing electronics is always about where current flows. Does not matter if current flows via the rack and floor linoleum tile. Or via a safety ground. Current still connects to charges beneath feet on a path through electronics. Sometimes due to insufficient care to separate chassis ground from motherboard ground. The problem remains inside the computer.

One who actually did this stuff also provided another important number to avert future crashes. Humidity must be at least 20% and should be at 40%. Posting emotional denials does not change reality. The computer crashed because a current from finger to charges beneath the feet probably passed through the computer's motherboard ground plane.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about... and if you say "charges beneath the feet" one more time I'm probably going to throw my computer. I've worked as an electrician, and the person who proved you wrong is a licensed electrician... in my entire life I have never heard the term "charges beneath the feet" used... ever. I do, however, know for a fact that "earth ground" is an actual thing, which is not irrelevant no matter how many times you post about "charges beneath the feet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

 

[westom]

The only reason I'm addressing you directly is because you claim you did not, which is a false statement.

This was never an insult: Even a kid in elementary school science knows that electricity flows without earth ground.

How does current (both AC and DC) from the telco's CO flow to your telephone? Both wires must remain separated froim earth. Otherwise a phone does not work. Just another example of what was taught in elementary school science. Electricity requires two conductors - and obviously not earth ground.

Furthermore, the statement was never intended as an insult. A hard truth - also called honesty - is not insulting. No way around how electricity works. He should be embarrassed by his mistake; not insulted. Another electrician might be insulted that his peer did not even know something this fundamental.

Honest posts include the reasons why, the numbers, and examples. Another example is provided - the telephone. Telephone (AC and DC electricity) works only when current does not connect to earth. Not an insult in any form or manner.

Please stop rehashing what is clearly irrelevant. I repeatedly try to discuss the topic - not emotions or silly political correctness. The topic is static electricity and crashing computers. Do you have any relevant questions relevant to this topic and the so many examples?

 

[carrcomp]

It's completely relevant.

If you are using words and phrases that are abrasive noone wants to listen to or beleive your point of view. If noone listens, being right does nothing for you.

As an example. If someone came up to me and told me that even an elementary child knows the difference between on and off, I would not be open to you talking about binary (I know it's a little out there but stick with the main idea here)

I don't care that an elementary kid knows that a light bulb operates on a closed circuit. I don't care that I know what a ground is. What I care about is that someone who is a licenced electrician shouldn't be compared to a school child. This is only going to make the argument worse.

I'm not saying that he's being professional either .. you both should cool it a bit ... but don't sit there are pretend your words don't stink. The reason noone is coming to your aid has nothing to do with if you're right or not. ... the reason is your attitude.

 

[westom]

in my entire life I have never heard the term "charges beneath the feet" used... ever.

So electricians called for help from engineers. Electricians are not trained in how electricity works. Are not educated in triboelectric effects. These concepts are irrelevant to 60 Hz electricity.

Learn what we did to stop static electric damage to semicondiuctors. A conductive floor mat is wired to a wrist strap. So that charges on a hand are connected to charges beneath the feet. Harmlessly discharged. If that current made a connection to charges beneath feet via a semiconductor, the system might fail months later in space. Totally unacceptable. So we knew plenty about static electricity, how it causes failures, and how to avert it. Neither earth ground nor safety ground were the solution.

Eletricians do not need and rarely have such knowledge. So electricians would never hear anything about it.

Automotive engineers also had to learn this stuff. When carbon black was not used in tires, static electric discharges became a problem for some lesser designed automobiles. You probably never heard that either. So it must be wrong? No. Instead, learn about what nobody told you.

Defined is how static electricity crashes a computer. And why a receptacle safety ground does not avert that static induced crash.

 

[DocGreen]

I give up... can we just delete this thread already?

 

[westom]

If you are using words and phrases that are abrasive noone wants to listen to or beleive your point of view.

That may be true. But where I come from, most everyone would probably be abrasive - to you. Because we are honest. And waste no time being politically correct.

In this topic, one said electricity seeks earth ground. No, it does not. It may or it may not. What children learn in elementary school science demonstrates that fact. An obvious and perfect contradiction to what an electrician posted. No one needs be polite about it. Electricty (and a human body discharging) are irrelevant to earth ground. He might be embarassed by making that erronous statement. But that is also an emotion irrelevant to the topic.

If something is abrasive to you, well, that is only your assumption. Not insulting. Not intended to be insulting. And irrelevant to the discussion. The topic is static electricity and a computer. Please contribute or ask about the topic. Even a static electric discharge should not cause emotions (even if painful).

 

[phaZed]

carrcomp - Request granted, nothing personal here, I just can't stand idle while someone is "educating" others with little more than here-say, and this isn't the first time. I let it slide on his other misguided "electrical" posts.

westom,
There is clearly no debating with you as you must be right, even though you do not post external references to your theories, or qualifications for yourself. You insist that you are somehow more informed than the internet, the IBEW, NEC, NECA, NJATC, NFPA, or a licensed electrician, and know something that the human collective does not. You have quite the nerve to proclaim you know what electricians are taught or not taught, and that I should be embarrassed, or that other electricians would be insulted by me.

What I find interesting, and what initially prompted my major response, is that you have been a member of this board since November 2010 and only have 29 posts. While that is not a bad thing, I find it quite troublesome that all but one (Your introduction) of those posts are literally in response to only "electrical issues" in which you are again largely incorrect in virtually each case.
Let's take a look at your posts from here:
Westom's Technibble Post listings

All 8 topics westom is involved in (minus his intro):

Static vs. Desktop
Freezing & Bootmgr Corrupt. The system cannot Boot (excerpt from westom's one post: "...That type of Asus message is common to defective voltages...")
PSUs and surge protectors
Customer's power issues
No, I don't think a surge protector would have mattered in this case.
PC Frequent HDD Failures (excerpt from westom's one post: "You did not post voltage numbers with the supply under load...")
phone noise from modem (excerpt from westom's one post: "One anomaly that can explain it is a high impedance short to earth.")
PC's PSU ruining powerline ethernet

Hmm. This forum is for computer repair business owners or those that are aspiring computer technicians. Why is it that you, for almost 2-1/2 years, have been unwilling to contribute to the main premise of this forum? Do you have, or are you pursuing a career in the computer IT industry? If not, I would respectfully request your membership be under review - as would a newly joined end-user.

Honest posts include the reasons why, the numbers, and examples.

Let's not forget to post some references so we don't simply have to take your word for it, as I have done with my posts.

I was taught about the Triboelectric effect, thank you very much. Greek for "rubbing", it is the source of most static electricity.. whoopty doo. Simply throwing out a big word in substitution of "static electricity" to further your case is insulting. Wikipedia: Triboelectric effect

Carbon black was initially used in tires to "keep it together" and during the manufacturing process. Natural white rubber was not very useful by itself in the early 1900's as it would literally shred apart under the load and forces experienced in a tire. In the 60's and 70's when more economical tires were introduced and manufactured with silica (an insulator) it was found that static electricity was a problem. While the gas mileage was better and the tires lasted for more miles, the side effect was a static charge would build up from the passing air and would not dissipate to earth because of the poor conductivity of the silica. So, you see, they didn't add carbon black to fix static charge, they took it out and found that static was a problem. Here, you can READ ABOUT IT.

Connect a 200 watt transmitter to a long wire antenna. Touch one part of that antenna wire and feel no voltage. Touch another part to be shocked by more than 100 volts. Why do both 0 volts and 100 volts exist on two parts of the same wire? Electricians need not know these basic electrical concepts. Electricians spend years only learning code - what must connect to what. It is rare for any electrician to understand how two completely different voltages can exist on the same wire.

If an electrician doesn't know the answer to this it is because they are what we call in the industry, a "ratball" electrician. The answer is easy, westom, for a real electrician. The waveform that the transmitter is emitting has a physical size, let's say 1 meter. The RF sine-wave can literally be measured, top to bottom, with a wooden meter-stick if you could see it. The signal is emitted from the antenna as a sine wave, with the Top and bottom of the wave being the most powerful, and the "middle" of the wave is 0. If you were to touch the antenna where the "middle of the wave" is being emitted you will not be shocked. Electronics theory 101 buddy. I don't know what country you are from, or how your workforce is trained, but here in the US it must be quite a bit more substantial.

Here, want another fact? The best antenna to use is one that is physically half of the size of the emitted wave.

In this topic, one said electricity seeks earth ground. No, it does not.

I'll tell you what westom, go into your electrical panel or breaker box and stand on a 10Kv insulating hot-work rubber mat. Grab the ground bar that the ground rod is connected to (not the neutral bus) with one hand, and then touch a hot wire on any of the breakers with the other hand. After you do that, and get shocked across your heart and chest and die, you can come back and tell me electricity isn't seeking ground. I have lost friends, fellow electricians, because of this situation. Your advise on this forum is ill-advised, not of best-practice, and is borderline dangerous - for equipment and personnel.

I'm done.

 

[westom]

carrcomp So, you see, they didn't add carbon black to fix static charge, they took it out and found that static was a problem.

a) Conclusion contrary to what I posted. I never said they added carbon black to fix static charges. You assume that. But I did say that when tires used less or no carbon black, then static electricity caused problems in cars with lesser designed electrical systems. I then made the point. Just because an electrician was not told that does not mean the problem did not exist. Apparently you missed the point of that example.

b) I also do not waste time posting about things that are common knowledge. Often confronting popular urban myths that exist only on hearsay. Those with less knowledge just know it is wrong because so many believe the myth. Saddam's WMDs were a perfect example.

c) How static electricity crashes a computer (and other complications) is rarely understood. Many posted solutions demonstrated insufficient knowledge of the problem. And now get angry because the concepts contradict popular urban myths such as the earth ground. Static electric discharges are grasped by following its current path - ie from a hand to charges beneath the feet. And by learning why different voltages can exist along a copper wire or throughout the large copper plate inside a motherboard. National Semiconductor application notes were a superb source of that knowledge.

We confirmed these solutions by installing anti-static mats underneath feet and connected to what discharges a workers finger. Materials assumed to be insulators are also good electrical conductors. One example is linoleum tile. Experience obtained over the decades by doing this stuff.

d) How to find a PC that can be compromised by static electric discharges: First get a pair of leather slipper. The PC is best on a glass table (because other assumed insulators can be too electrically conductive; undermine the experiment). With a PC running, static discharge to various parts of its case. That current will flow from the hand, across the machine, to its power cord. And cross other materials to connect to charges created beneath the feet by leather slippers.

Expand the experiment by connecting a jumper from various parts of the machine to the floor that feet are standing on.

A computer improperly constructed will crash on at least one discharge to one corner, switch, keyboard, etc. Crash as in a computer appears to be on but will not respond to a keystroke, mouse, etc. Only a properly constructed machine will operate unfazed after each discharge.

Once a defect is found by tracing how current travels inside, well, some previous examples demonstrated how to eliminate it. Other 'still not discussed' knowledge might be necessary (or learned in the experiment).

e) This time of year in a room without humidity is perfect for such experiments. Based upon concepts previously discussed, experimentation will eventually uncover assembly practices creating a computer that is static sensitive.

f) Once a computer is made robust, then further 'cure' a static problem by increasing room humidity. BTW, ignore those anti-static sprays as useless. Unless you want to learn as we did - the hard way.

g) So you learned about half wave antennas. Point remains unchallenged, unchanged, or ignored. Electricians typically have no wave theory training. Basics that are required to know how electricity works. Also explains why many electricians could not understand or solve static electric discharge problems. And why some foolishly tried a UPS or grounding to eliminate it.

 

[DocGreen]

phaZed... it's pointless. He doesn't seem to understand what you're saying any more than I can figure out WTF he's talking about. The guy seriously just referenced Saddam Hussein and WMD's in a post about static electricity.

 

[phaZed]

Ya DocGreen, I'm finished saying what I had to say - It was a culmination of his previous posts, then this.. I held my tongue long enough, spoke out, and feel much better, lol

 

[AlaDes]

Without taking sides as to who is right or wrong, I would like to add to this heated conversation a little.

Although I am not a licensed electrician, I do know quite a bit about electricity. When I am in doubt, I consult one of my closest friends, who happens to be a master certified electrician and holds an electrical engineering degree. The disagreements in this post prompted me to ask him a few questions (well, allot), since he knows both parties views very well.

Without going into the science of it all, according to him, both of you are actually correct in your view of how electricity works. I feel that both of these men are very educated and great at what they do.

Although I feel that trying to explain things to me in a scientific manner is acceptable, to most of the members in this forum, it can be very confusing to say the least, and may even make many question your credentials. Most of us here are technicians, not engineers. Trying to explain something to us in a scientific manner would only confuse us.

 

[DocGreen]

Hey... here's a fun experiment.

Westom keep talking about "charges beneath the feet" right?

Go to Google and search for that exact phrase in quotes: "charges beneath the feet"

EVERY SINGLE SEARCH RESULT is a post by westom on multiple forums. There is not a single result that is NOT westom. What does this mean? Apparently, westom is the only person in the entire internet-connected world who knows about the elusive "charges beneath the feet" that are secretly plotting to destroy our electronics.

PS. Ya know what's beneath MY feet? The earth.

 

[AlaDes]

Doc,

You're hilarious! I've completed my assignment but found your post on technibble regarding his comment to be at the top of the search results lol.

I knew there was something I forgot to ask my friend, which was about that very thing:
"charges beneath the feet". My friend believes that he knows his stuff but lacks the knowledge of how to explain it lol.