Static vs. Desktop

DocGreen

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South Bend, IN
This to me is just weird...

In my basement, I have a baker's rack with a few different PC's stored on it. On one of the shelves is a PC that's actively running a server, along with a kbd, mouse & monitor. (The rest of the PC's are disconnected) Now, my basement is basically my man-cave... mostly because it's the only room in the house where I can smoke, lol. As any proper man-cave, it has a comfy recliner... which just happens to generate a Zeus-like amount of static electricity. Anytime I sit in the chair, I'm guaranteed to shock the crap out of myself when I get up and touch anything metal (usually the screws on the light switch cover). Lately I've noticed that anytime I get up and touch the baker's rack... the PC that's running the server becomes unresponsive and the power-indicator LED goes off. I can only get the PC to boot by removing the power cord, holding the power button for ~20 sec, re-inserting the power cord, and powering on the PC.

Now... WTF?? Shouldn't the PC case be protecting the static-sensitive components inside?? Shouldn't the case itself be immune to ESD?? I mean... I'm not touching anything inside the computer... I'm not even touching the computer itself! Just the rack that the computer's sitting on.
 
Hey doc, couple of questions.

Do you ha e carpet or carpet tiles n the bat cave?

2ndly, try some vitamin b1. Long story short, I had carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands. After the 2nd op, roughly week later started work again, put my hand in a pc to swap a blown psu, when I zapped the mobo!.

No carpet, or tiles in the workshop, it didn't matter what I touched, from metal, to plastic to skin!, I was getting myself zapped. Turned out I had this vit b1 deficiency, took the fit for a couple of weeks, and back to normal.

Pps, I supplied and installed replacement mobo foc for the client. Not their fault I was electric ;) lol.
 
Yeah, my microfiber couch does the same thing, especially if you sit on it wearing fleece and rubber soled shoes. You can easily generate enough electricity to power a small town :D

I can't think of any reason you would be experiencing issues with the PC on the baker's rack, unless something isn't grounded properly. Perhaps the ground wire has become detached from the wall outlet or something? You could probably just set the PC on a rubber mat or something to insulate it from the rack.
 
Check grounding of the battery backup unit that powers your rigs....or the surge protector, and outlet that it's plugged into.

Run a ground cable for your "bakers rack".
 
Run a ground cable for your "bakers rack".

This, and I'd probably check the integrity of the mains wiring as well. You might want to consider adding a humidifier to the room. I think one reason the PC is getting zapped is because while the chassis does offer a path to Earth ground, it's there more for EMI reasons than ESD, IME. The mains' neutral bus is connected to ground as well, so there are at least two paths to ground; the rack itself might be providing another path by its contact with the floor. You're dealing with a potential of thousands of volts, so jumping a small gap, say from the bread rack to any small opening on the case, or an external switch, isn't terribly difficult. The voltage drop is probably significant, but still, to your computer, kicking 100 kV down to 5 kV isn't enough to prevent it from having problems.

In the meantime, I'd suggest discharging any static build-up by touching another well-grounded object before touching the rack. Use a key or a coin in your hand to discharge, and you won't get zapped as bad.
 
Now... WTF?? Shouldn't the PC case be protecting the static-sensitive components inside?? Shouldn't the case itself be immune to ESD?? I mean... I'm not touching anything inside the computer... I'm not even touching the computer itself! Just the rack that the computer's sitting on.

Is any part of the metal case touching the rack ? The metal motherboard screws go into the metal standoffs and the metal standoffs go into the metal base of the case. There are more locations where ground from the case goes to the mobo, so the case aint' protectin' nothin'.
 
Electricity is going to take the path of least resistance in all scenarios. The case does provide protection from ESD because it is grounded. If an ESD hits the case, electricity is not going to travel through the motherboard to find ground, it's going to travel through the case and then to the PSU's casing and to Earth ground via your electrical outlet (Assuming you have a good outlet ground).

I think one of two things is happening here, either you have a poor outlet ground and/or there is a ground loop that is causing excess harmonics. These harmonics caused by the ESD may be misinterpreted by the PSU as a shutdown signal or internal fault, killing the power.

The other idea is that you have a cheap-o power supply, or your current PSU is become unstable/sensitive. I would change out the PSU to see if it helped.
 
I think one of two things is happening here, either you have a poor outlet ground and/or there is a ground loop that is causing excess harmonics. These harmonics caused by the ESD may be misinterpreted by the PSU as a shutdown signal or internal fault, killing the power.

But isn't he saying that it becomes unresponsive, not that the PSU shuts down ?
 
Yeah, the PSU isn't shutting down... the computer continues to have power, it just won't respond to any input and the screen is always in standby, so I can't tell what's happening there.

No carpet in the batcave... just bare concrete for now (in the middle of remodeling).

I'll check the wiring on the circuit and on the power strips in use... The wiring isn't exactly 1st class in the house, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's an issue. Grounding the rack wouldn't hurt anything either... wouldn't take but a minute to do.

As for the PSU... it's a Dell OEM. It's pretty old though... I think a Dimension 2100 or something like that? (I've got a whole stack of them)

I'll also try the vitamin theory... I do get quite a bit of static for no apparent reason. Come to think of it, we don't have any carpet upstairs either. It's all hardwood floors throughout. Might be some merit to the B1 idea!
 
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Check grounding of the battery backup unit that powers your rigs....or the surge protector, and outlet that it's plugged into.

Run a ground cable for your "bakers rack".

I'll be damned. That whole circuit has an open ground. Guess I'll be going through the house and checking all the circuits and doing some rewiring this weekend. :rolleyes:
 
Worse case of static I've experienced, was when I was working for a major financial player in the UK. Shift leader walked in to the machine room with me, and as he walked past the mainframe, there was an arc, and he actually managed to power it down. It was an IBM ES/9000. At the time we had 7,000 (unhappy) end users... err ooops... corporate users = customers! 7,000 unhappy internal customers!

ES/9000:
es9000.jpg


Andy
 
and as he walked past the mainframe, there was an arc, and he actually managed to power it down.

Must have been one hell of an arc. I mean for just walking past. Because I can't think of a documented case of a huge mainframe powering down because someone walked past it. You should have taken a picture.
 
I'll be damned. That whole circuit has an open ground. Guess I'll be going through the house and checking all the circuits and doing some rewiring this weekend. :rolleyes:

As suspected. ;)

Ground it..the surge protector and/or battery UPS should be able to pass along that ground to a real ground.

Adding a dedicated ground to a cabinet/rack is always a good idea too.
 
... as he walked past the mainframe, there was an arc, and he actually managed to power it down.
Actually suggests a wiring problem inside the IBM. Many have assumed rather than first understand some basic concepts.

Static electricity is a current from a finger to charges located beneath the feet. That is the current path. Voltage only exists if anything tries to stop that current flow.

A best test for any computer is to locate it on a glass table (because other tables are electrically conductive). Connect the chassis far end to a wire to the floor (and therefore to charges beneath shoes). Then static discharge to the chassis's near end. That charge should connect to feet on a path that does not pass through any electronics. Test is about the path that a static current flows.

If, for example, a static current enters one end of a PC motherboards's ground plane (via one standoff). And exits on the other end of that same ground plane, then current in that copper plane creates major voltages between semiconductor chips. The computer remains powered but software crashes.

Same applies to the mainframe. Any part of any mainframe can be static shocked without problem. In that case, a current was getting back to his feet via a path that went through electronics. Something is wrong inside the IBM machine.

In another event, operators would touch a big plastic shutdown switch. And crash a computer. Well, the switch was rated for 20,000 volts. More than enough to avert problems. But the switch was mounted on a plate that was epoxy painted on the inside. A best path back to shoes was through that big plastic mushroom switch and through the attached computer. Solution was internal lock washers to cut into the epoxy paint. So that a static discharge to the switch went into the chassis ground; not into the computer's ground.

That is another important concept. Chassis ground and motherboard ground are electrically different. Best way to avert static induced crashes is to have both grounds only connect at one point. Then the current has no incoming and another outgoing path via a motherboard ground.

Static discharges can find defective wiring inside a computer box. Computers must even be painted inside the plastic with an electrically conductive paint so that plastic also does not connect a static discharge into electronics. Yes, many items considered insulators (ie plastics) are actually electrical conductors.

Use static to first identify and later fix a defective computer box. Next solve the other problem. Static electric exists due to defective room air. Humidity must be at least 20%; should be 40%. Then humans do not create static electricity.

Static discharges caused him to find another defect. Once that grounding is restored, then his static discharges should be more painful. Static electric is a good testing tool to find a building's defective safety ground. Once the safety ground is fixed, then he should review defective connections inside the computer. And then fix the reason for static to exist (humidity).

Neither UPS nor surge protector is a solution or even addresses the problem. Where current is flowing inside the box is the problem and how a solution starts.
 
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While all electrical theory is just that, a theory.. your theory is quite misinformed in many areas and does not follow current knowledge or teachings. I am a licensed electrician with over 9 years of experience, and 4 years of extensive schooling. I have been building and playing with electronic analog and digital circuits for over 20 years.

Static electricity is a current from a finger to charges located beneath the feet. That is the current path. Voltage only exists if anything tries to stop that current flow.

Kinda, but not really. Static charge is built up to an object, an entire human being, or a whole computer, or an entire airplane, not "beneath the feet". Beneath the feet is not the current's discharge path, wherever contact was made between you and another object is the currents path. Current follows the path of least resistance, which is virtually never through the rubber soles of shoes.

A best test for any computer is to locate it on a glass table (because other tables are electrically conductive). Connect the chassis far end to a wire to the floor (and therefore to charges beneath shoes). Then static discharge to the chassis's near end. That charge should connect to feet on a path that does not pass through any electronics. Test is about the path that a static current flows.

With enough voltage, even glass is conductive - usually because of impurities or additives used during the manufacturing of the glass. If you want to be technical, a ceramic table or "science room" black table is better.

Electricity wants to go to earth ground all the time. Period. Not through your feet. The charge is not "connecting to your feet". Again, path of least resistance, so the charge should pass any electronics, yes, but is not traveling to your feet after it goes to your homes floor.

If, for example, a static current enters one end of a PC motherboards's ground plane (via one standoff). And exits on the other end of that same ground plane, then current in that copper plane creates major voltages between semiconductor chips. The computer remains powered but software crashes.

Wrong. The path the current would take would be THE GROUND PLANE, not the electronics indirectly connected to it. Why would the current jump through the very hard to pass electrolytic capacitor, resistors, diodes and transistors... instead of the almost zero resistance ground plane? It wouldn't. So it doesn't create "major voltage" differences between chips, the chips sink the current in an additive fashion to the static discharge as such "static discharge voltage + electronics voltage = total sink". The computer remaining powered or not and the software crashing or not has virtually nothing to do with anything, electrically. Static discharges can be misinterpreted by semiconductors as a "signal" (Think square wave), which may produce stop errors or mathematical errors, out of limits, that lock the machine. Without proper grounding, ground loops can exist within a device that resonate for many milliseconds or even longer - creating multiple false signals.

Same applies to the mainframe. Any part of any mainframe can be static shocked without problem. In that case, a current was getting back to his feet via a path that went through electronics. Something is wrong inside the IBM machine.

So which is it? The "mainframe can be static shocked without problem" or "Something is wrong inside the IBM machine"?

In another event, operators would touch a big plastic shutdown switch. And crash a computer. Well, the switch was rated for 20,000 volts. More than enough to avert problems. But the switch was mounted on a plate that was epoxy painted on the inside. A best path back to shoes was through that big plastic mushroom switch and through the attached computer. Solution was internal lock washers to cut into the epoxy paint. So that a static discharge to the switch went into the chassis ground; not into the computer's ground.

A switches voltage rating is for it's internal contacts and dissipation current/time characteristics.. not static discharge capabilities or shortfalls.
Again, with the feet. Why is it that a person that has built up a static charge can still shock a computer even while standing on a ESD rubber mat? Because the persons potential is different than that of the computer. The person is acting as a capacitor, or battery, storing energy until able to be released. It is not discharging through feet, it is discharging through the computer and off to ground.


If the switch were improperly grounded then chances are that the discharges were going to the switches input on the motherboard.. I doubt the switch was "switching" ground.

That is another important concept. Chassis ground and motherboard ground are electrically different. Best way to avert static induced crashes is to have both grounds only connect at one point. Then the current has no incoming and another outgoing path via a motherboard ground.

Motherboard ground and chassis ground are both connected to the same grounding conductor, the green wire, or earth ground of your electrical outlet. That does not require that the motherboard be isolated from the chassis, in fact, if you think so then you must know something that every computer manufacturer doesn't. Wrong concept there bud.

Static discharges can find defective wiring inside a computer box. Computers must even be painted inside the plastic with an electrically conductive paint so that plastic also does not connect a static discharge into electronics. Yes, many items considered insulators (ie plastics) are actually electrical conductors.
Survey says... WRONG.
It's not that the plastic is a conductor, it is that it IS NOT A CONDUCTOR - that is why a static charge builds up. It is a dielectric as you could find inside a capacitor. Electrical charges build up on the surface of such items. You probably did the "balloon trick" with someones hair before.. the balloon isn't conducting electricity.. it's positively charging the persons hair, and negatively charging the balloon... creating a "difference in potential".

Use static to first identify and later fix a defective computer box. Next solve the other problem. Static electric exists due to defective room air. Humidity must be at least 20%; should be 40%. Then humans do not create static electricity.
I wouldn't suggest using static electricity as a testing tool on your static sensitive computer if it can be avoided. The air is not "defective" if there is low humidity. It simply means that electricity is not able to be dissipated through the water vapor that is in the air, or that is NOT in the air. Air is a great insulator, the water vapor within is not, which is why lighting usually happens during "rain events" lol. Humans create the same amount of static electricity whether the humidity is high or low, however, with an acceptable humidity the static is discharged at a constant and fairly quick rate.

Static electric is a good testing tool to find a building's defective safety ground. Once the safety ground is fixed, then he should review defective connections inside the computer. And then fix the reason for static to exist (humidity).
Again, not a good testing tool. Why not use a ground tester that you plug into the wall.. an actual tool that actual electricians use. The reason that static electricity is not a good "tester" is because you still shock "the building" whether it is grounded or not. So how would you narrow down what outlet has a good ground? Rub your feet 20 times on a carpet square and try and discern whether or not it hurt more or less? Ridiculous!

Where current is flowing inside the box is the problem and how a solution starts.
I don't even know what to say about this statement.

Please, fellow TN'ers, disregard this misinformation. Westom, please, at least Google things you are not qualified for. Here's something to get you started:
Wikipedia: Static Electricity
Wikipedia: Electrostatics and Coulomb's Law
 
Hey Doc, once you get that open ground issues resolved, make sure that the conduit in your man-cave is grounded. If it is, take a jumper cable (or something similar) and ground your bakers rack to the conduit. Never hurts to cover yer @$$ in more than one way!
 
Electricity wants to go to earth ground all the time. Period.
A kid in elementary school science connects a battery to a light bulb. Current that enters one side of the bulb is same as a current that leaves the other side. Earth ground is nowhere in that circuit. A simple science concept is obvious. Earth ground is irrelevant. Earth ground is also irrelevant to static electricity. Obviously.

A long and naive post demonstrates no electrical knowledge. Even a kid in elementary school science knows that electricity flows without earth ground.

A current (called static electricity) left a finger to flow to charges located under the shoes. That current flowed through electronics inside an IBM computer - to crash it. Or flowed through a motherboard in the PC rack to crash that computer. That simple.

Safety ground in a receptacle is restored for human safety. Once solved, that may provide another path to shoes via the rack computer. Static shocking any computer should never crash a computer. That computer has an internal wiring mistake.

Static electricity crashed that computer because its chassis ground was improperly isolated from a motherboard ground.

Static electricity also exists because room humidity is excessively low.
 
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Please, you should stop dispensing bad information and making yourself look like a fool.

I said "Electricity WANTS to go to earth ground all the time", because it does. Your neutral line is actually grounded at the Power plant's generator, as well as a ground rod near your home. A power co's generator has three phases A, B, and C.. and a Neutral Grounded conductor (Not to be confused with a "GROUNDING" conductor). The Grounded conductor handles any imbalance between phases. Fault currents for the purpose of facilitating the operation of overcurrent protective device (Circuit Breaker for you laymen) and Ground fault detectors (GFCI - outlets you find in bathrooms and kitchens with the reset buttons) are passed through the Grounding conductor- As found in the NEC(National Electrical Code book) Section 250.101.

The US NEC also very specifically states that ground is an "Equipment Ground" and is for the "safety" of equipment and for not starting fires and causing stray voltages.. and makes damn clear that ground is NOT FOR THE SAFETY OF PEOPLE! That is the job of Ground fault Circuit Interrupters and Arc fault breakers only. Look it up, genius, before you get somebody hurt.

So, as you see, Earth ground is quite relevant because earth is by far the biggest, positively charged object in which electricity is "attracted to".
Why does electricity go to ground?

A kid in elementary school science connects a battery to a light bulb. Current that enters one side of the bulb is same as a current that leaves the other side. Earth ground is nowhere in that circuit. A simple science concept is obvious. Earth ground is irrelevant. Earth ground is also irrelevant to static electricity. Obviously.
What should be obvious is that you are talking about a DC circuit, and not an AC one. The battery has a negative and a positive terminal. The negative side has negatively charged ions and the positive side has positively charged ions. This difference in potential is measured in volts. When the chemical reaction creating the potential in the battery has stopped reacting, there is no longer any more potential (volts) and the battery is dead. If you were to hook the negative side of the battery to a ground rod (Straight to earth) you will find the battery will be dead very shortly because the negative ions in the battery will flow to the earth. You didn't know this, because who ever really hooks a battery to the ground?
You really think that earth ground is irrelevant to static electricity? Then why does lighting (static electricity) keep connecting with ground? Give me a break.
Lightning Wiki

A long and naive post demonstrates no electrical knowledge. Even a kid in elementary school science knows that electricity flows without earth ground.
Ya, and I never claimed that an earth ground was required for electricity to flow, reading comprehension is a must.

Here, how's this for demonstrating electrical knowledge? The United States of America, The State of Virginia, and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers(IBEW) seem to think I have passed multiple tests and hold a current Journeyman Electrician's license... which should be sufficient to demonstrate I know what I'm talking about.

Did you have anything to demonstrate your electrical knowledge? Ya, didn't think so. Eat crow westom.

Online Virginia Department of Occupational Regulation license lookup:
http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/LicenseLookup/ (Just input the license number 2710053375, OMG, there I am!)

Electricians-license.jpg
 
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A kid in elementary school science connects a battery to a light bulb. Current that enters one side of the bulb is same as a current that leaves the other side. Earth ground is nowhere in that circuit. A simple science concept is obvious. Earth ground is irrelevant. Earth ground is also irrelevant to static electricity. Obviously.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, you're referencing a DC circuit... we're talking about AC wiring. Your reference is irrelevant.
 
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