Linux vs Windows

[vdub12]

On the subject of turbotax you don't even need to go to wallmart. They have an online addition that works natively in Linux.

 

[gunslinger]

The guy I spoke with that used to work for Dell is a good friend of mine and fellow tech. He said the noted reason for the returns was that the customers got a discount on the systems not knowing what Linux was and when they tried to set them up nothing they had worked. They were returned for Windows boxes.


I stand buy my statements. Untill you can buy regular software from places like walmart and hardware like printers and they just work on Linux it will never be a main stream desktop OS in the US. You can talk about cell phones and servers and netbooks all you like but I have only had one customer in 11 years who was running Linux on her desktop system and she called me over to install Windows XP on it.

 

[vdub12]

The guy I spoke with that used to work for Dell is a good friend of mine and fellow tech. He said the noted reason for the returns was that the customers got a discount on the systems not knowing what Linux was and when they tried to set them up nothing they had worked. They were returned for Windows boxes.

Dell systems running Linux are not cheaper. In some cases they cost a little more. I am a little ticked at Dell for this but thats there prices. I am glad that they are at least selling systems with Linux on them. If you search the web about this subject you will find that its a rumor and has no truth behind it. Michale Dell himself runs ubuntu on his personal notebook.

I stand buy my statements. Untill you can buy regular software from places like walmart and hardware like printers and they just work on Linux it will never be a main stream desktop OS in the US. You can talk about cell phones and servers and netbooks all you like but I have only had one customer in 11 years who was running Linux on her desktop system and she called me over to install Windows XP on it.

I have never claimed that Linux is right for everyone. I have however claimed that most hardware and many software titles can run on Linux with no work at all. When I say no work at all I don't mean by me. I mean my wife could go to wallmart and buy an HP printer, come home and plug it in and start printing. The same goes for most other consumer hardware. I am talking about consumer hardware. Yes many customers might have a problem installing a new graphics card because they may need to install the drivers in the console. However, most consumers don't upgrade graphics cards they call us to do it.

Really? Ok lets test that. Go to walmart and buy some software. Lets see, how about Norton AV, Turbo Tax and Black OPS. Now, without doing any tweaking, hacking, terminal work arounds or downloading anything else, lets see you pop the Disc in your Ubuntu machine and it just work. If you can do this with a stock install of any Linux distro I'll be impressed. Hell, I just might take back everything I said about Linux...lol

I have shown that this is not only possibly but it is a reality. I think you should give Linux another chance. Honestly its in every techs best interest to learn how to work on Linux systems because they are going to get more widely used in the years to come.

 

[gunslinger]

Dell systems running Linux are not cheaper. In some cases they cost a little more. I am a little ticked at Dell for this but thats there prices. I am glad that they are at least selling systems with Linux on them. If you search the web about this subject you will find that its a rumor and has no truth behind it. Michale Dell himself runs ubuntu on his personal notebook.

They received a $99 discount for buying Dell desktops preinstalled with Ubuntu. This is fact.

I have never claimed that Linux is right for everyone. I have however claimed that most hardware and many software titles can run on Linux with no work at all. When I say no work at all I don't mean by me. I mean my wife could go to wallmart and buy an HP printer, come home and plug it in and start printing. The same goes for most other consumer hardware. I am talking about consumer hardware. Yes many customers might have a problem installing a new graphics card because they may need to install the drivers in the console. However, most consumers don't upgrade graphics cards they call us to do it.

The fact remains that Linux is still no where near as compatible software or hardware wise as Windows or OS X. If it was more people would use it.

I have shown that this is not only possibly but it is a reality. I think you should give Linux another chance. Honestly its in every techs best interest to learn how to work on Linux systems because they are going to get more widely used in the years to come.

Show me. I still want to see you install Norton, Turbotax and black ops on a box stock install of Ubuntu. No work arounds, no installing a little something else, not going online searching for something to make it work. Put the disc in and install the software and it work. If you cannot do this with popular software you can pick up from Walmart and the like you have no argument end of story.


You say Linux systems will be more widely used and you are certainly correct. Cell phones, servers, ect. But not on end user desktop systems. On those you will see a sharp jump in OS X. But for the most part it will be a windows world.

 

[vdub12]

They received a $99 discount for buying Dell desktops preinstalled with Ubuntu. This is fact.

I would like to see a reference on this because all the research I have seen says there is no discount.

The fact remains that Linux is still no where near as compatible software or hardware wise as Windows or OS X. If it was more people would use it.

I would have to disagree. I would say that Linux is more compatible with software then Windows. Can Windows run Linux software? No. Can Linux run Windows software? Yes.

Show me. I still want to see you install Norton, Turbotax and black ops on a box stock install of Ubuntu. No work arounds, no installing a little something else, not going online searching for something to make it work. Put the disc in and install the software and it work. If you cannot do this with popular software you can pick up from Walmart and the like you have no argument end of story.

Again I would have to say there is no reason to run Norton in Linux. Thats just a stupid example. If you want to buy me a copy of black ops I would be happy to load it on my Linux box. I have already showed you Turbotax in Linux. Refer to above screen shoot. For the sake of compatibility Inuit made turbotax web based so everyone can use it. This was a direct move to make turbotax available in Linux.

You say Linux systems will be more widely used and you are certainly correct. Cell phones, servers, ect. But not on end user desktop systems. On those you will see a sharp jump in OS X. But for the most part it will be a windows world.

I disagree. I give it 2 years and you will see many Linux systems in the home. Look at the Google chrome OS.

 

[angry_geek]

Gunslinger and I agree on this issue. It's not a matter of which one is better or if Linux is usable. It's a matter of whether or not Sue at the Real Estate Office can go pick up a Linux laptop or desktop and run her EZ List on it or if Bob can run his customized Excel spreadsheets.

Let's just assume for a moment that Quickbooks released a Linux version of their software. It runs beautifully on OpenSuse. Oops! Becky the bookkeeper just came into your shop and bought an Ubuntu machine from you. Quickbooks for Linux has some weird compatibility issue with Ubuntu. Now you have to tear everything down and load OpenSuse so she can use Quickbooks. Oh no! Her brand new Ricoh All-in-One has some issue with OpenSuse. And so it goes. This is no good for the consumer as it's quite difficult to tell Becky the bookkeeper how to run the terminal commands or add the repositories to fix her various issues. She's not terribly computer literate. You've completely blown your profit margin on the new machine as you've just set her up with something she can't use reliably without having you on the phone every other day. How is this a good idea?

Until there is some sort of standardization in the Linux development community, or a decision on one or two distros, no one is going to care about Linux. It's too expensive for software companies to develop for 50 different variants of the OS. It's too cumbersome for the end user. And it's the furthest thing from profitable for the local IT shops. I've tried Linux boxes for customers in the past. It's a major PITA for me, and it frustrates the customer to no end. My mother or girlfriend using it is a different story as I'm there to help them. But no one in their right mind is going to pay me $75/hour to hold their hand every time they want to add something to their pc. If all you have is someone wanting to do Facebook and Email, then give them Ubuntu. I do this on refurbished machines. However, I make them sign a document that states I will absolutely not support the software.

 

[gunslinger]

I would like to see a reference on this because all the research I have seen says there is no discount.

I'll see what I can do but it was a while back, shortly after Dell started to offer Ubuntu.

I would have to disagree. I would say that Linux is more compatible with software then Windows. Can Windows run Linux software? No. Can Linux run Windows software? Yes.

Why would Windows want to? Most of the open source software I see on Linux machines looks like crap and is cobbled together. The GIU on most of it is horrible. Besides, most of the useful software on the planet is made for Windows and OS X , not Linux. Adobe products, Final cut, most games, ect. All made for OS X and Windows not Linux. Can you run some Windows software on a Linux box? Sure, and I can run Gimp and pidgin on my Windows machine. Download it and install it. Can you do that with photo shop?

Until there is some sort of standardization in the Linux development community, or a decision on one or two distros, no one is going to care about Linux.

Exactly. But thats the problem with Linux. Everyone wants their own personal version, with its own quirks and problems. The Suse people hate the Ubuntu people and the Red hat people look down the nose at the Mint people. Then you have the puppy fans everyone hates. They can't even get along with each other. As if that was not bad enough you have their spokes person nut job extraordinaire Richard Stallman leading the madness.

 

[Ccomp5950]

Exactly. But thats the problem with Linux. Everyone wants their own personal version, with its own quirks and problems. The Suse people hate the Ubuntu people and the Red hat people look down the nose at the Mint people. Then you have the puppy fans everyone hates. They can't even get along with each other. As if that was not bad enough you have their spokes person nut job extraordinaire Richard Stallman leading the madness.

Wow. Just wow.
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[gunslinger]

Wow. Just wow.
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Don't misunderstand. I don't hate Linux. It has its place but IMO that place is not a replacement OS on the home desktop. Linux is a good idea but as with all good ideas they will not work if not implemented properly and Linux has not been. A lot like Stallman really, full of great ideas but nuttier that a fruit cake.

 

[vdub12]

You know what this is a dead thread.

I am not going to go back and forth while people just pull crap out of the air that doesn't have any factual meaning behind it and post it as fact.

BTW I use photoshop CS2 in Linux all the time. I never much cared for the gimp and photoshop was installed right off the disk without any hacking.

I think to many people still see Linux in the light it was in 10 years ago. Most people commenting here sound like they have not even seen what's currently available. The statement that the Linux GUI is horrible compared to Windows and OSX, LMFAO. That's a good one.

 

[angry_geek]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would take this personally. Some of you act as though you're defending a family member or somehow have a personal stake in the success of Linux. Can anyone here demonstrate how switching people from Windows or OSX to Linux actually benefit them? Would it help your business? (Other than taking countless calls from users not being able to do something.)

I just don't understand it. This is supposedly about the viability of Linux in the typical end user environment. Any time a counter point is made someone gets personal or says "I use it with no problem every day." Of course you don't have issues; you're a tech!

 

[vdub12]

I am not taking anything personally I am just sick of arguing non accurate facts.

 

[Ccomp5950]

It works both ways. Anytime someone says "Linux is great, I can't see why everyone isn't using it" suddenly it's like someone ****** in aunt Thelma's gravy.

Linux on the desktop is a chicken or the egg problem. Mainstream software developers won't develop for Linux while it's not the popular OS. Linux won't be the popular OS while mainstream software developers don't develop for it.

 

[NeutronTech]

I think Linux has it's place in our business. It's important for more people to use linux for it to continue catching on. Older people who do nothing but email are great candidates for Linux. They aren't buying software for the most part. They typically use online everything. Another great market is children. I know I run Linux on my kids' computers. I did it initially because I didn't want to buy licenses for them. I'm glad I did though. There are a lot of good learning games for them and they are learning right out of the gate a different OS. I still give them time on another computer we have, with Windows XP. They fluently move around both OSs with ease.

What is interesting is that when I first installed linux for them, they adjusted right away and didn't ask any "how do i" questions. The similarities between windows and linux were intuitive enough to adapt what they knew about standard GUI concepts. Children do that so easily compared to the rest of the world. Adults get so overwhelmed with the idea of change, they freeze and their brains turn to mush. If they looked at it through a childs eyes, they would be looking for similarities instead of looking for differences.

 

[gunslinger]

To start with I don't think I ever said the GUI in Linux is horrible. What I said was that most open source software I see installed on Linux had a horrible GUI. I think most would agree with me on that one also.

I would love to see photoshop installed on a fresh install of some version of Linux. No crossover, no wine, no work arounds, just a clean install of Linux and photo shop. If you can do that I'll be impressed but I don't think you can. Prove me wrong.

Last time I checked the total people running Linux on home systems was between less than 1% and 1.49%. What was it in 2000-2001? Less? More? Anyone wanna bet me that number will still be below 3% in the next 5 years? Yeah I didnt think so.

You want to talk non accurate facts? I said very few people actually run Linux at home. The actual number was 1-1.49%. I said you could not install off the rack software on Linux without tinkering or work arounds and you give me online,crossover and wine.

It works both ways. Anytime someone says "Linux is great, I can't see why everyone isn't using it" suddenly it's like someone ****** in aunt Thelma's gravy.

I think the problems and arguments come up when people try to make Linux out to be something its not. Is it good for servers? Yup its great for those. Is it good for cell phones? yup. End user desktop systems? Not so much.

For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone would take this personally. Some of you act as though you're defending a family member or somehow have a personal stake in the success of Linux. Can anyone here demonstrate how switching people from Windows or OSX to Linux actually benefit them? Would it help your business? (Other than taking countless calls from users not being able to do something.)

I just don't understand it. This is supposedly about the viability of Linux in the typical end user environment. Any time a counter point is made someone gets personal or says "I use it with no problem every day." Of course you don't have issues; you're a tech!

Very well said and very true. Can someone tell me how having my customers go to Linux would make my business easier/better? Can someone tell me how making the switch myself would help me?

 

[NeutronTech]

It's funny that with the arguments back and forth about software compatibility and what not, the biggest reason I had chosen to run Linux in my office was the better availability of software. lol Well, actually the availability of software to me on such a tight (nonexistant) budget. I was able to get pretty much everything I needed as far as software goes via Linux when starting up. Sadly Quickbooks not working led to me having to leave. However, the moment I discover that I can reliably use my QBO in Ubuntu, I'm going back. Don't get me wrong, I love Windows 7, but Linux was a much better fit for my business.

Local government has begun switching to Linux as well, after switching to openoffice a few years back.

 

[vdub12]

I would love to see photoshop installed on a fresh install of some version of Linux. No crossover, no wine, no work arounds, just a clean install of Linux and photo shop. If you can do that I'll be impressed but I don't think you can. Prove me wrong.

Ok I wanted to get out of this thread just because I found it going absolutely no where and completely off subject. However, this comment I find hilarious. You want me to use photoshop without wine or crossover. Then I want you to use the Windows version of photoshop on a MAC. Think about your argument here. You start out with wanting to install an AV program on an OS that has absolutely no virus threat and you finish off wanting to run windows software on an OS without allowing an API system for doing so.

Its obvious your have a bias with the Linux operating system and that's fine no one is forcing you to use it but your comments are way off base. You tell me to do something, I show it can be done and then as a comeback you take the tools to do it away and tell me to do it again. Photoshop was written for Windows. Since many Windows developers refuse to write software for Linux the community has created a way to do it. This software is not native and all I am saying is Linux has said the hell with native we will build a system to make it work. I don't see how you can think you have a point when your point keeps changing to fit your argument. You said I could not go in to walmart and buy some software or hardware and use it in Linux. I proved that you can. However, that's not good enough for you. Next you will tell me I have to do it without a monitor and keyboard.

If you don't want to use or support Linux then fine. When you have a customer that uses Linux send him or her to me and I will support them.

 

[NeutronTech]

If I sold refurb systems, I think I would install linux on them. You can get the most out of older hardware with it. I don't sell any systems. However, I would like to do my part in Linux awareness. I'm not sure in what way I can do so. People aren't going to dump their Windows installs in lieu of Linux. So, unless I start selling systems, I don't see much that I can do. I would like to get my hands on some Ubuntu posters and literature to put out, to get people interested, though.

EDIT: Oh, and if I were to get people on it, I would not support it myself. I would convince people to pay the fee if they choose to keep it and get support from them.

 

[Ccomp5950]

However, the moment I discover that I can reliably use my QBO in Ubuntu, I'm going back.

I use quickbooks online and have been hitting them with emails about it, I use a useragent changer to make my useragent say:

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2) Gecko/20100115 Firefox/3.6 (.NET CLR 3.5.30729)

and then quickbooks would let me in.

Now it appears you get a minor nag screen that says "We don't support Linux but you can get in" instead of just outright blocking it.

I use Linux Mint and it appears to work fine for me, might give it another try.

 

[gunslinger]

Ok I wanted to get out of this thread just because I found it going absolutely no where and completely off subject. However, this comment I find hilarious. You want me to use photoshop without wine or crossover. Then I want you to use the Windows version of photoshop on a MAC. Think about your argument here. You start out with wanting to install an AV program on an OS that has absolutely no virus threat and you finish off wanting to run windows software on an OS without allowing an API system for doing so.

Its obvious your have a bias with the Linux operating system and that's fine no one is forcing you to use it but your comments are way off base. You tell me to do something, I show it can be done and then as a comeback you take the tools to do it away and tell me to do it again. Photoshop was written for Windows. Since many Windows developers refuse to write software for Linux the community has created a way to do it. This software is not native and all I am saying is Linux has said the hell with native we will build a system to make it work. I don't see how you can think you have a point when your point keeps changing to fit your argument. You said I could not go in to walmart and buy some software or hardware and use it in Linux. I proved that you can. However, that's not good enough for you. Next you will tell me I have to do it without a monitor and keyboard.

If you don't want to use or support Linux then fine. When you have a customer that uses Linux send him or her to me and I will support them.

No, what I said was that without hacking and tinkering (something the average consumer should not have to do) off the rack software would not work with Linux. So you are admitting that I'm right. Point proven time to move on.


I use Linux. In fact I'm playing around with a few distros right now. Would I ever support it on a customers system? Not a chance. As I said, In 11 years I have had one customer who had Linux and she wanted it replaced with Windows but If I should ever see another one in the wild I'll be glad to send them your way.