Opinions on time needed to complete job

[livpie]

I met with a customer today that is planning a move to a new office at the end of October. I was hoping to get some opinions on estimated time you think it would take to complete the job. The main reason I am asking is that they are using SBS 2008 and I have had limited experience in the past with a server environment. I had already decided to set up SBS at my office in order to start moving in that direction and I figure this gives me plenty of time to prepare for this job. I just want to give an estimate that will reflect how long it should take me if I were already proficient using SBS.

Here are the details:
8 computers (2 with local printers)
2 network printers
1 server running SBS2008
They are using the server as a domain controller and file share.
They are not using exchange server or anything additional I am aware of.
DSL Internet with static IP (Assume they will be transferring the same service)
External USB backup for server (Alternating drives)
DSL Modem/Router
2 - 3Com Switches

Move will start around noon on a Friday.

I will have to physically move all computers to a new office less than 5 minutes away. It will probably take me 2-3 trips.

I will be setting each computer back up.

They do not want to make any changes to their network or group permissions during the move. They just want it set up like it currently is.

You can also assume that all network outlets will be in place and just need connected at a central location in the new office.

I know I have an excellent chance at getting this job. I just want to make sure I am accurately calculating my hours in order to be fair to both them and myself. I realize I will most likely have more hours in the job, but this is a great opportunity to help me grow into new areas.

If there is any additional information you need, I will try and provide it for you. I tried to be as thorough as possible in describing the situation but realize I may have missed some things because it is unfamiliar territory.

I appreciate any advice you can give me concerning this opportunity.

Thanks!
Tom

 

[LSB]

$60/hr @ 5hrs minimum. You can do it in 5hrs easy if you are making one trip, and if the location is distraction free.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

The biggest mistakes new techs make, even older network techs who mainly maintain networks and don't set up new networks, or move same is that they forget all the little bs aggravation that comes with every job.

If I tell the owner I will do it for 5 hrs, then the cabling is screwed up, that adds hours taking from my profit. maybe I have to fix it for free and still get paid only 5 hrs. Or, the old pc and server equipment is just fine until it gets jostled in the truck of a car or truck, so now one video doesn't come up, another power supply, another nic is bad. Who pays or that? Is it stated or implied? Are you sure the customer understands that. You are taking a risk for every pc of equipment while it is in your possession are you sure you want to do that for $60 per hour? I wouldn't.

Tech's are notorious optimists and terrible businessman. This goes against you as a business man as nothing ever really works out perfectly if you give every customer your best guess of what it should take, and you are undercharging in your hourly rate to boot, your business will "be not long on this earth."

You will have to configure the router with the new static ip as a minimum. You may have to go back if the phone company didn't have it ready when you get there. That is another area where you don't want to own that responsibility as its out of your control.

Also, If any clients logon from home remote desktop now or ever in the past, then they will probably be calling you when that connection doesn't work next time they try and use it, after-all you set it up.

So you should know more about SBS and what it could entail for you. Biding this job without a needs assessment can cost you time and money.

One more thing I have seen in these situations, the one or two clients that never really worked correctly. Now you must fix them within that 5 hrs. No doubt the client expects a perfectly working network when you get done.


I would bid it this way:

Tell the client: If you are price sensitive you can save money by carefully packing each machine and moving it yourself. Plug them in and I will take it from there. I will bring them up, put them on the internet, check their physical connectivity and get them working more or less like they do now. If you have any difficulties with your network now, you may still have them unless you pay me to fix them. This could take as little as a half day at $120 per hour. If you prefer me to move the machines, I am happy to do that as well but now we have a few hours packing, moving and unpacking on top of that.

If I move the equipment it may cost as much as 2 hrs per machine, But for that we can probably include tuning the network, resolving reasonable cable issues, most issues that might arise.

Then I would allow a half day to bring them all up, see that the other issues that might come up are taken care of, and log them on, make sure they are getting their updates and all that. I would schedule each person when to call me to walk them through adjusting their remote access ip address, or have them bring their laptops in and I do it on site. I would do a test restore on the backup and advise the client of the current state of their technology when I was done.

I just picked up a new client with a 4 user SBS 2008. They brought me in for clean up of malware. The project turned into 13 hrs of cleaning up 4 the workstations (and two more laptops they forgot to tell me about until after the bid), review the server, adjust the exchange, forward the outgoing email, then added another project 9 hr customize Quickbooks to their industry and desires, and another $3000 to buy a new server, $1000 for server software and $1000 to setup, NOS software, and $3000 for new workstations.

Bid the projects correctly, then do all that is needed to do the job correctly. You will not only get this job but more when they see how well you work. Do not whistle-stop them because you gave a low bid then you are fighting to get out of there with your shirt and they feel bad about the deal and you feel bad about the deal.

Have realistic expectations.

I see businesses do this all the time. They are so cost conscience but forget that the job has to be done 110% correctly for the customer to be happy. You cannot possibly know all the facts up front so you either have to charge a very large hourly rate to absorb those unknown items, or you have to add a fudge factor in your bidding hours, or give open bid. 5 hrs at $60 per hour does neither appropriately-IMO.

 

[livpie]

Tony,

I agree with everything you said. The purpose of posting this was to get an accurate idea on the time needed to complete the job. I didn't mention my hourly rate because it should bs based on hours and bid from there. I also agree with the little things that will no doubtably will arise.
Being that I am not as versed in SBS I felt as though I could not come up with an accurate time assessment. All the information your provided is very helpful. I don't plan on underbidding the job; I plan on bidding it properly and planning it will take me additional time to figure out things I am not as familiar with. I don't think I should charge the customer for what is part of my learning curve.
I will most likely nix it with me moving the computers and if price becomes an issue I can always use that as a way to lower the price. I think that I'd a great idea.
A final couple things to note:
They told me they do no remote login.
I also asked them if they had any ongoing issues they wanted to address and they assured me everything had been working great. I know this still means I will find at least one or two issues that they probably don't consider issues.
As for the Internet, I considered assisting them in transfer of service to hopefully insure I don't run into any problems. I will definitely let them know I will do what I can but ultimately the phone company has to deliver a working DSL signal.
I had also considered going in prior to the move and doing an inventory of each computer as right now they have no network map or anything remotely close to am organized IT infrastructure.
Obviously, I was planning on charging for these things and would like to hear your feedback on presenting that to them.
I intentionally left out the wiring aspect because I will be able to do a site survey of their new office prior to the move and I can accurately bid that.
Finally, I normally charge $110/hr for small business clients. This client was referred to me by someone in my networking group who works for this company part time. I normally charge $100/hr for members on my group and would consider this that type if situation.
I am curious as to whether or not you would normally provide a bulk discount for a larger job such as this in your bid. I think the best thing I can do is try and accurately account for the time involved and then do my best to get it done on that timeframe.
I have enough business experience to address that side of things. It is just the SBS that is making me extra cautious in thus situation.

Thanks again for the input and I appreciate any other advice you may have.

Cheers!
Tom

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Hi Tom,

I hope no one took my reply as condescending. It's just that when I hear some of these stories, in my minds eye, I can see it playing out badly like it has for me years ago. So if someone can learn from my many mistakes, all the better.

I just took over a 4 user 2008 SBS server and charged 13 hrs at my full retail rate for first project-clean and stabilization. They were ecstatic and said that is the first time in 3 years they could update a contact in email global contacts.

Then I told them if they wanted a lower rate they can pay me $600 per month (2 hrs server and 1 hr each workstation) maintenance agreement, prepaid they would get my group rate of $100 per hour. If they do not pay it on the first of the month then their rate goes back to retail. They can cancel in 30 days notice if they ever want to, or adjust it up or down as needed.

They get billed in real time, all hours above the monthly 6 hrs, at $120 rate, this encourages them to want to find the right size of hours they require. However unused hours are applied towards next months 6 hrs. If after 3 months they accumulated hours each month, we adjust downward their hours but that hasn't happened. People always seem to start out with fewer hours than they really need. They also start adding projects like crazy after the network is stable.

I find that there is a great unmet demand in networking clients. Even the clients themselves do not know it. They are afraid of new technology because what they have is so poorly setup and working poorly. They just want to patch things to keep it working so they can get their jobs done in less than 50-60 hrs a week.

Almost every client I get, after I have stabilized their network, they come up with these tremendous jobs, projects and upgrades that I love and is great for my bottom line. I sometimes talk to the other companies who maintained them (Wichita is a small town) and they tell me what problems that they had with THAT client. I don't even bother telling them that the problem was that they never got them to their 'comfort zone' in technology so they wouldn't dare do something new when they are not comfortable with that they did 3 years ago.

My perspective is that too many network guys leave things undone. Perhaps they do not perceive they are a big deal but to the client every little glitch is a big deal. A totally stablized network is my best friend.

I moved directly into another 10 hour project to customize and some what automate their invoicing and statements for law office. Then document imaging is on the table after that. They have given the go ahead on a new server and new workstations plus 10 hrs for that. So this client will be large enough to pay for a small Toyota car when I get done with them and they are thanking me every time they see me.

I am not that good of a tech, but I know how to finish one job before starting another one. I know where to go to get information if I come across something that baffles me, but I always get the problems resolved, even when the client has moved on to the next project.

It sounds like your charges and hours are appropriate and the best thing you can do is say that there is no closed Quote, only an open estimate. I charge by the hour and I cannot cut my own throat as I cannot control all the contingencies. If you need a closed quote I am going to have to build in a fudge factor which you pay even if I don't need it so its in your best interest to pay by the hour and I just try to keep it to the estimate I gave you. This also allows you to modify the project as we go as we see things we want added.

SBS installed straight forward but you should just let it install all services as you can disable it pretty easily by not installing some services. It is easy to setup but a bugger to fix after it gets screwed up. Try to do as much as possible with the console and not in the individual snapins or you will have some snafus.

If your clients get little circles (timing) or time out errors, you probably need more resources. I upgraded a client from 100 nic to 1000 and the server started acting funny. Needed more resources. The slower network acted as a meter in a sense. Open the meter and the server showed its bottlenecks. In my case it was ram then hard drives but at that point it was easier to just do a new server that would last the next 3-4 years.